Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 142

Malan · 10/23/08, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Andrast

No, the dps loss using the back-asswards priority was 5dps. Since the /castrandom macro would on average be in the middle of that it should be around 2.5dps loss according to his numbers.

That's still pretty incredible. If someone has time, that might be something worth verifying in-game. Because if it's only 5 dps ... obviously we can still say 'yah this is better from a min-max perspective' but we'd also be able to point out that there's really no wrong way to do it. Which would be interesting.

Does this hold true in the sim at level 80 as well?

Pane · 10/23/08, 1:31 AM

Actually that castrandom macro just flipped my hed.

Originally Posted by Malan

'yah this is better from a min-max perspective'

Even that's debatable. You could probably lose the same ~5 dps to human error while doing it manually. The sim assumes perfect execution (I guess).

Rouncer · 10/23/08, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by Andrast

This isn't correct. The castrandom macro I posted does not change both lava lash and shocks into 8 second cooldowns. If you hit the macro with SS on cooldown the macro engine will randomly choose between LL or ES.

Sorry, thought that was castsequence not castrandom and I too would really love some verification on that since if that is all the dps that would be lost from using it, thats pretty amazing.

Malan · 10/23/08, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by Pane

Even that's debatable. You could probably lose the same ~5 dps to human error while doing it manually. The sim assumes perfect execution (I guess).

You can add "lag" to the sim, which tukez has defined as: "in milliseconds, lag means ping + player reaction time".
So if your normal ping is ~100ms, just add another 250ms for a 1/4 second reaction time, and you'll get a slightly better approximation.

Rouncer · 10/23/08, 2:06 AM

Just did some minor testing with the sim and it's a little bigger then Pitbuller said but not that far off.

Base level 70 configuration with Static Shock but no Elemental Focus or Elemental Fury (leech spec for when a TSA Hunter is present). Flasked but no haste pots and no drums. Talbuk food. Changed speed on offhand to 2.6 and imbues to WF/WF and stuck a DST instead of the MAD. Set lag to between 100-250

Average dps 2740. MW5-LB highest priority in all situations. I ran all the various configurations and then verified by running them all a couple of times to check for consistency.

Lowest dps priority rotation - SS -> LL -> ES which ran 2729dps

Highest dps priority rotation - ES -> SS -> LL which ran 2750dps

Difference of 31dps so half of that would be 15.5dps so roughly a 0.57% dps loss over the ideal.

Hate to say it but it looks like making that macro is definitely a good idea. Stick to priorities on simple tank and spanks and switch to that macro whenever there is a lot of movement or a lot of focus is required. Thank you Andrast, very nice find.

Andrast · 10/23/08, 2:34 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Hate to say it but it looks like making that macro is definitely a good idea. Stick to priorities on simple tank and spanks and switch to that macro whenever there is a lot of movement or a lot of focus is required. Thank you Andrast, very nice find.

I'm surprised that the sim indicates it is such a small dps loss. I was advocating using the "brainless" method on trash when you need to just let your attention wander a little. With such a small difference I'd probably say it becomes very difficult to determine if a shaman spams a macro or plays "properly". This is slightly annoying to me but also slightly pleasing.

I'll admit I was distracted last night in our weekly aoe of Sunwell and used the macro on Brutallus with an extremely similar setup to the sim you posted. The result was a reasonably pleasing (although definitely not outstanding) 2690dps. Certainly not earth-shattering dps but definitely respectable considering all I did was spam 1 and hit my lightning bolt key every so often. I know for a fact I need heaps more practice on the "priority" system.

I should note that my latency is easily 250ms the vast majority of the time. I'll need to run the sim when I get home from work and play around with some numbers to further investigate this myself since, as I stated, I'm rather surprised that the dps loss from being lazy isn't more pronounced.

Pane · 10/23/08, 2:44 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

You can add "lag" to the sim, which tukez has defined as: "in milliseconds, lag means ping + player reaction time".
So if your normal ping is ~100ms, just add another 250ms for a 1/4 second reaction time, and you'll get a slightly better approximation.

Ah cool; only recently started playing with the sim so still figuring it out.

That said, I was going on the assumption that 'player lag' can be expected to be higher with a manual system, and players will make errors (compared with 'perfect' execution), both of which would bring the two results closer together.

Originally Posted by Andrast

With such a small difference I'd probably say it becomes very difficult to determine if a shaman spams a macro or plays "properly".

Hunters can tell you that macroed and "properly" aren't mutually exclusive. Thanks for finding/building it :-)

kelben · 10/23/08, 4:29 AM

moved post over to the sim thead

david0925 · 10/23/08, 5:02 AM

The cast random macro will be less effective when ES glyph is in place.

Regardless, I think that just emphasize on hitting SOMETHING every GCD that you have, regardless of how useless the ability might seem (which was also talked about earlier).

NeuroMedivh · 10/23/08, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by Devnex

Cast randoms will not attempt to cast spells that are on cooldown.

This is incorrect. The /castrandom WILL attempt to cast spells that are on cooldown.

Simple verification: make a macro "/castrandom Shamanistic Rage, Healing Wave" and spam it. Half the time you will get "Ability not ready" errors.

That's not to say a castrandom macro isn't useful; If you just want to spam the heck out of it, it'll work "ok", but you'll lose time to 'misses', and the more spells you put on castrandom, the higher chance of not getting the one that is on cooldown.

I could see the stormstrike/lb macro being useful, I hadn't thought to incorporate /stopcasting as a backstop, I'll have to use that.

Callaloo · 10/23/08, 9:31 AM

But if your LB isn't fully stacked, you'll lose a GCD, right ?

Malan · 10/23/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by kelben

Alright I have no clue, I think I broke the sim but I'm really and truely clueless again.

Post this stuff in the sim thread, not here. We've got too much cross posting going on, things are getting very confusing here.

Rouncer · 10/23/08, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by NeuroMedivh

I could see the stormstrike/lb macro being useful, I hadn't thought to incorporate /stopcasting as a backstop, I'll have to use that.

I'm thinking about incorporating that macro but I have a concern that would need to be tested (at work so can't do anything besides play with the sim).

/cast Lightning Bolt
/stopcasting

If you were to try and cast a Lightning bolt using that macro and it wasn't instant-cast would your swing timer be reset or would just nothing happen at all? If not I see that as being a really nice macro for raiding. Had it happen a couple of times where I would be spamming Lightning Bolt with a 5 stack of MW (trying to catch the end of the GCD) and due to server lag would accidentally end up starting another Lightning Bolt cast right after which I would have to cancel but not before the damage had been done and my swing timers had been reset.

I ran a few dozen more models regarding casting priorities and used different imbues and weapons speeds and incorporating the Earth Shock glyph into all the models and basically there is a 1.15% spread between best and worst case priority lists.

Basically best scenario is ES -> SS -> LL and worst scenario is SS -> LL -> ES but the difference between them is barely over 1%. This held true with WF/WF or WF/FT with Slow/Slow or Slow/Fast.

One issue with the /castrandom macro is that you will lose time, as Neuro noted, since everytime you get a "spell not ready message" that is another key press that is required to get a spell that is not on cooldown. Which won't add a lot of time but it will add some. Best way would probably be to use the macro bound to the mousewheel (or a G15 key, although Blizzard has said they don't like that) so that the delay between key presses is minimized.

Only real caveat is that MW5-LB was set to the highest priority with all those settings I tested, however once the Earth Shock glyph is introduced (if fixed) setting Earth Shock as the highest priority was more dps then all the other options. However the additional dps is barely 0.2%.

After running all this testing I'm just going to make the macro and bind it to my mouse wheel and keep all my other bindings active. Tank and Spank, I'll stick to priority list but for fights that require more situational awareness it will be nice to be able to just break out the macro.

Toots Hepcat · 10/23/08, 12:18 PM

Rounced -- I believe the GCD is tripped the second you start casting a spell. That's why haste used to be worthless to folks with 1.5s casts, prior to patch 2.4 (?) and haste reducing the GCD.

If you stopped casting immediately after a non-instant, your swing timer would be unaffected, but you'd trip a GCD and you'd add no DPS.

Rhaegal · 10/23/08, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Rounced -- I believe the GCD is tripped the second you start casting a spell. That's why haste used to be worthless to folks with 1.5s casts, prior to patch 2.4 (?) and haste reducing the GCD.

If you stopped casting immediately after a non-instant, your swing timer would be unaffected, but you'd trip a GCD and you'd add no DPS.

You actually incur a fraction of a GCD when you start to cast a spell and cancel it. Basically, canceling a spell also cancels its GCD. Technically speaking you're supposed to be able to immediately start casting something else (I think), but due to client/server communication lag, there's still time between when you cancel a spell and when you can do something else, but it's nowhere near the full GCD from when you started casting the first spell.

Rouncer · 10/23/08, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

You actually incur a fraction of a GCD when you start to cast a spell and cancel it. Basically, canceling a spell also cancels its GCD. Technically speaking you're supposed to be able to immediately start casting something else (I think), but due to client/server communication lag, there's still time between when you cancel a spell and when you can do something else, but it's nowhere near the full GCD from when you started casting the first spell.

I think that was one of the things they fixed along with the whole revamp of the casting system although I have never tried using /stopcasting in a macro like that. Once the stopcasting is registered by the client it immediately frees itself to allow another cast. I'm pretty sure that's how it works for spells but I really don't know how it would work with the swing timer (haven't done any testing with the casting mechanisms in a very long time).

If you have even a single charge of MW active then the swingtimer would merely be paused but what if you attempt a Lightning Bolt without any charges active (such as would happen if you were spamming /cast Lightning Bolt and one registered after the instant one went off)? Would the swingtimer still be reset if the stopcasting was part of the macro to cast that lightning bolt?

That's the real question and it should be pretty easy to answer. Just spec anything without Maelstrom Weapon and make a macro with a spell with a casting time and /stopcasting after it and spam it and see if it resets your swing timer.

Teeza · 10/23/08, 2:15 PM

/startattack
/castsequence reset=6/combat Earth Shock, Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Earth Shock, Lava Lash, stormstrike, Earth Shock, Lava Lash, Stormstrike, Earth Shock, Lava Lash;
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Then do the LB on another button.

Try this. I've spent most of the day hitting dummies using all the different macros, and this seems to be the best. In the vast majority of time it casts the right spell (according to MWLB>ES>SS>LL and ShockandAwe's Priority box). It also has less down time than the random macro, even if u do bind it to your mouse.

Have a crack, see what you guys think.

NeuroMedivh · 10/23/08, 2:22 PM

Just tested a simple LB macro with /stopcasting tacked on, it does NOT interrupt swing timer, even with 0 charges of MW.

Pitbuller · 10/23/08, 2:27 PM

There is no problem firing four stack MW lighning bolts. It's exactly same dps than firing five stack bolts. Least sim say so. When Shock and ave give four stack warninf sound I use bolt next GCD. Sometime I need to cast it sometime don't but this give simple GCD usage and playstyle. Raid buffed lightning bolt with four stack is 0.35second cast and CL is 0.26s. This might be only reason why Cl is better spell. Both do same damage with highend gear without flametongue bonus spell power but Cl cast is faster when I only have four stack mael.

Rouncer · 10/23/08, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Teeza

/startattack
/castsequence reset=6/combat Earth Shock, Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Earth Shock, Lava Lash, stormstrike, Earth Shock, Lava Lash, Stormstrike, Earth Shock, Lava Lash;
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Then do the LB on another button.

Try this. I've spent most of the day hitting dummies using all the different macros, and this seems to be the best. In the vast majority of time it casts the right spell (according to MWLB>ES>SS>LL and ShockandAwe's Priority box). It also has less down time than the random macro, even if u do bind it to your mouse.

Have a crack, see what you guys think.

Thanks for reposting a macro that has been posted and discussed a few times in the thread already.

One small issue with your macro, what do you do when WotLK comes out and Earth Shock should be the highest priority attack?

The castrandom (if it really works that way) is nice because you would know that you are not doing optimum dps when using it but you accept the loss due to other factors and you would keep the priority system in mind to use when you need to output your maximum possible dps. The issue with that macro is that you make it seem like it will be doing optimum dps for you all the time and that simply isn't true (especially not once we gain access to the ES glyph).

Teeza · 10/23/08, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Thanks for reposting a macro that has been posted and discussed a few times in the thread already.

One small issue with your macro, what do you do when WotLK comes out and Earth Shock should be the highest priority attack?

The castrandom (if it really works that way) is nice because you would know that you are not doing optimum dps when using it but you accept the loss due to other factors and you would keep the priority system in mind to use when you need to output your maximum possible dps. The issue with that macro is that you make it seem like it will be doing optimum dps for you all the time and that simply isn't true (especially not once we gain access to the ES glyph).

As soon as you use a macro you are resigning yourself to sub-optimal dps, but then again we are human so as soon as you are playing your dps wont be perfect either.

You stop using it?? Or spend some time trying to make it better, which really should be more than possible.

And about this having been previously posted 'a few' times, probably would have been nice then for someone with an extensive enough knowledge of the forums to bring it up for the guys that wanted a macro. Because clearly I missed those 'few' on my trip through 142 pages.

Personally never used a macro, never will. I enjoying making my human mistakes. I just thought I would try and help, in trying to find something that performs better than the random macro that seemed to be favoured at the moment.

Kaang · 10/23/08, 3:15 PM

With the mechanics behind the ES glyph, is anyone aware of a way to display the GCD in game? I am very curious as to the how & why the dps cycle (priority) will be effected so drastically. This glyph does not remove or lessen the cooldown of the ability just the GCD, and from what i have read on the previous posts i am under the impression that with enough haste the GCD may equal zero for ES. Due to that i would think that the GCD for ES being minimal will simply allow for an extra mash on the macro button, and logically would equal an increace in DPS, likely marginal.

Sydane · 10/23/08, 3:22 PM

You can't use haste to get to instant casts or zero GCD, haste is always applied last. The problem with the glyph right now is the GCD is hardcapped at 1 second, and I strongly suspect it will stay that way. Most likely the "fix" for the glyph will be to change the text from "by 1 sec." to "TO 1 sec." After all, it is a minor glyph so they probably aren't too worried about it being powerful.

gojant · 10/23/08, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

You can't use haste to get to instant casts or zero GCD, haste is always applied last. The problem with the glyph right now is the GCD is hardcapped at 1 second, and I strongly suspect it will stay that way. Most likely the "fix" for the glyph will be to change the text from "by 1 sec." to "TO 1 sec." After all, it is a minor glyph so they probably aren't too worried about it being powerful.

Its a major glyph
Glyph of Earth Shock - Item - World of Warcraft

If working correctly could push the GCD to zero thru haste, but have to wait and see what they do with the bug.

Kaang · 10/23/08, 3:35 PM

*edit: see above
What i was getting at is the GCD should not effect the macro scenario that has been under discussion for the last several pages in a negative way. I am playing with the sim and cannot get anything to work for the ES GCD (mainly my inexperience with the sim, and my work PC is a little slow)

edit 2: sidebar
with the talk of the 3sec internal for WF imbue being changed/removed at Blizz con and the talk of GCD would 1.5 seconds for the internal CD be viable?