I'm about 99% sure that when Blizzard changed WF hits from white meele hits to yellow spell hits is when they fixed "WF procs off of WF". Before that especially in classic there was a lot of "procs off of GCD" (where you could start chaining WF by using instacast abilities), so i dont think they will ever remove the 3sec WF cooldown. Windfury is an ability that with our talents can be exploited in different ways if the cooldown was removed completely.
The only thing that i have seen was that you would get 4 flurry charges instead of 3 if you had the same weapon speed, however I am not sure if it was proven.
There is no exploit available. The numbers change if they take it off cooldown, so they'd need to change other numbers to compensate, but they're able to do that easily. I'm not sure what you mean by 'chaining WF', but the original issue was with our burst, not our throughput - that went away when we stopped using slow two-handers.
Flurry doesn't work that way - if you have same-speed weapons on a flurry, one gets a charge and one doesn't - that's why they never stay lined up. The *extremely* slight conjectured gain from paired weapons was based on the idea that, if they are swinging at the same time, the chance for the mainhand to be the one proccing goes up, as it is checked first. I believe that at the time we thought flurry worked the way you seem to (I don't know if it actually did at that point).
This is pretty common question. Haste cap(1.5s) with raid buff is very close. Becouse of doubble mongoose uptime isn't 100% there isn't exact passive haste point and this give odd result for haste. This haste cap is more theorical problem. We can't be sure is Wf cd allways exact 3 second in game. Sim don't handdle server lag. Maybe it should but then we would have test this with every server. Use negative haste ep range and go with that value or try avoid haste gear. This might look big problem but game don't work as perfect like sim.
Edit to clarify: When I say cap I mean reduced benefit area.
An interesting idea would be completely over hasting yourself, since I think there might be a positive EP for haste again from say 1.2s - 1s. For the exact same hidden WF CD reasons.
The problem is of course that the amout that you are hasted is changing the whole fight so there can never be a magical right answer. That begin said, I think I'll just ignore the haste as much as possible like you say, and stack the others because even in a pretty good enviroment for haste, haste is still out-performed by attack power.
** I just did the exact experiment above and EP for haste came back at 1.13 which is positive as one would expect, but not very significant. So yeh, no real relevance, just boredom.
The relevance being that this leads to Boneweave Girdle outperforming the T6 belt (albeit very slightly).
*Assuming WF/WF and lvl 70 talents.
Ah, but then you probably aren't expertise capped, which does make the belt better. Remember than once you're capped Expertise EP is 0, so the T6 belt becomes better again.
Ah, but then you probably aren't expertise capped, which does make the belt better. Remember than once you're capped Expertise EP is 0, so the T6 belt becomes better again.
That statement was based on EP values that took all the items attributes into consideration, including the expertise.
The EP for hit rating in the above link is 2 because, I can manipulate my gems and food to reach the hit cap. So If I find myself at 157 for example as opposed to 177, I would eat 20 hit food at the 'cost' of 40ap food. So because the EP of hit changes so much before and after hit cap I value it interms or 'marginal cost.' Another example would be lets say I get a new chest, that has 30 extra hit rating, and that increases my hit from 157-187. I can then swap a 10 hit gem for a 20 ap gem and change from hit food to ap food. So the 'value' of the hit is 60ap, ie it gets an EP or 2.
Sydane -- I remember that post, and I don't think anyone really understood it (even Yo). I'm not sure what he was doing or how he was doing it and indeed, the first diagram seems to contradict the others ("lost" MH procs -- a metric I hate, because it's misleading and has little impact on total DPS -- was lowest with 2 slow weapons).
I can say that I have never seen a case where having two same speed weapons provided less dps than having a slightly slower version of the offhand weapon. Not in either simulator, not in any of the equations I've played with and not live when I was testing dual Dragonstrike against Dragonstrike/Vanir's Left Fist.
Interesting. All this time I have been treating 2.6/2.6 as dogma because of that info in that thread. Guess I misunderstood something
The EP for hit rating in the above link is 2 because, I can manipulate my gems and food to reach the hit cap. So If I find myself at 157 for example as opposed to 177, I would eat 20 hit food at the 'cost' of 40ap food. So because the EP of hit changes so much before and after hit cap I value it interms or 'marginal cost.' Another example would be lets say I get a new chest, that has 30 extra hit rating, and that increases my hit from 157-187. I can then swap a 10 hit gem for a 20 ap gem and change from hit food to ap food. So the 'value' of the hit is 60ap, ie it gets an EP or 2.
Lootrank database is still bugged. Try 2ep to str and skyshatter go 43ep up. Still no best of slot if you value haste to 0ep which is very odd way to rank. Haste valley isn't that bad as it might look via sim. Just don't gem haste.
I value hit exactly same way. Hit is 2ap(second best stat that you can gem) if gear give less that spell hit cap.
With the new Glyph of Lava Lash granting an additional 10% LL damage with FT offhand, is WF/FT now worthwhile at level 70 for all gear levels? My guess is that it doesn't make any difference, since LL is such a small proportion of overall damage. Hopefully it's added to the enhsim soon for evaluation.
(link broken on purpose; it doesn't link properly as the name is bugged)
h ttp://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=41540
I'm having a real issue with haste, I ran the sim 3 times at 50000 hours and recieved the compartively similiar numbers each time. I'm running with 11.60% haste and 10.13 / 12.41 % hit. I gemmed haste because it gave the best EP value / DPS when comparing sets. I'm pretty much constantly running under 1.5 second attack speed in a raid. Every other value is under 2.xx
EP Values
haste 2.05, 2.06, 2.10
hit 2.05, 2.10, 2.11
The requested sim files. I added 1% melee crit for the SOE glyph and 1% hit from racial aura
I used this file to determine which yellow and blue gems I should go for. 4 piece t6 with the mail badge chest (I previously had the supremus leather chest)
I'm having a real issue with haste, I ran the sim 3 times at 50000 hours and recieved the compartively similiar numbers each time. I'm running with 11.60% haste and 10.13 / 12.41 % hit. I gemmed haste because it gave the best EP value / DPS when comparing sets. I'm pretty much constantly running under 1.5 second attack speed in a raid. Every other value is under 2.xx
EP Values
haste 2.05, 2.06, 2.10
hit 2.05, 2.10, 2.11
Are you using a flametongue offhand imbue? For my gear when I switch my offhand imbue to Flametongue it greatly increases the value of haste but my overall DPS drops by around 200 and logically this makes sense since the recently discussed haste plateau
That would be my first guess but it is difficult to tell without having you post your config file.
That's very impressive, any chance you would mind posting a WWS and Armory? That's quite a bit above what I've seen on some of the best WWS's. I'd like to see what it looks like, maybe I'm doing something wrong.
So there would be no additional charges from removing the cooldown due to the MW PPM mechanic normalizing them. What about the bonus AP? Would it favor the slow or the fast or would it be neutral? Thinking neutral as well.
Would still favor slow due to increased Mael proc chance on SS and LL. Less than it is now of course.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
1.5s is NOT a cap! It's the threshold of a a zone of reduced benefit. As Teeza has discovered, haste gets better and better for Windfury as you approach 1.5s, then promptly sees its rate of DPS increase reduce, stall or even, briefly, go negative.
As you add haste to bring your weapon speeds further below 1.5s, you will begin to make up for increases in time-after-cooldown with decreases in time-to-proc. In other words, haste's value will go down to 0 (or less), and then go back up. This is why you see a benefit from big haste procs like the DST even as you approach this threshold -- they spike so much haste that we pass right through the zone of reduced benefit.
The real question of hitting 1.5 is what percentage of time is spent above and below this threshold, and how far below the threshold we go at these points.
Dual 2.6 weapons. Added my personal 3.11%. It's very near this cut off.
Having the sim report different actual weapons speed and how much time spent at this speed would be interesting. Add 1% haste at inferior EP could net you a nice DPS increase due to getting a sub-set out of the cut off.
Originally Posted by Malan
Where did this meme come from?
Sim runs have shown it's easier to see the haste soft cap/cut off/whatever you want to call it by using to weapons of equal speed. I got ~30 DPS going down from 2.8 to 2.6 on MH. It's not "better" per se as it's highly situational due to gear dependencies.
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You didn't read a damn word of the last 3 pages did you?
On the other hand, in light of the discussion of setting up a page to keep people from asking "Wut should I use for gemz lolz", it might be helpful to have a set of general values they can plug in to pacify them, with the caveat that for the best values you should run the sims.
Since the days of downranking Windfury, I've played my shaman as slow/slow WF/WF. Earlier today I got the idea to test three forms of weapon speed out since while I believe I'm doing things right, those target dummies in IF are fun to hit and I wanted to pretend I was doing something more than just swinging at a defenseless mob.
On my first go, I used WF/FT (Vanir's and Prowler's Strikeblade) and got a 1532 at the end of my DPS run.
On my second go, I used WF/WF (Vanir's / Vanir's) and I got a 1470 at the end of my DPS run.
On my third go, I used WF/FT (Vanir's / Vanir's) and I got a 1300 at the end of my DPS run.
So I ran them again.
On my fourth go, I used V/PS again and ended with 1513.
On my second go, I used V/V again and ended with 1450.
On my sixth go, I used V/V(WF/FT) again and got 1327.
My Prowler's Strikeblade isn't enchanted, which also bugs me a bit, and I'm unsure if what I'm doing is just bad luck on the behalf of WF/WF or what, but I like to remain "on top of things", so are there any possible explanations? I've seen my WF/WF do more before, sometimes coasting at ~1600 (non-raid), and my rotation is:
SS when it's up, and a macro I made:
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Lava Lash, Earth Shock, Lava Lash
MS when it's up for a LB.
Any feedback would be appreciated, thanks.
Things I didn't use:
Feral Spirits.
Heroism.
PS: I know, I need to change my strength enchants out.
have you ever considered reading or searching this thread for answers to your questions?
Stuff that seems to have no purpose and stuff that's completly wrong and has been discussed at length here already.
What are you trying to prove? That with your gear it's better to use Vanir's and Prowler's Strikeblade with WF/FT? You could have gotten that info from the sim much quicker and easier.
And please read what has been posted here, earth shock is better than flame shock now amongst other things.
What are you trying to prove? That with your gear it's better to use Vanir's and Prowler's Strikeblade with WF/FT? You could have gotten that info from the sim much quicker and easier.
And please read what has been posted here, earth shock is better than flame shock now.
I'm not trying to prove anything, that's why I asked the question. When I ran ES/ES with my gear, it was much less than ES/FS.
I'm not trying to prove anything, that's why I asked the question. When I ran ES/ES with my gear, it was much less than ES/FS.
All things aside, 2 runs of each is not statistically significant of anything despite how close your two runs of each sample is. Plug in your gear, and run different kind of setup in the simulation. After that, run each of the scenario at 10000+ hour for numbers that are much closer to what the real value is.
As for Flame Shock versus Earthshock, Earthshock is better. The reason you're getting FS favored over ES is, again, 2 runs of each sample doesn't say much, if anything.
All in all if you just need to use the simulator, unless you can perform perfect priority actions for over 30000 hours manually.
Is it just TSA and UR that add 10% AP to the raid?
If so, it looks like our raid viability just got a big bump.
With WF totem no longer in effect for ranged, Marksman just lost it's raid viabilty and raiding hunters are likely back to BM or SV. Obviously this remains to be seen, but in it's strong in theory.
Good news could be that we have the only raid viable spec that can bring 10% AP to the raid, moderate bad news is 5/5 UR is mandatory.
So I guess in your mind when Blizzard said at the Con that they want to remove the cooldown, that they were just blowing smoke up our asses?
I was at blizzcon when the question was asked and they never said they would remove it. At best they gave some logic in that if they found people were duel wielding windfury and flametongue most of the time for better damage they would remove the cooldown if they thought our damage was too low and that we wouldn't go back to duel wielding windfury.
Is it just TSA and UR that add 10% AP to the raid?
If so, it looks like our raid viability just got a big bump.
With WF totem no longer in effect for ranged, Marksman just lost it's raid viabilty and raiding hunters are likely back to BM or SV. Obviously this remains to be seen, but in it's strong in theory.
Good news could be that we have the only raid viable spec that can bring 10% AP to the raid, moderate bad news is 5/5 UR is mandatory.
Death Knights can also provide the 10% AP buff to the raid using their Abomb's Might from the Blood tree. Not sure how many DK's will be spec'ing for Blood, but it's there. So no we aren't the only one's who can provide the 10% AP buff.
On the other hand, if they do finally implement dual spec to the game, I feel as though the hardcore raiders will have two raiding specs, one with UR and one without, so that you can change it as you need to based on whether or not someone else can provide the buff.
Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
10/21/08, 7:37 PM
