I would've posted this last night, but I fell asleep!
These are my results from testing last night. No haste whatsoever (gear/totem/flurry), no weapon enchants (mongoose) and all auto attacks. Lengths of test were done at 5 minute intervals.
I would've posted this last night, but I fell asleep!
These are my results from testing last night. No haste whatsoever (gear/totem/flurry), no weapon enchants (mongoose) and all auto attacks. Lengths of test were done at 5 minute intervals.
Where are you getting your numbers from? Is that from a Mod? Cause if all of them are based on 5 minute series then something is broken with your calculator.
Test series one you have 47 procs with #5 and #7 but you have different PPM values for those 2 tests. #4 from there has 62 procs over 5 minutes which is 12.4 PPM but you have it listed as 11.7?
Running the number of procs listed and then dividing them all by 5; I'm showing an average of 10.24PPM for the 2.8 speed weapon, 10PPM for the 2.0 speed weapon and 9.54PPM for the 1.3 speed weapon.
Not really, we only get 4% haste for our 2 points they get 20% for their 6 and they get a "selfless" buff of an additional 5% melee haste for themselves. So they get 4.16% haste per point and we get 2%.....
That's a poor comparison, 16% of ours is a base ability of the class.
edit: Values recalculated by hand. A lot of the PPM values that was calculated by the addon were off. If anyone finds anymore errors or has any questions let me know.
Last edited by polocabbit : 10/05/08 at 6:28 PM.
"Doubt is the thief that often makes us fear to tread where we might have won.” —William Shakespeare
I find it quite odd that PPM value's are dependant on the speed of the weapon, that hardly makes sense. Even more, if they really wanted to make the PPM value's related to the weapon speed they should use a positive correlation (faster weapon? higher PPM) not a negative one. As it is right now slower weapons will have much higher buildup in maelstormstacks with instants factored in than fast weapons. Perhaps they really really really want us to use slow weapons?
[13:30] <JerleMinara> zyla you're cute you should've come to blizzcon
[13:31] <frot-prime> yeah you could have had sex with a dickgirl
[13:31] <Zyla> wouldnt be the first time
Just did a run with a 1.3 dagger no Flurry but with a constant WF Totem and enough haste to get the speed down to 0.98 seconds.
31:50 with 407 procs which is a 12.8PPM rate.
Originally Posted by Malan
That's a poor comparison, 16% of ours is a base ability of the class.
Actually that's a perfectly valid comparison. The comparison is between what we get for each talent point spent versus what a DK gets for their talent point. Change our Improved Windfury Totem to 1 point and then they are of equal value or add an alternative benefit to the talent so that it has an equal value.
They've stated before that all talent points are balanced based of a budget and that there is some measure of comparability between different classes and different specs individual talents (a talent that adds dps should add around x% additional dps). If that is true then our raid buff talents have far too low a value when compared to other classes talents that give the same buff.
I'm betting the developers are well aware of the issue and are just waiting for dps to look more balanced before figuring out how to handle it.
If they don't address it, then there won't be any incentive to spec those talents so we can put the points into something else unless the raid is missing Hunters or DKs.
I find it quite odd that PPM value's are dependant on the speed of the weapon, that hardly makes sense. Even more, if they really wanted to make the PPM value's related to the weapon speed they should use a positive correlation (faster weapon? higher PPM) not a negative one. As it is right now slower weapons will have much higher buildup in maelstormstacks with instants factored in than fast weapons. Perhaps they really really really want us to use slow weapons?
As I understand it, PPM is designed to make sure it procs a certain amount of times per minute. So a slow weapon and a fast weapon (in theory) should have the same number of procs (more or less). Therefore the faster the weapon the smaller the chance of procs compared to the slower weapon.
I think the standard Proc formula for TBC is:
Procs per hit = (Weapon speed) / (60 / Procs per minute) according to WoW Wiki:
I don't know if this has been updated for the Beta.
As I understand it, PPM is designed to make sure it procs a certain amount of times per minute. So a slow weapon and a fast weapon (in theory) should have the same number of procs (more or less). Therefore the faster the weapon the smaller the chance of procs compared to the slower weapon.
I think the standard Proc formula for TBC is:
Procs per hit = (Weapon speed) / (60 / Procs per minute) according to WoW Wiki:
I don't know if this has been updated for the Beta.
It's more that they seem to either have added an addendum to that rule or that there is a bug that occurs when weapon speed drops below 1 second.
Just did 22min36seconds with a 3.5 speed 2 hander, haste on gear dropped it to 3.18. No Windfury Totem and no Flurry. Total procs = 247 or 10.98PPM
Originally Posted by Exewut
I find it quite odd that PPM value's are dependant on the speed of the weapon, that hardly makes sense. Even more, if they really wanted to make the PPM value's related to the weapon speed they should use a positive correlation (faster weapon? higher PPM) not a negative one. As it is right now slower weapons will have much higher buildup in maelstormstacks with instants factored in than fast weapons. Perhaps they really really really want us to use slow weapons?
I'm wondering if they didn't set PPM to utilize haste rating from gear for it's calculations but that external haste (like Windfury Totem) doesn't actually change the PPM to compensate for the additional speed?
Maybe haste doesn't change the PPM number and that the 10% haste that copy of mine had from gear is why she was showing a higher proc rate then other people?
Someone told me that PPM mechanics are haste neutral but maybe that's wrong and maybe PPM just gets set based purely on base weapon speed and that the additional haste is just allowing more hits which is making it appear as if the PPM is actually higher then it really is?
Just did a 10 min test on ptr against a lvl70 dummy. Used syphon + shield no wf on the weapon but used normal gear, 8.43% haste + dst + mongoose + wf totem + flurry and then just auto attacked. Checked once at 5 min and had 16ish ppm and after the full 10 mins I had exactly 140 procs.
So haste does something for sure, now i need to do 1 set with wf totem only, 1 with flurry only and 1 with only haste from gear just to make sure.
Meh so many different setups, only had time to do one of each now, 10 min at each test:
Flurry only 101 procs 53% uptime on flurry
Wf totem only 104 procs
Haste from gear only(incl DST) 90 procs
No haste what so ever 94 procs (this is why i need to get more samples, i doubt that haste from gear actually lowers the ppm)
And ofc no abilities used, I thought the auto attack comment implied that.
What prob mess with the ppm is that I play on the eu ptr and have 300+ ms, on live i have 50ish ms.
Its 2.30am here now so if you want me to do more tests (since you prob cant compare your own results with mine unless you too have a high ms) I´ll continue tomorrow.
Was just messing around with the boss target dummy in org....WF/FT slow/fast
<snip>
Interesting how close your flameshock and earthshock were in damage. I'd guess a raid would push earthshock well ahead however (much more benefit from crit).
Did you not use lava lash or did it just not do enough damage to make the chart? And how much was static shock?
They've stated before that all talent points are balanced based of a budget and that there is some measure of comparability between different classes and different specs individual talents (a talent that adds dps should add around x% additional dps).
No, they that said that in general a talent is worth 1% of DPS. Obviously some talents fall to an extreme outside of that guidance. Mortal Strike and Storm Strike and Bloodthirst are obviously more than 1% of DPS per talent point. Improved Weapon Totems is the opposite extreme where each point is a lot less than 1% bonus.
Trying to compare talent placement and cost between classes and trees is going to result in exactly two things - frustration on the part of the guy making the comparison, and general amusement by most of the people reading it.
Just did a 10 min test on ptr against a lvl70 dummy. Used syphon + shield no wf on the weapon but used normal gear, 8.43% haste + dst + mongoose + wf totem + flurry and then just auto attacked. Checked once at 5 min and had 16ish ppm and after the full 10 mins I had exactly 140 procs.
So haste does something for sure, now i need to do 1 set without wf totem, 1 without flurry and 1 without haste from gear just to make sure.
As Malan kindly pointed out to me yesterday, yellow attacks raise the proc rate (take a look at wowwiki for more info). The only real test would be the following
1) single weapon, no haste
2) Single weapon high haste value (WF, Flurry, goose, haste gear)
4) Maybe one test with non gear haste, vs hear haste just to see if that makes a difference.
Trying to compare talent placement and cost between classes and trees is going to result in exactly two things - frustration on the part of the guy making the comparison, and general amusement by most of the people reading it.
You have to admit there is some pretty serious inequality going on with the "selfless" buffs and our buffs. 5 points for a version that is worse then what 2 other classes get for 1/2 points and the 2 point version comes with 2% Strength to boot to "thank" them for being "selfless" and thinking of the raid first by speccing it.
There isn't complete "fairness" involved when it comes to buffing/debuffing the raid. Easiest example I can come up with is Balance Druid versus affliction Warlock. Balance Druids can put up Earth and Moon (13% magic vulnerability) by using their standard damaging spells, while warlocks need to sacrifice a curse to do the same thing when that curse can be used for damaging purposes. There are some other examples of that, but just want to briefly go over it.
Right now the enhancement state seems to be pretty good for the most part with balancing and itemization. As for talent offering 1% damage, Malan can you please quote the blue that said that? It is just very hard for me to believe that talents are weighted equally, whether they are tier 1 or tier 9.
They're not weighted that equally, that's the point. The Blue post at the time just said that generally they try to make talents be 1% per point. I don't have a link to it, it was from a few weeks ago.
There isn't complete "fairness" involved when it comes to buffing/debuffing the raid. Easiest example I can come up with is Balance Druid versus affliction Warlock. Balance Druids can put up Earth and Moon (13% magic vulnerability) by using their standard damaging spells, while warlocks need to sacrifice a curse to do the same thing when that curse can be used for damaging purposes. There are some other examples of that, but just want to briefly go over it.
The exact means of applying the buffs isn't equal, but that's not what the selfish buffs are about - it's that they don't (supposedly) want the situation where you respec based on whether someone else is going to provide the buff or not. Malediction for instance, which brings up the warlock curse to match the moonkin, also grants +3% spell damage.
As I understand it, PPM is designed to make sure it procs a certain amount of times per minute. So a slow weapon and a fast weapon (in theory) should have the same number of procs (more or less). Therefore the faster the weapon the smaller the chance of procs compared to the slower weapon.
I think the standard Proc formula for TBC is:
Procs per hit = (Weapon speed) / (60 / Procs per minute) according to WoW Wiki:
I don't know if this has been updated for the Beta.
Yes that is true, but you forgot to factor in instants. Say you have these 2 hypthetical situations with a 30 PPM proc, just to make the math easy, and 1 instant attack on a 10s cooldown.
situation 1:
2.0 speed weapon -> each swing has a 100% chance to proc the effect, the instant swing gets 100% proc chance too, resulting in 6 procs per 10s, or 36 procs per minute.
situation 2:
1.0 speed weapon -> each swing has a 50% chance to proc the effect, the instant swing gets 50% proc chance too, resulting in 5.5 procs per 10s, or 33 procs per minute.
This basically means that if they would increase the PPM chance the faster the weapon if they want slow and fast weapon speeds to have similar uptimes and builduprates of Maelstorm weapon. That this is not the fact just shows that they are pushing us to slow/slow. Keep in mind that shamans have a lot of instants that can trigger procs, so this small difference in PPM will make a significant difference ingame.
Yes that is true, but you forgot to factor in instants. Say you have these 2 hypthetical situations with a 30 PPM proc, just to make the math easy, and 1 instant attack on a 10s cooldown.
situation 1:
2.0 speed weapon -> each swing has a 100% chance to proc the effect, the instant swing gets 100% proc chance too, resulting in 6 procs per 10s, or 36 procs per minute.
situation 2:
1.0 speed weapon -> each swing has a 50% chance to proc the effect, the instant swing gets 50% proc chance too, resulting in 5.5 procs per 10s, or 33 procs per minute.
This basically means that if they would increase the PPM chance the faster the weapon if they want slow and fast weapon speeds to have similar uptimes and builduprates of Maelstorm weapon. That this is not the fact just shows that they are pushing us to slow/slow. Keep in mind that shamans have a lot of instants that can trigger procs, so this small difference in PPM will make a significant difference ingame.
And according to this and this post the PPM for white hits will be recalculated based on hasted weapon speed while instant attacks will still use the unhasted weapon speed to determine the proc chance.
So in this case, assuming 2.0 unhasted weapon speed and 30 PP:
If your weapon speed dropped to 1.5 your proc chance for white hits would be 75% while the instant attack would remain at 100% resulting in an identical overall PPM.
So if I understood everything correctly haste effects should have no effect on the number of MW procs.
My first attack was at 10/5 00:54:33.640, and my last proc was at 10/5 02:55:33.734. Total number of procs seems to be 1191, over 121 minutes looks to be 9.84 PPM. Feel free to look through the log and see if I made any mistakes with my numbers, though.
0 Haste + Windfury Totem: ~12PPM
Did a 5 minute targeting dummy run with the 2.8 onehander and had 62 procs making it roughly 12.4PPM.
Starting the 5 minute run with a 1.5 dagger with WF totem down for comparison purposes now, I'll edit the results in after.
Yup, hasted 1.5 dagger with WF totem down also returned exactly 62 procs.
Some more Haste: ~16PPM
Just did a 10 min test on ptr against a lvl70 dummy. Used syphon + shield no wf on the weapon but used normal gear, 8.43% haste + dst + mongoose + wf totem + flurry and then just auto attacked. Checked once at 5 min and had 16ish ppm and after the full 10 mins I had exactly 140 procs.
It seems to be obvious that MW does scale with Haste.
edit: Values recalculated by hand. A lot of the PPM values that was calculated by the addon were off. If anyone finds anymore errors or has any questions let me know.
Nice addon, I was looking for something like that.
If you want it to reset the ppm counter in addition to the uptime counter on shit+leftclick add a "curr.procs = 0;" in line 917 of emitpU.lua.
I do believe that while it is true in TBC that no PPM effects scale with haste, come 3.0 and WotLK Paladins SoC does actually now scale properly with haste, so MW scaling with haste might well be an intended mechanic from blizz's point of view.
And according to this and this post the PPM for white hits will be recalculated based on hasted weapon speed while instant attacks will still use the unhasted weapon speed to determine the proc chance.
So in this case, assuming 2.0 unhasted weapon speed and 30 PP:
If your weapon speed dropped to 1.5 your proc chance for white hits would be 75% while the instant attack would remain at 100% resulting in an identical overall PPM.
So if I understood everything correctly haste effects should have no effect on the number of MW procs.
I wasn't really commenting on haste, I was commenting on this part of the post:
So a slow weapon and a fast weapon (in theory) should have the same number of procs (more or less). Therefore the faster the weapon the smaller the chance of procs compared to the slower weapon.
Which is incorrect when you factor in instants (meaning, unhasted slow weapons > unhasted fast weapons, even if they have an equal PPM when instants come in to play)
10/05/08, 5:39 PM
