If someone could actually go and test that, it might be a nice piece of information to have. While the initial issue seems to be pretty resolved, basic information on game mechanics is always welcome.

Before someone goes and tells me to do it myself, I'm at work and lucky to be able to post at all.

Fair enough Rounced, I stand corrected. It's often done here that "stupid posts" are edited out to nothing, but I'll let my posts stand as a bad example of what not to do.

Sunwell geared shamans should take a look at WF/FT, slow/fast set up.

The PPM feels high in the game for an obvious reason. Blizz said they inserted the PPM incorrectly and it's using a PPM that is appropriate for a 2H weapon. Add dual wield and instant attacks and it's proccing much more aggressively than what they originally intended.

A complete thought generally consists of Who, What, When, Where, and most importantly in this case, why.

But they also said that they would have to boost our dps from somewhere else if they nerfed that so they are gonna leave it in place for now since it feels fun and our current dps is where they want it to be.

All my runs with the sim in my sunwell gear shows WF/WF slow/slow being better until lvl 74+ when your crit and hit drop off, and WF/FT slow/slow is shown as better than slow/fast (wf/wf slow/slow is also showing better than slow/fast wf/ft).
As hit, crit and AP go up the difference between wf/ft and wf/wf (both slow/slow) closes from 90ish dps diff to about 30ish difference, not counting the new lava lash glyph.

May be just my sim, but i'm goin by it and glad for it, slow/slow will still be the pvp way to go, and not having to get diff weapons for pve and pvp eases my concerns alot.

I want to start off by sayin that I love these forums and theorycrafting (even though i dont totally understand it all), and i appreciate all the time everyone is putting into this. But, i had few questions in mind when I came to this site today,

*what's max out on armor pen now?
*what does my hit need to be at?
*what is the best dps spec?

Just to name a few of the questions i have at this point. And I'm sure in the 134 pages thus far some of this information is in here and I might have missed it. I was hopin to see a new thread started with some of the concrete base information, because, this is the only site i trust to have the best information overall.

I've noticed better results with WF/FT too (1900-2300 dps WF/WF, and 1950-2400 dps WF/FT on the dummies, using slow/slow weapons), maybe it's because of my 10.46% passive haste, I'm not sure.

Of course I may be wrong, and WF/WF is really a better raid option for me at the moment, but I did 3650 dps on Brutallus yesterday (using WF/FT, and full consumables), so I can't complain.

That's probably a bad idea.

Check the Enhancement Shaman Think Thank.

That thread is old news

Toots Hepcat made a nice "Pocket Guide to 3.0" there, check again.

That's very impressive, any chance you would mind posting a WWS and Armory? That's quite a bit above what I've seen on some of the best WWS's. I'd like to see what it looks like, maybe I'm doing something wrong.

WF/WF vs WF/FT

The difference between the two is going to be small (~100dps or so) and likely to fade into the background when raiding.

WF/FT will be the better option once we have access to Elemental Fury.

Until then WF/WF should be better.

If you think differently then use the Sim and model your exact stats (including the expected raid buffs your raid will be using) and run a few thousand hours with both options but keep in mind that we are still a bursty RNG spec and with a difference as small as ~100dps it is easy for it to get lost in the 3-4 minutes a boss encounter will take. That's why we use things like the Sim, to display those small differences so we can do our maximum potential.

But since it is such a small difference, if you like the way that WF/FT feels then go ahead and use it. Right now bosses are dying so fast anyway I really don't think your losing ~100 potential dps is going to make any real difference at all.

<the ~100dps I keep mentioning is just the difference I saw b/w WF/WF and WF/FT with my gear and expected raid buffs after I ran a few thousands hours in the sim>

Two things.

1 - I do not have the time available anymore that I did when I originally wrote up and edited all the think tank stuff. Work has picked up quite a bit, and my evenings are more restricted (being married does that). I need a *lot* of help from the community for the think tank article. That means people providing specific changes, with the supporting evidence that I can incorporate. If you can help out, post them in the think tank article, not in this thread. I frequently skim this thread without really reading it because of the level of "durr what hit do I need" idiocy that's cropping up. (Also as an FYI, if you post stupid shit in the wiki, I delete the post)


2 - Talked with Rounced last night in-game I raised an issue and would like some feedback. One of the things that helped out for quite awhile was that our initial EP values weren't based on a sim, they were provided by Tornhoof and others doing some hand calculations. They weren't really challenged until Yo produced his sim. Until that point, we had a single set of values for gear that we were able to use to evaluate and rank order things like Gems and Trinkets and Enchants and Consumables.

As I said, that lasted until we had a sim. At that point, everyone started having their individual values and the conversations about trinkets and such began to break down as people said "oh yah this is using my own values". Eventually I just grabbed some "best of this raiding tier" gear sets and did sim runs to get an approximate value of what someone might use for EP at those levels. (For what it's worth, those are the numbers that I always personally used in-game, I never really bothered using 'personal' EP values)

Now looking forward this problem is going to be exasperated even more, as fast weapons have become viable (they may not be the *best* but they're close enough to be competitive and viable). I'm not sure that it's going to be possible to really describe a "general EP system", especially given the differences in gear between 10 and 25 mans (and I really have no interest in sorting that out).

So, any thoughts on what the solution is here?

Maybe supply sample EP values, but underline that YMMV for these. EP is far more fleeting these days so "this is a good sample" is more misleading. Just look at Ag, crit and haste values for different people. Ag and crit end up both under and over AP while haste range from 2.3 to my personal low of 0.31. Given the options I'd say no sample EP, but that won't stop lazy people nagging for numbers.

Having EP figures for BiS is still pretty decent though. I asked for such numbers back in the day because I was re-rolling from resto and my gear was horrible. These samples would still be bound by what options the people supplying them use. OH WF/FT shifts EP a great deal. Maybe set "best" sim options too?

I tried out Lava Lash with a shield equipped yesterday (was tanking HHM, silly I know)

It was enacting the cooldown, and using mana, but not causing any damage. I wondered about putting a shield spike on my shield and seeing if it did it's damage. If no one sees a use for this, I'll report it as a bug, or perhaps ask a Beta tester to see if it's in the Beta build still.

I hope nobody's blaming our loyal archivist, Malan (if you are, you should know: you will be flamed into oblivion). I personally feel he's right to avoid updating the Wiki until it really matters for raiding at 80. Changing the whole wiki -- which took months to arrange and research -- for three weeks of raiding is silly; hence my summary post.

I don't know where people get their inherent mistrust of simulators. And I don't know why, if they mistrust the simulator, they'd come here and ask us to evaluate their decisions. We're just going to test them with the simulator.

True things the simulator taught me:
- Stack hit until your spells are capped
- Crit Rating, Agility and AP are all pretty good, though AP is probably superior for most unless your crit rating is well below 24%
- WF/WF and WF/FT are both brutal; if there's a difference between the two it's probably around 5%
- Lots of haste and faster (2.5s or lower) weapons boost Flametongue.

I don't rightly care if, given some situation, you get superior dps from either imbue set. It's very possible and I believe you, but it's also very personal -- hence the need for simulation.

Just run the bastard. It's not hard. It's quite accurate. And it will save you hours of worry.

Chagura -- I recently noticed on my warrior that shields can be disarmed (still providing the armor bonus, but unable to Shield Slam/Bash/etc). I think that 3.0 considers a shield to be a weapon. Be interesting to see if I can put mongoose on it.

I want to say thank you to all you elistjerks out there. You often come across rude and condecending (but then again your website should say it all).

I read through this pile of info. I have changed my spec tree and downloaded "Shock & Awe" instead of hammering "1" using a /castsequence macro - and you know what? My DPS has increased by 240!

To the author of Shock & Awe: Please modify your code for the sound loop for 5 stacks of Maelstrom Weapon, so that it ceases the sound when not in combat. Standing and waiting for the next pull and listening while your addon chimes at me gets so annoying I manually wear the buff.

Thanks for all the Advice!

Just use the damn simulator, or (when it's done) the Rawr! module.

Honestly, i don't see the benefit in asking somebody else to do a lot of work just so you can get inaccurate numbers. Unless you get a pretty graph, too.

In the interface otions for Shock and Awe, under the bar options, there is an option for changing the 5 stack sound, and how often it repeats. You can slide that up to 10 seconds or 25, so that it's not as bad. or blast an instant chain heal on someone to help get everyone ready.

At the moment, the sim still cannot account for all situations. Items such as [Dragonstrike], [Shard of Azzinoth] are not properly modeled due to the procs (haste, Elemental). I have both (including dual DS's) and would be happy to provide some data.

My first thought would be to incorporate the Sim into the article, starting with a how-to, and a what the numbers mean(ie. AGI=%crit,#armour,%dodge,#ap). Including the stat->benefit ratios, and point of diminishing returns(hit rating) with a link to the gear site to plug in their own values.

Then move along to Talents, including a breakdown of Maelstrom, how it works, proc rate etc. As well as an article on managing talented raid buffs, such as SoE totem, Windfury Totem, Unleashed Rage, and Stoneskin. Spirit wolves and their inevitable "Yes they're awesome" explaination would reside here. As well as Talent/Buff management for multiple shamans.

Next on the list would be totems, and management. Managing totems is a big deal now, much like Paladin's and their buffs. What i wouldn't give for a TotemPower version of PallyPower(hint hint mod makers). As well as how to make the most out of totem range.

I think I speak for the vast majority here that nobody cares about 2 items that will be replaced at level 75.
Hell no. We aren't holding people's hands to play the game here.

I have the same issue, but you can change the slider to chime less often. I'd like an out of combat option, or a different configurable sound for that situation, but I dont pretend to know how hard that'd be to chime.

If I know I wont be in a fight before the buff wears off, I just shoot a chain or healing wave at whoever's not topped off.