Too many people are reporting 10 as the PPM rate, where no haste is involved, in tests long enough to have validity (2 hours). It seems more likely that either flurry or WF Totem or haste on your gear or all of them are acting neutral in regards to the mechanic which is why we are getting such high PPM rates under some circumstances.
The most exciting part of this is that there's only a 2% difference between the best configuration and the worst configuration. Making it much more likely that if you happen upon a higher iLvL item than you have, you can probably use it, regardless of speed.
It won't be perfect for the slot, obviously. But it may mean you won't have to raid naxx, passing on epic daggers, waiting for the slow fist to drop.
Well, you'll still want to pass on the epic daggers. They're normalized to 1.8s instead of 2.4 like everything else, right?
Out of curiosity does Flametongue Weapon procs produce MW procs? I'm not entirely sure myself and I can't find the answer through searching this thread. Terribly sorry if it's been stated; yes or no.
Well, you'll still want to pass on the epic daggers. They're normalized to 1.8s instead of 2.4 like everything else, right?
What's normalized?
<edit> as far as I know none of the shaman attacks are normalized, unless lava lash has been? Even if it was that would probably just make a fast dagger better with flametongue, not worse.
When we have more reliable data, we can work with the numbers then. It was wrong to present a hypothesis based on a small amount of data. I forgot the basic rule of theorycrafting which is to have reliable data before you do your math. Even if the math is right, the basis of it would still be wrong. I apologize.
For people who are having mana issues, if you have Elemental Focus, you can work on your Int or Critical Rating. Int increases your mana pool and increases your spell critical % which will trigger more Clearcastings. Critical Rating raises spell critical faster thus triggering more Clearcastings. Elemental Shamans in the old days used to stack spell critical rating because it not only increased their damage but also their mana efficiency. Granted, Elemental Focus was really nice in those days but it still works. Since critical rating is a decent DPS stat for us, stacking it shouldn't hurt your DPS much but should improve your mana efficiency.
As far as I know, FT procs are not triggering Maelstrom Weapon.
When we have more reliable data, we can work with the numbers then. It was wrong to present a hypothesis based on a small amount of data. I forgot the basic rule of theorycrafting which is to have reliable data before you do your math. Even if the math is right, the basis of it would still be wrong. I apologize.
For people who are having mana issues, if you have Elemental Focus, you can work on your Int or Critical Rating. Int increases your mana pool and increases your spell critical % which will trigger more Clearcastings. Critical Rating raises spell critical faster thus triggering more Clearcastings. Elemental Shamans in the old days used to stack spell critical rating because it not only increased their damage but also their mana efficiency. Granted, Elemental Focus was really nice in those days but it still works. Since critical rating is a decent DPS stat for us, stacking it shouldn't hurt your DPS much but should improve your mana efficiency.
As far as I know, FT procs are not triggering Maelstrom Weapon.
Int also increases the return from replenishment, and lets you get more out of your SR.
Wasn't Replenishment changed to base mana returns?
Anyway. Looks like Lava Lash works from melee crits from my tests, but hard to check on dummies as there is no real "miss" or "dodge" chance against them. Would need to be tested on the level 80 boss dummies, as opposed to the 70 boss dummies on the PTR.
I had a little bit of time to play around with the PPM while on break from work.
-Used the same dagger 1.3 speed and tried different sources of haste to see if the results differed.
-All tests were done over 10 minute increments.
-No WF imbue, instant attack, DST, or mongoose were used.
-Test done standing behind a level 60 dummy.
1.3 speed – 97 procs (no passive haste or WF totem)
1.15 speed – 101 proces (12.68% passive haste from gear)
1.08 speed – 125 procs (WF totem)
.98 speed – 124 procs (WF totem and 12.68% passive haste from gear)
Even though the test were very short it does show an odd coincidence that needs to be looked into further with much longer test.
I had a little bit of time to play around with the PPM while on break from work.
Even though the test were very short it does show an odd coincidence that needs to be looked into further with much longer test.
Did you have Flurry too or no? I'm guessing "no", based on the consistency of your results.
I would love to see the results with Flurry and without as well but from those results it's looking like WF Totem's haste doesn't change the PPM rate (which is why you get more procs) but the haste on gear does change the PPM rate.
Did you have Flurry too or no? I'm guessing "no", based on the consistency of your results.
I would love to see the results with Flurry and without as well but from those results it's looking like WF Totem's haste doesn't change the PPM rate (which is why you get more procs) but the haste on gear does change the PPM rate.
I think you might be miswording this conclusion. Did you mean to say that haste on gear doesn't change the ppm, and that the totem does? If you're talking about the proc chance, don't use 'ppm'.
Dropping the totem appears to have increased his ppm by ~20%.
Suryaa asked me to respond for him, he's at work. "I did not use Flurry. Since haste rating now consists of melee and spell haste, obviously its separate from the totem itself which is just melee."
"Maybe there's a bug where melee haste is upping the proc rate, where haste rating isn't. I'm just grasping at straws but its possibility."
"I've always wondered what it'd be like to have a prehensile penis, but you don't see me shitting up this thread with my idea." - Kaubel
If we are seeing that effect I think it is pretty clear it is a bug. All haste should be affecting us equally, so either haste should increase the amount of procs we see or it should do nothing.
Is there any reason why his crit rates are ridiculously high? Is there a bug somewhere currently or can we expect 55%+ crit to be standard at early WotLK gear levels?
I am trying to determine the best glyphs for Enh @ 70 & 80. To that end I am trying to calculate the dps increase of each of the following glyphs. In my example below I am using the recently posted WOW meter for % where applicable. Numbers would obvious vary with gear and spec I THINK I have the equations right, but I may have missed someting.
SoE- Use: Your Strength of Earth Totem also grants 1% melee and ranged critical strike chance.
dmg increase= 0.5%* (total % of dmg done by melee/ranged, assuming it does not include spells by pallies, poisons, etc)
this scales with raid size. In a 25man it could be 1-2% more damage from non-catsers. For 10 mans with <4 melee this becomes less useful. For 5 mans you are probably better of with another glyph.
StormStrike- Use: Increases the nature damage bonus from your Stormstrike ability by an additional 8%.
dmg increase= (LB dmg% + ES dmg%+ LS dmg%)*8%
Windfury- Use: The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.
dmg increase= ((total Additional AP DPS+ (Total AP DPS*1.5*crit%))*1.1 for UR) * (# of WF attacks/ total # of attacks)/total dps
What is the levle 80 WF AP DPS bonus?
My gut tells me that this is weak, especially in a WF/FT combo.
flametongue- Use: Increases spell critical strike chance by 2% while Flametongue Weapon is active.
dmg increase= (LB dmg% + ES dmg%+ FT dmg%)*2% with EF (level 80)
dmg increase= (LB dmg% + ES dmg%+ FT dmg%)*1% w/o EF (level 70)
Lighting shield- Use: Increases the damage from Lightning Shield by 20%.
dmg increase (Assuming SS orbs only)= LS %dmg *20%
I only put this in in case they change it later. I see no senario where this would be in consideration.
Earth Shock-Reduces the global cooldown triggered by your Earth Shock ability by 1 sec.
This is obviously intended to help with GCd issues in PVP, but it may be useful in PVE as well. But lowering the GCD you almost eliminate the GCD issues between SS and ES. This means you are not waiting for GCD's for either one and get more ES/min. Its hard to get an exact ## for this, as it depends on MW and how often MW procs force you to 'reset' your cycle.
dps increase= (# of extra ES casts/min/60 * ES dps%)
# of extar ES casts varies. I have no way to quantatatively calculate this. From my limited (~ 1 1/2 hour total) work on the PTR, you can go from casting ~ every 7.5 seconds to every 6.5 seconds each time you reset the cycle. Thats about 1-2 extra casts per minute. or ~ 0.16%-0.32% dps
-------------------
Using the recently posted % numbers, I got the following
SoE= 0.5%*(~39%)= 0.19% total raid damage. Looking at the raid DPS(~65k dps), that equals about 123.5 dps or 2.62% of the enh shammies dmg
SS= (12%+9+3%)*.08= 1.92% dmg
FT= (13%+12%+9%)*2%= 0.68% dmg
WF= ((WF DPS bonus+ (WF DPS Bonus*1.5*67%)*1.1 for UR)* (48 WF hits/471 total attacks)/4700 dps= ?? The WF attacks are about 10% of the total. That means if the AP bonus from the glyph gives 100 DPS, you gain a total of 0.002% dmg. Either I am doing something very wrong or this glyph is horrible.
LS= 3% total dmg*0.2= 0.06% dmg
ES= call it 0.16% dmg to be conservative
So looking at thesenumbers, the best glyphs are:
SoE
SS
FT
Of the last 3 I am guessing
ES
LS
WF
and looking at the differences between the 1st three glyphs and the 2nd three, I would guess that will remain the case regardless of gear.
I think you might be miswording this conclusion. Did you mean to say that haste on gear doesn't change the ppm, and that the totem does? If you're talking about the proc chance, don't use 'ppm'.
Dropping the totem appears to have increased his ppm by ~20%.
Nah, it's that the PPM rate is determined by the weapon speed and that rate isn't being affected by haste.
10PPM means a proc is expected every 6 seconds. So with a 2.6 weapon that gives a 2.6/6 = 43% chance per hit to gain a proc. With the PPM mechanic being seemingly unaffected by external haste the weapon speed increases but the chance to gain a proc per hit doesn't. So then you place a Windfury totem and the speed drops to 2.17 but the chance per hit stays the same at 43% which means you are actually getting a proc every 5 seconds or a PPM of 12.
The mechanic didn't change, the mechanic just didn't notice that your weapon was hitting faster then it was supposed to. It's the same way that instant casts don't affect the PPM rate even though they are causing the weapon to hit more often resulting in more procs then intended over the course of a minute.
Originally Posted by Khassandra
Suryaa asked me to respond for him, he's at work. "I did not use Flurry. Since haste rating now consists of melee and spell haste, obviously its separate from the totem itself which is just melee."
"Maybe there's a bug where melee haste is upping the proc rate, where haste rating isn't. I'm just grasping at straws but its possibility."
I think it's the difference between exogenous haste and endogenous haste. Haste from gear/equipment affects the PPM rate but external haste like Windfury Totem does not. The interesting one to test will be flurry and then we'll have to go down Toots list for all the rest.
Edited to add - Thanks Sprout, didn't realize Windfury's Glyph would be that bad, time to swap it out for a FT Glyph.
Editing again.
Your WF glyph math seems a bit off. I really don't know how to fix it coherently but from what I can tell with a 30% crit rate it should add 133 damage per Windfury hit. If you get a Windfury proc every 10 seconds that would be an additional 266 damage every 10 seconds or 26.6dps. Still a bad glyph compared to the FT one and one that won't scale at all with gear but not quite as bad as your equation was making it out to be.
Ran 3 tests with a basic spec, enough to get 5/5 Maelstrom but no Flurry, no passive from gear, no WF totem, no weapon imbues. Using a single 2.5 speed fist weapon with maxed weapon skill, attacking from behind on the level 60 dummy in Orgrimmar.
Start End Time(s) Swings Procs Swing PM PPM
Test 1 43:05.1 51:32.6 507.5 203 88 24 10.403941
Test 2 32:34.5 43:27.0 652.5 261 110 24 10.114943
Test 3 47:53.0 55:12.4 439.4 176 76 24.03277 10.377788
I think it's the difference between exogenous haste and endogenous haste. Haste from gear/equipment affects the PPM rate but external haste like Windfury Totem does not. The interesting one to test will be flurry and then we'll have to go down Toots list for all the rest.
Yea the more I thought about it the more I was leaning towards the same thing. A few things could be happening here.
A) There is an unintended affect from outside attack speed increases which isn't being taken into account during the proc chance percent calculation.
B) This is intended and needs to be compared to all other % increases in attack speed Improved Icy Talons in particular.
-If it is affected by WF totem and not Imp Icy Talons then maybe it is intended as a “selfless” buff for us to run inline with other classes. The talents are worded differently even if they give the same result, 20% melee haste vs 20% melee attack speed. So you could reason that they could have a different effect on our PPM of MW. It would give us 2.2 more PPM which isn't much but its better than nothing. It would give us a reason to drop our totem and add buff redundancy to the raid, which always was the goal of the buff/debuff change.
If someone could pin down a DK friend of theirs for 30 minutes or so then it would give us a better idea of what we are looking at here.
Yea the more I thought about it the more I was leaning towards the same thing. A few things could be happening here.
A) There is an unintended affect from outside attack speed increases which isn't being taken into account during the proc chance percent calculation.
B) This is intended and needs to be compared to all other % increases in attack speed Improved Icy Talons in particular.
-If it is affected by WF totem and not Imp Icy Talons then maybe it is intended as a “selfless” buff for us to run inline with other classes. The talents are worded differently even if they give the same result, 20% melee haste vs 20% melee attack speed. So you could reason that they could have a different effect on our PPM of MW. It would give us 2.2 more PPM which isn't much but its better than nothing. It would give us a reason to drop our totem and add buff redundancy to the raid, which always was the goal of the buff/debuff change.
If someone could pin down a DK friend of theirs for 30 minutes or so then it would give us a better idea of what we are looking at here.
Im not one to speculate....who am I kidding of course I am!!
What rounced said does make sense and should be the goal of our testing IMHO. If the PPM is based upon paper-doll weapon speed and not actual swing time from flurrry and WF weapon I am guessing this is unintended and will be nerfed. Which would be fine as long as they balance DPS elsewhere.
Time to run some sims using the tools provided. Im going to tey to get my hands on some crappy greens from the AH and see what I can see.
Ran 3 tests with a basic spec, enough to get 5/5 Maelstrom but no Flurry, no passive from gear, no WF totem, no weapon imbues. Using a single 2.5 speed fist weapon with maxed weapon skill, attacking from behind on the level 60 dummy in Orgrimmar.
Start End Time(s) Swings Procs Swing PM PPM
Test 1 43:05.1 51:32.6 507.5 203 88 24 10.403941
Test 2 32:34.5 43:27.0 652.5 261 110 24 10.114943
Test 3 47:53.0 55:12.4 439.4 176 76 24.03277 10.377788
Adding some odd data... Same deal for the most part, except now I'm running with Windfury Totem for some haste. Paper doll says 2.08 speed with the tooltip not indicating that there's any haste active which seems odd (or more likely a tooltip display bug). Seems kind of odd that simply adding WF totem makes the PPM become much less consistent.
Start End Time(s) Swings Procs Swing PM PPM
Test 1 05:32.4 10:30.6 298.2 143 74 28.77263581 14.88933602
Test 2 13:15.7 23:05.5 589.8 283 118 28.78942014 12.00406918
Test 3 28:08.1 36:17.2 489.1 235 94 28.82846044 11.53138418
Adding some odd data... Same deal for the most part, except now I'm running with Windfury Totem for some haste. Paper doll says 2.08 speed with the tooltip not indicating that there's any haste active which seems odd (or more likely a tooltip display bug). Seems kind of odd that simply adding WF totem makes the PPM become much less consistent.
Start End Time(s) Swings Procs Swing PM PPM
Test 1 05:32.4 10:30.6 298.2 143 74 28.77263581 14.88933602
Test 2 13:15.7 23:05.5 589.8 283 118 28.78942014 12.00406918
Test 3 28:08.1 36:17.2 489.1 235 94 28.82846044 11.53138418
2.0s level 18 mace.
No flurry no WF totem, no haste from items-
101 procs in 10 min
(10.1 PPM)
Flurry, WF totem(20%), and SoE totem to raise Flurry %, no haste from items-
133 procs in 10 min. 50% flurry uptime.
(13.3 PPM)
No WF, Flurry , SoE totem for more flurry up time
48% flurry up time
105 procs in 10 min
(10.5 PPM)
Fuulish, are you running a toon called polocabbit on the ptr? Just curius as he was doing similar tests to me on the same dummy/ In regards to your variance, your test times are probably a bit small. Mine are as well, but the smaller the sample the greater the std deviation (assuimng I understand stats...)
Nah, it's that the PPM rate is determined by the weapon speed and that rate isn't being affected by haste.
10PPM means a proc is expected every 6 seconds. So with a 2.6 weapon that gives a 2.6/6 = 43% chance per hit to gain a proc. With the PPM mechanic being seemingly unaffected by external haste the weapon speed increases but the chance to gain a proc per hit doesn't. So then you place a Windfury totem and the speed drops to 2.17 but the chance per hit stays the same at 43% which means you are actually getting a proc every 5 seconds or a PPM of 12.
Ah, I read it backwards. I'd use the words 'proc rate' to refer to that concept - 'procs per minute' is already a rate. But I could be the only one confused, so I'm sorry for the derail.
flametongue- Use: Increases spell critical strike chance by 2% while Flametongue Weapon is active.
dmg increase= (LB dmg% + ES dmg%+ FT dmg%)*2% with EF (level 80)
FT= (13%+12%+9%)*2%= 0.68% dmg
This is not correct, as crit always suffers from diminishing returns, because it cannot affect spells that are already critting, it can only convert noncrits to crits. So assuming a 30% spellcrit rate (fairly low in a raid setting), the math is (.13+.12+.09)*.02*.7= +0.476% DPS increase. Oddly you noted this in your SoE math, but there it is more likely that crit will be more valuable, as there are a number of feedbacks from crit for most melee classes. Anyhew, it is definitely the most powerful glyph in a 25man setting.
Yes, the WF glyph is that bad, as are other effects (such as totems and the old Improved WF totem) which affect WF's AP bonus only. (eg. one of the new 80 ones is significantly worse than Stonebreaker's Totem).
It will be basically impossible to actually determine the efficacy of the ES glyph until the simulator supports it, but I have a feeling its contribution will be significant.
10/06/08, 2:53 PM
