Ridan

They can be through unholy tree.

 

Rouncer

Except that is through a talent and Malan just said that talented pets should not be considered as pets in regards to that racial.

Doesn't make sense for them to exclude Shaman from a Racial talent.

(e) either that or make sure that the other talented DK pets are unaffected by that Racial since otherwise it is a clear bias against Shaman. I would prefer to believe that they forgot about the dogs when rewriting that tooltip then that they decided to exclude shaman on purpose.

 

Malan

The pet is not out permanently, but it's part of their class, it's built in. Blood Worms and Gargoyle likely fall into the same category as Feral Spirit, they're treated more like an "ability" than as a "pet".

I think you should look at this way. DKs all have a permanent pet essentially, except by default it has an imposed 2 minute "time to live" that you have to put talents in it to make it permanent. The pet is inherent to their class though.

Shamans have a single talent tree that grants access to a "pet ability."

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

Should the base ghoul really be considered a pet though? No pet bar and no control over it's actions makes it seem more like a minion then a pet (unless that was changed, I haven't played with my DK in over a month).


In the end we are arguing semantics about something that could go either way. It is up to Blizzard to define what is or is not meant by a pet and what Command will or will not affect. If they had left Command as only affecting Hunters and Warlocks I could very easily accept the above rationale but DK ghouls are not really pets without talent points in Unholy (they are very similar to the Fire/Earth Elemental just on a much shorter cooldown)and that opens a door that could swing both ways in regards to Feral Spirits. I already posted the question in the Beta forums guess we'll just have to see if the developers notice.

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Pulling the conversation away from pets, which I'm fine with orcs not getting the bonus, it would just give yet another reason why my tauren will underperform orc shaman... I've been running recently with only 1 point in Imp SS giving it a 9 second cd instead of 8. My opening on every mob was always SS,ES,LL, this caused a huge backup of cd's as ES would come off at 7.5, SS would come off at 8, and LL at 9. With a properly implemented ES glyph this isn't as big of a problem, as you'd be able to ES and SS, and just delay LL by half a second. But I constantly runs into this problem, even on boss fights, and when prioritizing ES after the initial SS.

0-SS, 1.5-ES, 7.5-ES, (delayed 1s) 9-SS, 13.5-ES, 17-SS, 19.5-ES, 25-SS, (delayed 1s) 26.5-ES, 32.5-ES, (delayed 1s) 34-SS. So we get 2 seconds of delay ever 26.5 seconds just looking at the ES/SS rotation.

Or, with a rotation where we hold SS if ES will come off cd during the GCD of SS we get.
0-SS, 1.5-ES, 7.5-ES, (delayed 1s) 9-SS, 13.5-ES, 17-SS, 19.5-ES, 25.5-ES, (delayed 2s) 27-SS, 31.5-ES, 35-SS, 37.5-ES, 41-SS, 43.5-ES, 49.5-ES, (delayed 2s) 51-SS. Which gives 2 seconds of delay every 24 seconds. The extra talent point is essentially only getting put to use 1 out of 3 SS.

Meanwhile, with a 9 second SS, the opening looks like
0-SS, 1.5-ES, 7.5 ES, 9-SS, 13.5-ES, 18-SS, 19.5-ES, 25.5-ES, 27-SS... A rotation with no overlaps.

Figuring in MW procs, the worst thing that it can do to this base "rotation" is back up both ES and SS cooldowns on top of each other. Based on priority, we then ES-SS which resets the 24 second "delay" countdown in the second rotation negating the negative aspect of the 8 second SS cooldown. And doing nothing to the 9 second rotation. But, with slam casting LB with 4 stacks of MW not showing to be a dps loss I tend to do that if ES & SS are on cooldown. If either are available, then I won't delay it unless LB gets to 5 stacks. This cuts down on the number of times MW backs up the ES & SS cooldowns.

With the ES glyph properly working you get

0-SS, 1.5-ES, 7.5-ES, 8-SS, 13.5-ES, 16-SS, 19.5-ES, 24-SS, 25.5-ES, 31.5-ES, 32-SS... Which works out to be a non-overlapping rotation again.

Again, I know MW takes priority over everything else, but the delays caused by it should be approximately the same in all cases. And as LL is just a filler for when you have a spare GCD, it shouldn't affect any of the rotations. In any case, none of that may make sense to anyone else, but that's been my rationale for only taking 1 point in Imp SS thus far, and also could show a non-simulator reason for why the ES glyph is worth taking at 80.

 

Rouncer

In testing on the sim I find that prioritizing Earth Shock always gives more dps, this is further increased by adding the glyph.

As for 1 versus 2 points in Imp SS. Right now 1 point is probably sufficient but once we level to 80 it will be offset by Static Shock and the need to have enough charges available to account for all possible nature attacks as well as the Static Shock procs.

Instead of simply comparing the "time-lines" looking for holes. Use the Sim. Make 2 builds, one with only 1 point in Imp SS and the other with 2 and then change priorities and see what the dps looks like. If you are able to establish conclusively that it is better to go with only 1 point in Imp SS with that technique I'm sure we would all love to know about it.

(e) to change a word

 

Ilmatar

I have been using 1/2 Imp. SS. I only ran through the sim 1x with each spec, so it is not great data, but both the sim and real world testing has shown some improvements. I won't know for "sure" until Brut this week again.

[Edited: No idea what I was thinking when I wrote the rest of this, it makes no sense.]

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Sims are great, I've used Yo's for every upgrade I've gotten in BC, however they still have limitations and not all dilmneas can be solved on them. For instance, in the second case above, I was holding off on SS because ES was coming off cooldown .5 seconds later. Currently, the sim doesn't do that. It also doesn't lead with a SS because ES is a higher priority. Now yes, on long boss fights with no movement it won't matter much in the end, the SS debuff will almost always be up (right after they fix other shaman taking away our debuff), but on bosses with adds, or trash, skill cooldowns overlapping are a big difference in dps, especially when that happens only 8 seconds in. Yeah, I'm probably being greedy in trying to maximize my overall dps instead of boss dps, but when everything is this nerfed it's not that big of a deal, and I'm tired of all those hunters beating me all the time . But in any case, 2/2 simmed out to be 1% dps (20) more than 1/2 with my gear/build and full raid buffs over 100k hours using a SR, ES, MW4_LB, SS, LL priority system.

But yes, I completely agree that at 80 it will be crucial to spec 2 points into Imp SS simply so the charges aren't all getting eaten up before you can refresh. And with the ES glyph properly working everything theoretically fits so nicely again.

 

Rouncer

So 2/2 was better. Why are we talking about this then?

As for the Sims priority system, yes it has limitations but nothing is ever perfect and over a long enough period of time it will all even out anyway. Besides why wouldn't you want to lead with an Earth Shock anyway since you can use that while moving into melee range and get some early damage instead of just waiting till you are in melee range to start with a Stormstrike.

 

Malan

How so? It wasn't long ago in this thread that Pitbuller and others were saying that it made on the order of 10 dps difference between using an "optimized" rotation versus the worst possible one that we could think of.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rouncer

Never said it was a huge difference but it is enough to be significant. 10dps is a misnomer since I think the rotation Pitbuller was assuming was the absolute worst actually was a middle of the road rotation.

It's about 1.2% between best case scenario and worst case scenario. 1.4% when you add in the Earth Shock glyph which makes it so that Earth Shock should be the number one priority under all circumstances.

Averages out to about 0.5% if you are using a castrandom macro versus priorities (roughly 20dps), assuming manual casting of MW5-LB as highest priority. If ES glyph is fixed then it should become highest priority since moving that in front of MW5-LB is another 0.2%.

The numbers are small though and if it comes down to perfect rotation and standing in the fire or using the /castrandom and being aware that there is fire it is better to use the /castrandom. Only reason I am arguing the point in the first place is that the other poster was implying that there was a better sequence with significantly more dps by only taking one point in Imp SS and I don't believe that to be true and I don't believe his sequence was optimized dps in the first place.

Currently I'm just sticking to a /castrandom for SS and LL and keeping ES and MW5-LB/CL as separate options. The new display in totemtimers is really nice and I add the sound for MW4 from shockandawe to make it easy to know what to do next. I macroed the mouse button that controls the macro for SS/LL to spam the button 4 times when pressed with no delay and that seems to remove any issues with it selecting a spell already on cooldown and saves my hand from carpal tunnel by not requiring me to spam the button as much.

 

Toots Hepcat

Just to put in $.02...what you lead off with has little to do with priority, and the sim doesn't concern itself with the leadoff because its fights last 1000 hours, something no gamer has to deal with outside of Everquest. Priority is really for that time AFTER you've dropped your totems, engaged a mob and want to know what buttons to push to make it die. Furthermore, on many fights you can probably lead off with Earth Shock anyway, since you can do that while moving and from 20 yards away. Hit it at max range and it'll be half way through the cooldown by the time you reach striking distance.

Trash DPS isn't greedy, it's great; in a time-constrained guild, bringing down the trash in a timely fashion can mean the difference between a 2 boss night and a 3 boss night.

As for "holding off on SS" -- simulation (and theory, and extensive testing) suggests you really don't benefit from holding off on anything for any reason other than priority. You turned a 1s wait for the GCD on Earth Shock into a 2s wait for SS -- and pushed back your MW cycle as well. The result is a net loss to DPS.

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Like I said, 2/2 was better for a stand still, single target boss fight, which is all that the simulator simulates. So for trash, for fights with adds that melee have to kill, fights where the boss "resets" between phases, the simulator isn't as valid. I generally don't lead with an ES because unless the tank intercepts/charges to start the battle, I'm never more than 2 steps behind him and ES doesn't have it's threat reduced by Spirit Weapons, so by the time he's built up enough threat for me to be able to attack, I'm already in melee range.

Hehe, too true, unless you're a resto shaman in 2v2s against a resto druid... The only time I've used BL 3 times in an arena, and then had to forfeit anyway because my partner was tired of being dead and the druid and I were both still over 50% mana.

I suspected holding off on SS (or any ability for that matter) would be a dps decrease, just threw out the second rotation to see if it lessened the delay time. However, with the ES glyph, in that situation it might actually be better to wait, converting a 1 second wait on using ES to a 1 second wait on SS, provided the SS debuff is still up on the mob. I can't wait until the finally fix it so other shaman aren't eating our debuff.

 

Brachamul

I have a simple question, I would like to know what the ideal weapon speed would be if i wanted to maximize the amount of windfury procs per minute with a 2 handed weapon. I mean the weapon speed on the character sheet, which would include haste and windfury totem bonuses, not actual weapon speed.

Is 3.0 seconds to make sure the cooldown is cleared everytime I hit? Or would server lag or such make it different?

(This is just a technical question, I know that using a two-hander is not an optimisation of DPS in any way.)

Thanks for your help.

 

Kletha

3.01 in weapon speed would be optimal, that way you'd be sure to always be able to proc WF again on next hit.

However, the speed doesn't matter if you just want to maximize the number of WF procs you get as it's always 20% chance to proc it. Over a long enough time you'll proc the same amount of WFs.

Well, maybe not really as more hits -> more chances to proc WF (down to the maximum of 1 WF proc every 3 secs) but the percentage will still be the same.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/aginor82.png

 

Mman

This is just anecdotal, but I'd imagine the slower the weapon is the better. I'd imagine with haste even the slowest weapon is going to drop down below the 3.0 range though. The best advice I can offer is to do some testing with your gear and various weapon speeds. Nobody has done testing with 1handers because, as you have said, it isn't near optimal dps.

 

Malan

How is this even a real question? Slower is better.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

kelben

I've been messing around with that random cast macro and its been interesting, but having SS, LL and ES on /random and maintaining LB on a seperate key seems to yield the best dps. Including LB on the cast random every so often cause my toon to get stuck for a few seconds in casting mode interrupting the melee attacks which results in a DPS loss. However, with just the three attacks in the macro I'm definately pulling superior DPS in comparison to my completely manual dps rotation (I'm simply incapable of hitting the right key in the rotation the second its cooldown is over, my reaction time varies constantly)

Considering my best DPS cycle (ES,SS,LL) sims to around 3022, and my worst cycle (LL,SS,ES) sims at 3011, I'm risking a possible 11 dps loss by using the macro over human reaction time. Out of all possible cycles, 2 cycles are simmed at the 3011 mark, and 3 are simmed ~3020 mark, I'm not overly worried about the possible DPS cycle loss. I wish there was a way to build a true conditional macro but it doesn't appear possible.

Oh and the Auto Hot Key Thread is also an excellent choice for using this macro

Haste is the devil...

 

Ardonomus

This has already been tried, and there's found a solution to it as well. See above.

Personally, I find the spamming version of DPS extremely boring. Binding a spam-macro to your mouse wheel and sitting scrolling for 4+ hours straight just isn't that fun.

A way of making your spam-macro even better would be, as also suggested two pages back, to put in more of the spells you want the highest probability of casting. After all, three LB's in a macro has a higher chance of being chosen than just one LB in the /castrandom macro.

 

Rouncer

I tried that and it's actually not a good idea unless you have something set up to spam the command far more often then you physically can do (even with a mousewheel). Issue is that when you set up a priority like that where you have more of a single spell listed in the macro when that spell is on cooldown it will have a higher incidence of being selected and so requiring you to hit the button a second (or third or fourth) time to actually get something to happen.

Currently I am pretty happy with my PvE setup, I use separate binds for LB/CL and Earth Shock and a /castrandom macro for Stormstrike and Lava Lash. That way I can keep what should be the highest priorities as the highest priorities and if one of those isn't ready to be cast I can just hit the macro and let either of the other two do their thing.

 

dedmonwakeen

I'm trying to understand the distinction of the "guardian" subset of pets.

As far as I can tell Guardians do not seem to suffer from lag nor do they benefit from auras.

Are the Spirit Wolves considered "guardians"? If so, do they follow this same distinction? (ie: lag=o, auras=0)

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Karok(EU)

While I'm not entirely sure whether the dogs are subject to lag or not, I'm quite sure they gain aura's.

This means paladin auras, totems, aoe-proc buffs (UR) and other raidwide things like Heroism and probably even drums (though not tested the latter one).

 

zdkenny

I use the following macro to tie SS and LL to a single key. This may have been posted before, but it's a lot more reliable (and requires less spamming) than the cast random macro for SS and LL.

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=8 Stormstrike, Lava Lash
/startattack

It will cast SS, switch to LL, then back to SS (or if it times out it goes back to SS) If you have a longer cooldown for SS, just use that instead of '8' (your options are 8, 9, or 10).

 

david0925

Lava Lash is on a 6 second cooldown, so you're losing instant attacks if you're not earthshocking or throwing out lightning bolts when SS is on CD and LL is not.

As it is right now, I think cast random on LL, LV, and ES with LB on a different button is good. After earthshock glyph, it might be wise to pull ES off to a third button. The counter argument for that is that if you're tracking 3 button cooldown you might as well do all 4. All it comes down to how much attention you can pay to not screw up your rotation, and how much attention are left for you to not die in a fire (or "invisible" void zones)

Maniq is my hero

 

zdkenny

Yea, sorry, I should clarify. I use the correct priority, I have button "1" bound to this macro and separate buttons for ES, LB, and CL (for aoe situations). So, I don't hit this macro twice in a row, it just conveniently puts the correct spell on my "1" button. It's more of a space saver really.