Kyrious

Do people really need that? You'd expect if they're playing at the level where they can actually use this forum, they'd know atleast how to manage the easiest aspect of shaman.

Maybe I'm giving people too much credit here, but I dont expect the average EJ goer to "Hurp derp, searing totem makes my dps better, screw flametongue". We all know that rdps>pdps, and that if we have other shaman, we figure out what part of the forests each'll be dropping.

 

vestibule

I will break it down for nerds that have their head up their sim.

If you have Sunwell gear, I.E. gear with Armor pen, haste, Expertise capped, and Spell hit capped. You can gem for Crit and AP and do more damage with a fast OH with FT. Right now PPM is great for this set up. In some cases I could spam fully stacked CL/LB, it was literally restacking instantly. So if your spell damage and crit are up you can do more damage.

This is my last post here ever, it seems that if you bring up points that don't follow your nerdy sim results it gets jumped on.
SHOCK AND AWE is pro game thanks alot for that add on.

Happy hunting epics,

 

Ronboar

With totem management I believe the author means a system like the Chaman2 addon for keeping track of your totems, not a system to tell you what totem to drop next.

That I would appreciate - I'm a clicker (I know, I know...) and my interface is filling up with totems.

Anyways I do the same with the healing spells to stop the sound - I just use lhw instead.

 

Kyrious

I use totem timer, and the cast sequence macro it makes generally. Right click the totem from the school you want, and it changes the macro for whatever situation.

I do still have everything hotkeyed, but the macro lets me spam the button and drop all 4.

 

Toots Hepcat

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

You can either be empirical, or bang two rocks together and hope DPS comes out. It's obvious which you've chosen.

Incidentally, the simulator agrees with you on all points. A certain amount of haste does select for flametongue.

 

Roflmeow

Properly managing totems will provide greater overall raid benefeit, and maximize dps. Isn't that what we're all here to do? Mostly, listing which totems take priority over others was the concern.

I'm not saying that we need to dumb it down to the point of sheer idiocy. But more than just Elite players read these forums for insight on how classes work Weather they are considering trying a new class, A new Raid leader who wants more insight on what their players can do, or those starting as a fresh toon, and found it on the web that want to better themselves.

In either case, it was just a suggestion not a request. You asked for them, and can do what you want with them.

 

Levva

V3.1 and above disables the sound out of combat.

I see he got banned already. I feel the need to add code to ShockAndAwe to disable it if the player is called Vestibule on a server called Gilneas.

Really will clueless, ungrateful idiots not learn that to gain respect they need to show respect.

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.

 

ChaguraED

I assume the only major changes would be reminding resto/ele shaman to drop stoneskin totem if there's an enhancement shaman in the group covering SoE. That and deciding which shaman gets to use searing totem and which covers flametongue (if resto)

Sidebar: I was grouped with a resto shaman for AQ 40, and the stacking mana-spring totem was pretty significant.

 

Janraea

He asked how to simplify the problem so that people wouldn't be constantly asking for ep values on ej. I proposed a solution. I did not 'ask somebody else to do a lot of work', nor would I likely even use the tool were it available. Direct your hostility elsewhere.

 

Skreekins

A "web 2.0" solution might be the most useful approach. Create a database and talk to tukez about adding an option in his sim to submit your EP values to the database. The sim would ask the user to describe their level of gear (eg. T7.5) and organize the data by EP "tiers" like the last set of generic EP values were. Then the average of all EP values submitted could be taken for each tier to get an average value. This would create dynamically generated generic EP values for the public that would only get more accurate as the data began to accumulate.

If needed, some filters can be added to remove obviously flawed EP values, but it might be just as effective to ask within the sim to not submit EP values that look a bit off and to not submit values if the user is new to the sim. Given enough time and regular use, it would probably produce the most accurate "generic" values possible and would even reflect possible changes in our mechanics if they happen (after wiping previous generic values and accumulating a sufficient amount of new data).

This would, of course, require some time and investment up front with coding, etc., but it would also be futureproof. As long as enhancement shaman continue to use sims to determine their EP values, this solution would work just as well after the fifth expansion as it would now.

I'm not trying to incite a flame war, which is not productive to anyone, but I would like to briefly explain myself so I don't just look like a tool. I have a great deal of respect for you Rounced, and generally agree with most of what you said to me, but I think my intentions were misinterpreted. I was not washing my hands of the problem and asking everyone else to do the "hard" work. After rereading my post I see where you got this idea. I stopped the discussion so abruptly because I was late for something and knew that I would not be able to spend any significant amount of time online until today (Monday). Also, I do not have access to the beta where this idea would have to be tested since it is a level 80 only thing by virtue of utilizing lava burst. I suppose I was hoping that someone else (with access to beta) would see the potential and want to do some further testing, but I "asked" in the wrong way. I also did not see the value of using the simulator as (to my knowledge) it does not properly allow you to test full casts and see the subsequent effect it has on your melee abilities (reset swing timer vs. suspend it, no proc chances, increase in elemental devastation uptime, etc.)

I also think the DPS benchmark of ~2060 that I came up with was dismissed too easily. I stated that the player would have to have absolutely no consumables, buffs or debuffs available to him, not even totems, and was using Naxx10 level gear. So no, I do not think that your fully buffed, max consumable, T6/Sunwell geared result of 2200 DPS on brutallus immediately dismisses my hypothesis. The idea is that if slam casting lava burst is ideal with no buffs/debuffs/consumables whatsoever, it is possible that it is superior with a full suite of raid buffs due to the superior scaling of lava burst and flame shock, especially glyphed. It was not meant to be a replacement for anything else in our arsenal, but a supplement. Just something else to put on the priority list. It has the lack of melee hits during the cast working against it, but also provides almost 100% elemental devastation uptime regardless of the RNG.

I was admittedly disappointed at your reaction due to the aforementioned respect and since I was only trying to contribute to the theorycrafting community by proposing a way of doing things that might not have been previously considered viable. Hothgor was pitching the same idea, but he did not have the two new glyphs at his disposal. He seemed more hellbent on proving its viability while I am more interested in finding out what offers the best DPS. If slam casting is not the best, I'm fine with that. However, my preliminary numbers (though admittedly rough) suggest that it might be a possibility. It also seems that the greatly enhanced scalability (which was already good) of lava burst and flame shock combined with maelstrom casts might resurrect fast/fast FT/FT and caster gear for enhancement ("lightning knives"), which might push blizzard to take some action to permanently correct it such as switching Thunderstorm and Lava Burst as suggested on the beta forums.


In summation: Rounced, I apologize if I mucked up the thread with useless information. It was not my intention. I will not bring slam casting up again except perhaps after I am able to test it myself on live. I still think you are a cool guy and appreciate the efforts of you and everyone here.

 

Toots Hepcat

...is a lot of work. Few days worth at least. And somebody would have to do it. It doesn't simplify the problem; it just creates yet another tool to maintain -- after all, if it's hard to create one set of EP values and qualify them for a given user, it's even harder to create multiples.

The requirements for your solution -- "plug in values, get EP" -- sound like they're already met by the simulator in a more directed, accurate and manageable way. And I'm sure toolmakers like IMBA and MaxDPS are already hard at work on something close to what you're asking for.

No hostility, just pointing out that your simple solution isn't either simple nor is it a solution (I'm a software analyst; pointing these things out is what I do all day).

 

Rouncer

Toots you better watch yourself, that's a paladin and he might just spec Ret and kick your ass for the hell of it.


Telling people to hit the sim is the most accurate solution but it does have some limitations. We need to set some general rules before they actually get to the sim.

1. Get enough hit to be spell hit capped on the boss when raid buffed. Nothing matters more then +hit until you get to that point.

2. Crit Rating is always good.

3. Armor Penetration Rating is not a great stat for raiding any more (great in PvP, not so good in PvE). Since the more debuffed the target the less of an effect it will be having.

4. Haste is to 3.0 what Hit was to 2.0.


Stick those principals and then use the Sim for more exact figures.


Addendum on #4. Haste is not a horrible stat but it's really not something to gear for anymore. Too much of our dps is unaffected by Haste for it to be a good stat to stack. Windfury Weapon damage, Shock Damage, Lava Lash damage, Stormstrike damage are all basically unaffected by haste. So that means haste rating only affects ~60% of our attacks. Which is why it is not a good stat to stack.

As for expertise I'm really not sure where it falls anymore. It may fall into the same category as Haste, something that isn't bad but not worth stacking or it may be like hit and be something to actively collect until the cap is reached.


editing to respond to Skreekins without mucking up the thread more.


Sorry.

Hothgor's hellbent quest to prove the validity of "slam casting" put me on edge when I read your post. Hothgor's concept only worked with the craptastic gear they gave you on the premades (all the gems are stam/resil) which have like 18% melee crit rating and 16% spell crit. With that level of gearing his lost dps from casting the lava burst was offset by the increased elemental devastation uptime and how it then interacted with the rest of our crit based abilities.

The sim will do the casting for you if you select that in the priority list and I assumed you had already seen the posts regarding it (Hothgor and Pitbuller were debating about casting spells with less then 5 stacks of MW so Tukez added that functionality into the sim) but were just being lazy about actually running the sims. Sorry for making that assumption. My only defense would be that I had just been slaughtered by a 4 ret pally team in WSG when I posted and may have contributed to the aggression (is there anything more frustrating then being killed by someone that is bubbled so all you get is a screen full of immune messages).

Play with the sim and see for yourself but keep in mind that using those 2 glyphs to boost lava burst means you are missing 2 glyphs that could have had a pretty significant effect on other areas of your damage.

 

Toots Hepcat

Expertise is, to my knowledge, still the most important DPS stat until you cap it at 6.5% dodge reduction.

Reason: it is cheap (high effectiveness per point of Expertise Rating) and affects white damage, windfury, stormstrike, and, indirectly, Maelstrom Weapon.

Haste isn't ALL that bad. It has a...wonky effect on dual Windfury at some weapon speeds, but almost always benefits single Windfury. It's something I've been exploring in my quest to create a flattened windfury model, but if you use the simulator (broken record time) you don't need to worry about that -- it'll make more accurate predictions of the value of haste than I can. But you're right that is is not universally good.

Also: yey, though I walk through the shadow of the Valley of Alterac, I shall fear no paladin. For mine is the purge, and the Ghost Wolf, and the Frost shock, forever.

 

Janraea

Oh, I know it'd be complicated and a pain to implement. Also it would require constant upkeep. I think maxDps uses what amounts to a spreadsheet to figure dps, which isn't very useful for some classes (this one in particular), but if they have good enough results, maybe we should start directing people who are afraid of the sim to that site?

Apologies for reading too much into your tone, I guess you're rather brusque in general :-)

 

Malan

Maintenance is the biggest problem. The second is that relying on a particular sim or sim author is dangerous, as we've seen with Yo's sim, he basically dropped out of sight. Tukez has already said that he's having to slow down development because of school or work, or both.

The more we can make a general purpose solution (not relying on someone to host something or maintain it) the better.

The issue that I was driving at is that the difference in values between someone using a slow WF OH, a person using a fast FT OH, and someone else who is doing lavaburst 'slam' casting might be so great there really is no middle ground for me to arbitrarily say "ok these are the values that we'll use as the standard." In which case, I can't do things like rank order trinkets, which means we'll be forever answering questions about trinkets and set bonuses and anything else with a proc or On Use effect.

Now the solution as I see it, is that Blizz hurries the hell up and makes WF a MH only imbue, and removes the CD. Because the minute that occurs, we'll be able to swap to a closed form solution like rogues, and we can just develop a Rawr module.




Side Note: Please stop posting stupid shit in the ThinkTank article. It is not a place for questions or thank yous. All you do is waste my time having to report it, and later delete it.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

Loved the quote, although I still fear the bubble.

Not so sure about that with Expertise anymore. Think about it, all those things (and you forgot about lava lash) add up to roughly 64% of your overall damaging attacks. That means that they are only 65% as effective as crit rating or hit rating. I understand the notion that it is cheap, but is it cheap enough to overcome that deficit?

 

Toots Hepcat

Brusque is one way to put it, or churlish, or curt. I'd prefer "direct." I hear so many clever ideas in a day that don't solve the immediate problem that I don't always feel the need to praise them prior to addressing their efficacy.

MaxDPS indeed uses a series of flattened equations, much like a spreadsheet or the Rawr! application. There's a lot of benefit to flat equations -- not least of all their speed means you can do more robust data analysis with them. This is why I'm working on a series of such equations.

If you've never seen the Rawr! app, have a look. It offers gorgeous new ways to analyze your character. I want to open access to this for the Enhancement spec but am not willing to to do so with a model that has the same problems as MaxDPS (such as the inability to correctly model weapon speeds and haste). Accuracy be damned, relative analysis is what you need for gear comparison -- but any model that suggests Shiv of Exsanguination is a good weapon is busted.

In any respect, dynamic interfaces for character analysis don't belong in a wiki. The numbers to feed these interfaces DO belong there, but not until research has settled and the novelty of new abilities has died down.

 

Toots Hepcat

(Left out Lava Lash because I realized I still wasn't sure which attack table it used).

After you yellow-cap, hit rating no longer affects Stormstrike and Windfury, which combine to about 35% of your DPS. Meaning it ALSO affects about 65% of your DPS.

Expertise has a slightly higher value, because in addition to improving 65% of dps, it improves the chance for on-proc abilities to hit and thus proc Windfury and Maelstrom.

Thus: Expertise is the most important stat until expertise capped, hit rating is a close second. Currently, only hit rating can be gemmed or 'chanted.

 

Malan

Right and that's why I'm not too concerned with updating the wiki yet because people are still playing around with quite a wide variety of things right now. Heck, the Wolves don't scale with gear yet, and they aren't modeled in the sim either. Once their scaling works and is modeled that too will shift how we view our gear.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

If you are using WF/WF and including Lava Lash then you get maybe 32-33% but if you are using WF/FT it's more like 25%.

Hit Rating also gives you more spell hit per rating point as well so you get more bang for your buck there.

 

ChaguraED

I Found quite the crutch in the Scryer's Bloodgem. If you are badly below the spell hit cap, either from lacking gear, or missing a shadowpriest/moonkin in your raid (seems to be the case for me), this guy offers 2.03% hit. with EP values of 3.3 for hit, and the added spell damage, it beat hourglass & bloodlust brooch.

Not cutting edge, but at ~18G, it might be a good choice for shaman looking to bridge the hit gap for the short term.

 

Mman

I think the key to developing a new system is to keep in mind what EP values were originally created for. There were meant to be a guideline that you could use on the fly to determine the relative values of individual pieces of gear. The problem has become that EP values have become so erratic depending on your individual gear set that their values have lost any actual meaning. I personally never liked using EP because the system assigned number values to gear. Because of this people treated those values as an empirical measure of your potential dps, not just a guideline. This just isn't true.

It is clear now that our individual gear has a huge impact in the value we assign certain pieces of our gear. Whatever system we come up with will have to take into account not only just one gear slot but our overall stat makeup. I wonder if coming up with a system that works like EP wouldn't be a mistake. The ineractions to our current stats is just too complex to determine on the fly or as a static value. Those sort of evaluations will work best when you can test using something like a sim to determine which is better with your personal gear, but that takes time. Ideally we might be able to come up with something like RAWR if windfury gets some changes, or at least we can hope.

 

kelben

Anyone know of a working paperdoll program? (website/mod/program) that would allow you to figure out total stats quickly and and easily so you can test more combinations on the sim?

 

Rouncer

That's actually what I was hoping someone would be able to do utilizing rawr and tukez's sim together. Rawr for it's armory capture system to determine the input that would hit the sim and then the EP values would be used by Rawr to weight order the individual armor pieces and enchant options and buffs etc.

Rawr's optimization function (rawr mage has the ability to optimize your gear set based on what items you have and can even figure out the ideal gem choices too for all the pieces) probably wouldn't function due to the need to run the sim on each combination but the armory capture aspect alone would be incredibly nice.

 

Rhaegal

I understand what you're saying, but with the way various stats work together, we need some way to rank gear for ourselves. As long as the person using it is knowledgeable, using the sim to generate personal EP values works great, and can tell you that item X is better than item Y despite being a lower ilvl simply because it's itemized better. I think by and large, the people who contribute to these forums are okay with taking a little extra time to do so (assuming they're running a system capable of running the sim), even if some of us (myself included) were lazy in TBC and mostly used the EP values in the TTT. I'm not sure what better option there is; being able to generate values for each stat that add up to a total value for a piece of gear is a very cut-and-dry means of determining upgrades. The other options basically amount to eyeballing gear and estimating your own internal EP values ("Crit rating is about as good as 2 AP, so this item is better") or worse, statements like, "This item is a higher ilvl, so it has to be better!" or "Whoa, these shoulders look cool."

The problem that Malan is trying to address, I think, is what happens when people come in looking for guidance. If there isn't some generic means of ranking gear, we're going to be inundated with "wut shoulders r better lol". If we have our own EP values we're obtaining from the sim, people are going to want to know roughly what they are so they can just use our work to improve their own performance. While that's fine, and part of why these forums are here, it would also be misleading in the case of EP.

That said, I think the optimum solution for the TTT is just to create a short description of general stat orderings. Tell people that stacking hit and expertise to cap are important, after which you get something that looks like: crit > agi > haste > hit > ArP > AP (I'm making that order up as an example, don't shoot me if I flipped things around ), followed by a little blurb saying that, for example, haste scales better if you're using flametongue on your OH, and any other stats that vary in usefulness depending on gear/talent/imbue decisions. Make it clear that due to how much variation there is from person-to-person, it wouldn't be fair to the casual reader to provide EP values that might be way off for them. If they want something more specific, their choices are to either put in the effort to run the sim or use MaxDPS as a general guideline, knowing that it's not perfect.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!