Can we agree not to post arbitrary EP values with no information about gear, talents or buffs/debuffs? It only makes sense for a common config, like the one included in Enhsim.
Regarding Lava Lash with WF/WF, you can always choose to only use it when WF is on cooldown (like we currently prefer to use SS if WF is not on cooldown), if that turns out to be superior.
Is the reason that agility is relative low (would have expected that it would be better then ap) that it only gives melee crit in the crit part and not spell crit (and a decent of our dmg is spell dmg)?
I don't have the set on PTR to check how it fares and it's not in sim.
Considering slow/slow WF/WF is still best that's a no. Don't use quick offhanders. Mind that this might change at a later gear tier in wotlk raiding but up til naxx25 slow/slow is better eventhough imbues change to WF/FT when you get elemental fury.
Red - Glinting Pyrestone
Yellow - Rigid Lionseye
Blue - Balanced Shadowsong Amethyst
After Spell hit is capped;
Red - Bright Crimson Spinel
Yellow - Wicked Pyrestone
Blue - Balanced Shadowsong Amethyst
I'm going to gem my hit rating to 195, and the have some spicy hot talbuk.
Did you do your math correct? 1 hit rating grants .08% spell hit at level 70 so to get 14% hit(assuming you're not draenei, and have either a spriest or a boomkin in the raid for the 3% hit they give) You only need 175 hit rating to hit 14%(175*.08=14[%]) Melee hit from hit rating is .06% per point so don't do your math based on the % your character sheet is showing for melee hit.
Also for your blue gems I would think Jagged Seaspray(5crit/7stam) would be better as it counts towards your spell critical hits as well.
Did you do your math correct? 1 hit rating grants .08% spell hit at level 70 so to get 14% hit(assuming you're not draenei, and have either a spriest or a boomkin in the raid for the 3% hit they give) You only need 175 hit rating to hit 14%(175*.08=14[%]) Melee hit from hit rating is .06% per point so don't do your math based on the % your character sheet is showing for melee hit.
Also for your blue gems I would think Jagged Seaspray(5crit/7stam) would be better as it counts towards your spell critical hits as well.
Is it not better to use 12.615 spell hit rating = 1% spell hit, and 15.769 melee hit rating = 1% melee hit rather than relying on percentages to only 2 dp? Rounding your figures up gives 1/0.08 = 12.5 hit ie: almost 1% variance and melee your figure gives 16.67 rating which is 5.7% out.
Author of ShockAndAweEnhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.
Is it not better to use 12.615 spell hit rating = 1% spell hit, and 15.769 melee hit rating = 1% melee hit rather than relying on percentages to only 2 dp? Rounding your figures up gives 1/0.08 = 12.5 hit ie: almost 1% variance and melee your figure gives 16.67 rating which is 5.7% out.
Yeah I guess that makes more sense, then 12.615*14(for non-draenei) yields ~176.61 rounds up to 177 hit rating needed.
I am still kinda unsure about WF/WF at 70, 'cause LL will cause the OH to proc WF more than the MH.
While it's true that you get more offhand procs, you also get more chances for WF overall. Simulator suggests a 3 dps reduction in total WF damage when you don't use Lavalash with dual WF on 2.7s weapons, and a 1 dps reduction with dual 2.5s. Total DPS goes down by about 100.
Folks have an unnatural fear of the Windfuried offhand. Yes, it's one reason our DPS numbers are so RNG streaky, but on average it's better dps and is pretty hard to game without losing time to the GCD (which can have a significant DPS cost). I'm reasonably sure that your best overall DPS will come from hitting your cooldowns as soon as they come up, biggest DPS contributors first...5 stacked lightning bolt, then earth shock, then stormstrike, lavaburst last.
Logged into the PTR last night. The new rotation feels pretty...chaotic, to me, in a good way. I'm easily doing more work than I am live while twisting, and even soloing I have to manage mana to avoid running out before SR is up.
Clearcasting will be a godsend. I can't imagine being able to use lightning shield without it. I'll pick it up long before the bigger crits and am debating whether it might be a better leveling tool than ghost wolf and feral spirit.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 10/09/08 at 10:54 AM.
I thought so too, but placing it above SS in priority offers higher simulated DPS.
The basic principle of priority is to always hit your biggest damage producers as soon as you can, unless there's some other mechanic that benefits from an alternate rotation. With 4 SS charges available for self consumption, we're unlikely to use them all up.
Earth shock does more damage but in 2.0 SS is prioritized because it is useful to proc WF, and so in simulation it's suggested to come first. In 3.0, we have about 34% more swings to proc WF, and it's apparently so much that waiting 1.5s to strike every now and then isn't as big a deal as waiting to shock.
I'm reasonably sure that your best overall DPS will come from hitting your cooldowns as soon as they come up, biggest DPS contributors first...5 stacked lightning bolt, then earth shock, then stormstrike, lavaburst last.
I agree. We, for the entire last expansion, have engrained in ourselves the need to try and get mainhand WF procs. It was because this was the one thing we could do with timing to increase our dps (besides twisting).
Now what is really important from WF is not so much the damage they do, which is still significant, but the fact that they can proc MW. We want a WF ASAP from when the cooldown is up, offhand or not.
In regards to clearcasting, has anybody done testing on what we can expect in a raid enviroment for our mana, either in 3.0 or the expansion? A couple people have mentioned it, but I don't think anything clear has come out. How fast can we stack MW before it becomes a drain on our mana? Are we useless w/o replenishment? I sure hope we are not, because ideally replenishment should be going to healers or even mages before us.
I thought so too, but placing it above SS in priority offers higher simulated DPS.
The basic principle of priority is to always hit your biggest damage producers as soon as you can, unless there's some other mechanic that benefits from an alternate rotation. With 4 SS charges available for self consumption, we're unlikely to use them all up.
Earth shock does more damage but in 2.0 SS is prioritized because it is useful to proc WF, and so in simulation it's suggested to come first. In 3.0, we have about 34% more swings to proc WF, and it's apparently so much that waiting 1.5s to strike every now and then isn't as big a deal as waiting to shock.
Yes, I've found this to be the case as well on PTR.
In regards to clearcasting, has anybody done testing on what we can expect in a raid enviroment for our mana, either in 3.0 or the expansion? A couple people have mentioned it, but I don't think anything clear has come out. How fast can we stack MW before it becomes a drain on our mana? Are we useless w/o replenishment? I sure hope we are not, because ideally replenishment should be going to healers or even mages before us.
Mana usage and gains are pretty easy to calculate but so many people still asking that so I show some calculations.
70lvl:
Sim show that we use about 650mana per second with full dps rotation this is 15600 mana per 2minute.
With convection mana usage drops to 580mp5 or 13920.
Let say that max mana is M.
Normal mana gains are at 2min.:
Shamanist rage: Full mana bar. os 1M.
JoW: Least once in 5s. 24 *0.02* M.
Replenish: 0.0025 * 120 * M.
Mana spring: 50mp5 * 24 or 62.5mp5 *24(talented)
Water shield: 50mp5 * 24.
When you know what mana gains you get and what is your max mana pool you can solve this problem.
Example: I got buffed 7k mana pool.
Usage is 15600.
Gains:
7000 shamanist rage.
3360JoW.
1200water shield.
1200 mana spring.
2100 Replenish.
Total: 14860.
14860 - 15600 = -740
So I need 740mana from water shield globes or improved water elemental. Better idea is spec to convection.
At 70lvl Static shock is big no no. But this isn't problem you have only one point to it so its bette get imp. ghost wolf.
My mana pool is fairly high. All full leather soldiers are in trouble.
At 80lvl we should get better mail gear and elemental focus. Our mana pool almoust doubled but usage only increase by 20%.
Enhsim (which is turning into a lovely program; thank you, tukez) gives us mana burn stats, both per second and per 2 minutes.
It claims my current burn is about 15k per 2 minutes (with Elemental Focus, it's 13k). Water shield plus mana spring is 100 mp5, reducing the burn by 2000 per 2 to 13k (11k). Mana probably shouldn't be an issue during the 15s of SR, but I'd still need a mana pool of about 11.4k (9.625) to never go OOM.
I have around 5100 mana.
Replenishment seems unlikely. We should be able to go all out with a Judgment of the Wisdom, though. Think I'll buy my ret paladin a cake...
You know, tukez...if going OOM is as much a likelihood as it feels is, a simulator that properly modeled a mana pool would actually ascribe additional EP value to both int and mp5...possibly even spirit. It never mattered in BC, but it looks like we'll be playing the mana game too.
Edit: Hadn't thought about convection...this talent will surely be more valuable when leveling then concussion, probably in 5 mans too.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 10/09/08 at 12:26 PM.
Enhsim (which is turning into a lovely program; thank you, tukez) gives us mana burn stats, both per second and per 2 minutes.
It claims my current burn is about 15k per 2 minutes (with Elemental Focus, it's 13k). Water shield plus mana spring is 100 mp5, reducing the burn by 2000 per 2 to 13k (11k). Mana probably shouldn't be an issue during the 15s of SR, but I'd still need a mana pool of about 11.4k (9.625) to never go OOM.
I have around 5100 mana.
Replenishment seems unlikely. We should be able to go all out with a Judgment of the Wisdom, though. Think I'll buy my ret paladin a cake...
You know, tukez...if going OOM is as much a likelihood as it feels is, a simulator that properly modeled a mana pool would actually ascribe additional EP value to both int and mp5...possibly even spirit. It never mattered in BC, but it looks like we'll be playing the mana game too.
Edit: Hadn't thought about convection...this talent will surely be more valuable when leveling then concussion, probably in 5 mans too.
With LvB no longer available on 5MW Call of Flame is a lot less desirable. Thus the 2 we spent there can go into Convection. This still leaves 1 in Static Shock and getting the puppies for level 70 raiding.
This does seem a good time to list the issues I feel we still have...
1) Imp. SS giving SS charges - are they going to be useful can we reliably do 4 nature dmg in 8 sec, what exactly can consume these charges? How often can we reliably use them up?
2) Flame Shock seems to be dead now
3) Mana usage is looking very tight especially in 5s and 10s if no replenishment.
Possible solutions :
Give fire & frost back to SS - it was taken away to fix LvB with MW now LvB is no longer possible with MW we should ask for this back it would help fix 1 & 2, as it would boost FS and allow LL to consume a charge (assuming it counts as fire dmg now I type it I am doubting myself).
Static Shock is wasted if we have to use a water shield to keep mana up. Giving static shock a value in boosting water shield would mean the talent points are not wasted and would assist with mana issues.
Last edited by Levva : 10/09/08 at 12:46 PM.
Author of ShockAndAweEnhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.
You know, tukez...if going OOM is as much a likelihood as it feels is, a simulator that properly modeled a mana pool would actually ascribe additional EP value to both int and mp5...possibly even spirit. It never mattered in BC, but it looks like we'll be playing the mana game too.
Edit: Hadn't thought about convection...this talent will surely be more valuable when leveling then concussion, probably in 5 mans too.
As much as I don't want to have to start considering mana as a DPS requirement, I have to second this request. With Judgment of Wisdom and Replenishment, I highly doubt mana will be even remotely a concern in 25-mans, I think we'll only be able to really count on Replenishment in 10-mans, with some groups getting Wisdom and others having to deal without it. However, adding mana consumption and gains to the sim is going to be a bigger task than it sounded to me at first.
Factors that would need to be considered, starting with the obvious:
1) Total mana pool. Easy, user-entered.
2) Mana consumption. Easy, abilities have a semi-fixed cost, though Elemental Focus would have to be implemented, as well as having other mana-saving talents user-specified (like Convection).
3) Passive mana gains. Mana Spring, Replenishment, JoW. Spirit regen for the rare occasion that we're so out of mana that we can't cast anything for five seconds. Not too bad.
4) Shamanistic Rage. This is where it gets a little more complex. On-use AP trinkets can have an extremely large effect on Shamanistic Rage, but having to consider this introduces some cooldown management questions. Do you not hit the trinket until you hit SR for the first time? Do you wait and not hit SR until the second trinket use? Etc.
5) Mana potions. When is it worth using one/best to use one? Another cooldown management question.
And probably more I didn't think of off the top of my head.
Mana management is annoying and can get complex... I'm not certain it's worth the effort to try to model all the various factors just so those of us who can't rely on infinite mana will have some vague EP values for mp5 and intellect (beyond its affect on AP, that is). It would be appreciated, certainly! Just not a high priority.
Levva that build make no sense. You talk about call of flame at 70lvl but LvB is 75lvl talent. So that talent wasn't never good at 70lvl. You take one point static shock which cost 50mp5 + globes and do 29dps. Then you put two point convection those are 14mp5 per point. Concussion do 6dps per point. Call of flame do 7dps per point. If you think you are mana limited then max out convection if you are after that do not take static shock. We should be mana limited at 70lvl like my mana calculations showed and this lead to mana starved build. build. Luckily 3.0 bosses are very short duration and at 80lvl mana problems are lots smaller.
The basic principle of priority is to always hit your biggest damage producers as soon as you can, unless there's some other mechanic that benefits from an alternate rotation. With 4 SS charges available for self consumption, we're unlikely to use them all up.
Sure but if you lead with an Earth Shock you're not going to have the Storm Strike debuff up.
Re: mana - For comparison sake, I've got almost a 12k mana pool on beta at level 80 having now swapped out all of my TBC gear for Naxx/heroic gear, while wearing 3 pieces of rogue leather (no Int).
Well the points that are in Call of Flame are to boost the damage of the Searing Totem, but that is only actually useful once we have Elemental Fury. So yeah no point in putting points in there atm. But putting 1 pt into static shock, when we are going to have to rely on water shield for the mana regen, is pointless. It would be better just to put that point into Convection or Improved Shields. I would think something like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would be more viable for people with a rogue sized mana pool (5kish unbuffed).
I agree. We, for the entire last expansion, have engrained in ourselves the need to try and get mainhand WF procs. It was because this was the one thing we could do with timing to increase our dps (besides twisting).
Now what is really important from WF is not so much the damage they do, which is still significant, but the fact that they can proc MW. We want a WF ASAP from when the cooldown is up, offhand or not.
In regards to clearcasting, has anybody done testing on what we can expect in a raid enviroment for our mana, either in 3.0 or the expansion? A couple people have mentioned it, but I don't think anything clear has come out. How fast can we stack MW before it becomes a drain on our mana? Are we useless w/o replenishment? I sure hope we are not, because ideally replenishment should be going to healers or even mages before us.
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
As much as I don't want to have to start considering mana as a DPS requirement, I have to second this request. With Judgment of Wisdom and Replenishment, I highly doubt mana will be even remotely a concern in 25-mans, I think we'll only be able to really count on Replenishment in 10-mans, with some groups getting Wisdom and others having to deal without it. However, adding mana consumption and gains to the sim is going to be a bigger task than it sounded to me at first.
Factors that would need to be considered, starting with the obvious:
1) Total mana pool. Easy, user-entered.
2) Mana consumption. Easy, abilities have a semi-fixed cost, though Elemental Focus would have to be implemented, as well as having other mana-saving talents user-specified (like Convection).
3) Passive mana gains. Mana Spring, Replenishment, JoW. Spirit regen for the rare occasion that we're so out of mana that we can't cast anything for five seconds. Not too bad.
4) Shamanistic Rage. This is where it gets a little more complex. On-use AP trinkets can have an extremely large effect on Shamanistic Rage, but having to consider this introduces some cooldown management questions. Do you not hit the trinket until you hit SR for the first time? Do you wait and not hit SR until the second trinket use? Etc.
5) Mana potions. When is it worth using one/best to use one? Another cooldown management question.
And probably more I didn't think of off the top of my head.
Mana management is annoying and can get complex... I'm not certain it's worth the effort to try to model all the various factors just so those of us who can't rely on infinite mana will have some vague EP values for mp5 and intellect (beyond its affect on AP, that is). It would be appreciated, certainly! Just not a high priority.
Yea, just testing dps for about 20 minutes with a ret paladin last night showed me that. i physically CANNOT go out of mana with JOW up. Maelstrom was stacking within ~8 seconds(just a little after chain lightning came off cooldown). Searing totem, Lightning Shield(while having aggro from the Servant who was hitting me) were all being used. I never had to shamanistic rage and i was free to use my trinket for extra ap every cooldown(i tie my Berserkers Call into a macro with Shammervate).
On a side note does anyone have a MW stack mod? i just want a large 1,2,3,4,5 on my screen that i could move(preferably right near my DisqoDice bars) rather then sifting through all my buffs...
Yea, just testing dps for about 20 minutes with a ret paladin last night showed me that. i physically CANNOT go out of mana with JOW up. Maelstrom was stacking within ~8 seconds(just a little after chain lightning came off cooldown). Searing totem, Lightning Shield(while having aggro from the Servant who was hitting me) were all being used. I never had to shamanistic rage and i was free to use my trinket for extra ap every cooldown(i tie my Berserkers Call into a macro with Shammervate).
On a side note does anyone have a MW stack mod? i just want a large 1,2,3,4,5 on my screen that i could move(preferably right near my DisqoDice bars) rather then sifting through all my buffs...
I believe JoW and JoL are broken atm - proccing 100% of the time with no cd or some such.
Currently, 916 of my dps comes directly or indirectly from my spells (calculated by running a sim with a LB/ES/SS/LL priority and a second with no priority) . This is about 39% of my total DPS. Thus, mana management is going to be as important, if not more important, than other talents that improve this 39% of DPS.
We basically have three talents that aren't in base builds that can help with mana managment: Convection, Elemental Fury and 3 points of Ancestral Knowledge. Improved Shields is 7.5 mp5 for three talent points which sucks.
With 5/5 Convection and no EF, avg. mana burn goes down to 13.2k per 2 mins, or 11.1k with EF. Self buffs reduce this by 2000 to 12.2k and 9.1k.
Making the assumption that for 15s out of every 2 minutes, mana doesn't matter (since SR should return any mana spent during this period), we'll need about 10675 or 9100 mana available to us, through the course of 2 minutes, to not go OOM and be unable to cast.
Given the burn above, I do about .075 dps per point of mana. I get .48 dps from 1 ap. Thus, until I've reached the threshhold where I never run out of mana, 6.4 mana in 1.45 minutes = 1 AP.
1 point of int with 2/5 AK is worth 15.6 mana, so until I reach the threshold, 1 point of int is worth 2.44 AP IN ADDITION TO the value it already has from increased AP and spell crit. For my stat weights, this makes it more important than expertise or hit rating until I've increased by mana pool by 5575. (By this calculation 1 mp5 is worth 3.28 AP).
(Note: one strange thing about this means of calculation is that with EF, the AP value of mana actually increases, since it takes less mana to create the same DPS. The benefit, obviously, is needing less mana to hit the threshold where you never run out).
The hard part of all of this is that there's a fair amount of uncertainty. SR doesn't always provide perfect returns, and your raid makeup may change. Furthermore, once you reach the threshold the value of int would be significantly reduced and the value of mp5 is 0.
However, it may not be all that crazy to gem your leather gear with int or use mana consumables. It's all going to depend on your build and your raid, which is why a simulator with this knowledge (and the ability to calculate 5s rules, etc) would be ideal.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 10/09/08 at 1:55 PM.
However, it may not be all that crazy to gem your leather gear with int or use mana consumables. It's all going to depend on your build and your raid, which is why a simulator with this knowledge (and the ability to calculate 5s rules, etc) would be ideal.
We should never be able to take advantage of the 5s rule, if we can, we're doing something wrong.
If you run completely out of mana, you're spending a lot of time in the 5s rule.
You could claim that running out of mana is "doing something wrong," and I'd agree with you. On paper it looks very costly, which is why I want to brainstorm ways of avoiding it even when raid comp isn't complimentary.
Besides, there is a chance we'll have 5s free after casting our 6s abilities; slim, probably doesn't return much, but it's there.
If you run completely out of mana, you're spending a lot of time in the 5s rule.
You could claim that running out of mana is "doing something wrong," and I'd agree with you. On paper it looks very costly, which is why I want to brainstorm ways of avoiding it even when raid comp isn't complimentary.
Besides, there is a chance we'll have 5s free after casting our 6s abilities; slim, probably doesn't return much, but it's there.
If you have the glyph for 1/2 second GCD on ES, and you don't get a 5-stack of MW, I believe it's possible to have LL, ES, and SS on CD for 5 seconds, though I would imagine it would be pretty rare. I would imagine it would be possible to model it in the sim.
0.0 SS
1.5 ES
2.0 LL
----5.5 second gap----
7.5 ES off CD
10/09/08, 8:00 AM
