Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 145

Undernet01 · 10/26/08, 9:40 PM

This has probably already been answers in this enormous thread, but I searched through pages and pages and couldn't find the answer, so I gotta ask... What happened to the Talent Changes for Fist/Axe/Mace specs?

Skiace · 10/26/08, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by Undernet01

This has probably already been answers in this enormous thread, but I searched through pages and pages and couldn't find the answer, so I gotta ask... What happened to the Talent Changes for Fist/Axe/Mace specs?

This can't possibly be a serious post.

edit: To be productive, I'll answer. That talent was in Alpha. It was replaced with Maelstrom Weapon when the Beta started. MW has gone through several iterations since the start of Beta until ariving at the PPM mechanic that it is currently on live servers.

If you were reading forums/blogs/etc in enough detail 6 months ago (when the alpha was happening) to discover Weapon Specialization in the first place, how could you not have found Maelstrom Weapon some time since then? Or even just looked at your talent tree in-game, where Weapon Spec has been replaced by MW?

Hixxy · 10/27/08, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by Buffokill

I'm actually starting to think about how valuable, if valuable at all, MP5 or spirit would be, not much but not nothing.

It would be almost worthless to be quite honest. The only spot where you could possibly run into mana issues is solo play on mobs with ridiculous amounts of health. Its completely worthless for raiding considering the amount of replenishment available even with just another shammy and a spriest/ret pally.

On a completely unrelated note.. what has caused this thread that had such great discussion in the first 130 or so pages to all of the sudden have an influx of ridiculously bad posts? I mean if you care enough about min/maxing your character that you frequent this site shouldn't you already know what comprises your class even at the most basic of levels?

Devnex · 10/27/08, 8:18 AM

Originally Posted by Buffokill

I'm actually starting to think about how valuable, if valuable at all, MP5 or spirit would be, not much but not nothing.

Still absolutely nothing. You're far better off picking up more intellect if you're running into mana issues.

Also, why in god's name are you wearing felmyst elemental leggings as enhancement?

Pitbuller · 10/27/08, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hixxy

It would be almost worthless to be quite honest. The only spot where you could possibly run into mana issues is solo play on mobs with ridiculous amounts of health. Its completely worthless for raiding considering the amount of replenishment available even with just another shammy and a spriest/ret pally.

With bugged JoW and short fights in 3.02 we don't have any mana problems. This don't mean that we have infinite mana bar. Last beta pacht nerffed Jow to 1% total mana and proc rate was cutted half. If JoW still have 4s internal cooldown we might have mana problems. Newest version of Tukez simulator have mana calculator. If mana is limited intellect ep value raise to 4.5 and mp5 to 2.5. Even spirit have some value(0.2ep). We can't say now that we don't have mana problems at all becouse we don't know how will all mana regen mechanics work at 80lvl. If we have serious mana problems we can allways get more intellect and it's very good stat now. Mp5 is allways been bad stat thought.

david0925 · 10/27/08, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

With bugged JoW and short fights in 3.02 we don't have any mana problems. This don't mean that we have infinite mana bar. Last beta pacht nerffed Jow to 1% total mana and proc rate was cutted half. If JoW still have 4s internal cooldown we might have mana problems. Newest version of Tukez simulator have mana calculator. If mana is limited intellect ep value raise to 4.5 and mp5 to 2.5. Even spirit have some value(0.2ep). We can't say now that we don't have mana problems at all becouse we don't know how will all mana regen mechanics work at 80lvl. If we have serious mana problems we can allways get more intellect and it's very good stat now. Mp5 is allways been bad stat thought.

Aye, I have the same feeling when it comes to intellect as well. Assuming that we don't have unlimited mana resource, and assuming that Shamanistic Rage will be able to fill up the mana bar every two minute, the amount of intellect it takes to reach a mana bar that can last two minute, will become a lot more valuable than int is right now. (For example, if my mana pool is 1500 short of being able to do a full rotation every 2 minutes, that 100 intellect will be very valuable). While maelstrom weapon is still quite volatile, an expect value of procs per minute is probably realistic.

Pane · 10/27/08, 12:48 PM

Been toying around a lot lately with the glorious simulator, plugging the EP values into the cool weighting feature of wowhead. I keep seeing caster items being very competitive with even high-end melee items, because of the merged crit and hit ratings, the Int/AP talent and the fact that spelldamage > AP per point. Is this something people higher up the 'gear ladder' see as well? After my migration I'm stricktly casual so I'm pretty much restricted to 10-man raids and badgegear, and here this is very prevalent. (As an example; according to my simmed EP, Stormwrap stomps all over War-Feathered Loop (Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft))

Another thing; especially items with sockets score well, due to hit gem stacking adding a lot of EP points to an item. In fact; I get over 3 EP from +hit, which means that if an item has sockets it's going to end up high in my weighted list. As hit and crit deteriorate from leveling up above 70 when Wrath hits, 'old' items with 3 sockets will be better than a lot of new items (if those DON'T have 3 sockets), simply because you can slam a new, higher level gem in and offset some of this decline. I can't help but wonder if sockets have become too big a deal.

Bana · 10/27/08, 1:06 PM

I;m sorry if this has been talked about, but I did a search and can not find it.

I am wondering if I should use Chain Lighting OR Lighting Bolt when MW hits 5?

I never have a Mana problem cause I run with a Pally in raids that keep it up. CL should give more DPS but I have used LB a few times and it seems to hit with about just as much DPS.

Any suggestions would be great.

Thx,
Bana

Pitbuller · 10/27/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Pane

Been toying around a lot lately with the glorious simulator, plugging the EP values into the cool weighting feature of wowhead. I keep seeing caster items being very competitive with even high-end melee items, because of the merged crit and hit ratings, the Int/AP talent and the fact that spelldamage > AP per point. Is this something people higher up the 'gear ladder' see as well? After my migration I'm stricktly casual so I'm pretty much restricted to 10-man raids and badgegear, and here this is very prevalent. (As an example; according to my simmed EP, Stormwrap stomps all over War-Feathered Loop (Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft))

Another thing; especially items with sockets score well, due to hit gem stacking adding a lot of EP points to an item. In fact; I get over 3 EP from +hit, which means that if an item has sockets it's going to end up high in my weighted list. As hit and crit deteriorate from leveling up above 70 when Wrath hits, 'old' items with 3 sockets will be better than a lot of new items (if those DON'T have 3 sockets), simply because you can slam a new, higher level gem in and offset some of this decline. I can't help but wonder if sockets have become too big a deal.

I value hit same as two ap. Ap is best stat to me. You should use best stat to yourself. If gear don't push me to spell hit cap then I gem and use food buff. Samething with expertice when you can gem it at wotlk. This way I get much better gear than using values under spell hit cap. Link to wowhead itemlist.

Skreekins · 10/27/08, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Bana

I;m sorry if this has been talked about, but I did a search and can not find it.

I am wondering if I should use Chain Lighting OR Lighting Bolt when MW hits 5?

I never have a Mana problem cause I run with a Pally in raids that keep it up. CL should give more DPS but I have used LB a few times and it seems to hit with about just as much DPS.

Any suggestions would be great.

Thx,
Bana

Buffokill posted some numbers on this only 4 pages ago:

I've been following the conversation here for about a month and to say the least I've completely rethought how I play and look at things.

I used the sim to test how much spellpower was needed to make the coefficient from LB beat out the CL base damage.

here is what I came up with

SP	CL	LB
0	98.62	77.19
50	102.26	82.05
100	105.7	86.1
150	109.44	90.58
200	113.06	94.81
250	116.23	99.36
300	119.84	103.98
350	123.3	108.32
400	127	112.62
450	130.47	117.01
500	133.77	121.36
550	137.27	125.86
600	140.76	130.17
650	144.35	134.78
700	147.88	139.3
750	151.33	143.76
800	154.8	148.46
850	158.12	152.54
900	162.11	156.87
950	165.57	161.08
1000	168.92	166.02
1050	172.62	170.21
1100	176.01	174.69
1150	179.59	178.88
1200	183.23	183.45
1250	186.56	187.59
1300	190.33	192.77
1350	193.52	196.4
1400	196.79	201.26
1450	200.32	205.32
1500	203.86	209.85

So somewhere between 1150 and 1200 SP we find LB beating out CL
If I don't get reamed for this I will try it again with level 80 values.

Nobody has specifically refuted his findings, probably because they seem pretty accurate. Chain lightning has a higher base damage than lightning bolt, but lightning bolt has a higher spelldamage coefficient. I believe it is well accepted that due to the superior scaling and lower mana cost, lightning bolt will be far superior to chain lightning for maelstrom casts at level 80 will a full suite of raid buffs.

Levva · 10/27/08, 1:31 PM

I note the following changes (from mmo-champion.com) in the latest beta (9138) so probs won't be in 3.0.3 unless they delay that until next week only a week before Wrath?

Skills
Enhancement

* Windfury Totem doesn't affect ranged haste anymore.

Talents
Enhancement

* Maelstrom Weapon isn't tagged as a 100% proc rate anymore, Rank 2, 3, and 4 now just have a higher chance to proc than the previous rank. Doesn't affect Lava Burst anymore.

Not huge I suppose, does affect our fellow mail wearing cousins most I suppose. Curious they only mention ranks 1-4 of MW - a typo? Sounds that MW has had its tooltip changed nothing more.

david0925 · 10/27/08, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

I note the following changes (from mmo-champion.com) in the latest beta (9138) so probs won't be in 3.0.3 unless they delay that until next week only a week before Wrath?

Not huge I suppose, does affect our fellow mail wearing cousins most I suppose. Curious they only mention ranks 1-4 of MW - a typo? Sounds that MW has had its tooltip changed nothing more.

Apparently they think hunters were doing too much DPS (which isn't entirely surprising, considering how hunters were already king of DPS pre-3.0 in the absence of Windfury buff), so they are taking that 20% haste away from them. Improved Icy Talons only affects melee haste, so nothing needed to be changed there.

For MW it was just a tooltip update as you have suggested. As the tooltip suggest right now, rank 1 and rank 5 does exactly the same thing when in actuality they don't.

grado · 10/27/08, 3:57 PM

Hi all,

Is anyone very happy with their raiding rotation to date? I did my first raid last night since the patch and I was testing a couple of macros, also I switched between WF and flametongue OH, so not so worried about those stats.

basically, do these stats look 'ballpark' OK, I don't know If I was expecting my spell and fire damage spells to make up a higher % of my overall dps.

Swing (physical) 40%
WF attack (physical) 19%
Earth shock (Nature) 12%
Lightning Bolt (Nature) 10%
Stormstrike (physical) 7%
Flametongue (fire) 5%
Lava Lash (fire) 4%

Physical = 66%
spell/fire = 31%
misc = 3%

I dropped a few places down my guilds dps table coming in at 10th, I was always consistently 6th-8th and occasionally breaking into the top 5 depending on the raid length and destination, so I'm a little concerned I'm doing something drastically wrong.

EDIT: Nevermind, I managed to study a few other enhance shammies WWS logs and mine look about right. I guess some tuning on my gems, enchants, pots etc are needed now I have the time.

gojant · 10/27/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by grado

I dropped a few places down my guilds dps table coming in at 10th, I was always consistently 6th-8th and occasionally breaking into the top 5 depending on the raid length and destination, so I'm a little concerned I'm doing something drastically wrong.

EDIT: Nevermind, I managed to study a few other enhance shammies WWS logs and mine look about right. I guess some tuning on my gems, enchants, pots etc are needed now I have the time.

Since raids were made so simple, trash that was not previously AoE'd is now being, and classes that excel in AoE are probably padding numbers. At least that is my take on your situation.

anji · 10/27/08, 8:10 PM

Has anyone else noticed that not ALL totems are raid wide? In this case JUST the Restoration totems? i.e. tremor, cleansing, regeneration totems? Could this possibly be a bug or was this a documented change that I somehow skipped over? If it is I apologize for this post.

ChaguraED · 10/27/08, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by anji

Has anyone else noticed that not ALL totems are raid wide? In this case JUST the Restoration totems? i.e. tremor, cleansing, regeneration totems? Could this possibly be a bug or was this a documented change that I somehow skipped over? If it is I apologize for this post.

Tremor Totem, and the water-class totems remain group only on purpose. The thinking was that these totems are too powerful to go raid wide, and nerfing them to a degree that the are acceptable to affect the whole raid would make them useless in solo/5 man content.

anji · 10/27/08, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by ChaguraED

Tremor Totem, and the water-class totems remain group only on purpose. The thinking was that these totems are too powerful to go raid wide, and nerfing them to a degree that the are acceptable to affect the whole raid would make them useless in solo/5 man content.

Ok thank you. That is what I thought at first, but was not entirely sure as I didn't read that anywhere. It does make sense though.

Amaxe · 10/27/08, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Not huge I suppose, does affect our fellow mail wearing cousins most I suppose. Curious they only mention ranks 1-4 of MW - a typo? Sounds that MW has had its tooltip changed nothing more.

Right now they all say 100% chance, so I assume the tooltip will say less for the lower ranks

Jheherrin · 10/28/08, 5:06 AM

Originally Posted by Skreekins

Buffokill posted some numbers on this only 4 pages ago:

Nobody has specifically refuted his findings, probably because they seem pretty accurate. Chain lightning has a higher base damage than lightning bolt, but lightning bolt has a higher spelldamage coefficient. I believe it is well accepted that due to the superior scaling and lower mana cost, lightning bolt will be far superior to chain lightning for maelstrom casts at level 80 will a full suite of raid buffs.

His figures are accurate.

At level 70 the base crossover point is 1307 spellpower.
At level 80 the base crossover point is 1978 spellpower.
(by "base" I mean prior to talents, gear etc, just using the spell damage and cast time coefficients)

As Skreekins said, due to the different ways that LB and CL scale with spellpower, ANYTHING that increases your spellpower will reduce this crossover point.
And given that 1300 spellpower is pretty easy to hit once raidbuffed, LB is therefore the bolt of choice on single target.

Note: I felt a bit of Deva Vu after I posted this so I checked and found that I posted this almost 2 weeks ago as well, top of page 131.

Jessamy · 10/28/08, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by -Abakus-

is there any word on whether or not the orc racial Command (5% bonus pet damage) applies to Feral Spirit?
I couldn't find anything on the 3.0.2 compilation page, and i searched this thread with the search function, so i'm sorry if it has already been answered.

Live servers are down for weekly maintenance, so I made a level 1 Orc Hunter on Northrend server. Taken from the tooltip in game:

Command
Damage dealt by Death Knight, Hunter and Warlock pets increased by 5%.

Southrncomfortjm · 10/28/08, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jessamy

Live servers are down for weekly maintenance, so I made a level 1 Orc Hunter on Northrend server. Taken from the tooltip in game:

Command
Damage dealt by Death Knight, Hunter and Warlock pets increased by 5%.

Yep, deathknight pets get the 5% increased damage but shaman pets do not. Was a reason ever given for this?

Rhaegal · 10/28/08, 11:12 AM

All Death Knights have a pet as a base class skill, just like Hunters and Warlocks. Shaman, however, only get one as a 51-point enhancement talent.

Rouncer · 10/28/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

All Death Knights have a pet as a base class skill, just like Hunters and Warlocks. Shaman, however, only get one as a 51-point enhancement talent.

What does that matter? Once we take the talent, we have a pet and it should be affected by Command.

Malan · 10/28/08, 11:48 AM

It's not a permanent pet, it's not the same thing. As blizz has said many times, the system isn't set up that way. Pets through talents are not the same in the system as pets that are part of the class apparently.

Definitely something that could be asked about, but I imagine they're just going to say the same line.

Rouncer · 10/28/08, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

It's not a permanent pet, it's not the same thing. As blizz has said many times, the system isn't set up that way. Pets through talents are not the same in the system as pets that are part of the class apparently.

Definitely something that could be asked about, but I imagine they're just going to say the same line.

DK ghoul is not a permanent pet either.

(e) also what about talented DK temporary pets like the blood worms and the gargoyle. According to your logic they shouldn't be affected by command but I would bet that they will be affected by it or it will be considered a bug based on the wording in that tooltip.