Talaus-Mok'Nathal

By longer lasting fights, I'm assuming you're talking about running out of mana. In that case Earth Elemental won't help at all. At lvl 70, Water Mastery gives 15 mp5 when you're using water shield, at 80 this is doubled to 30 mp5. Glyph of LB gives 10% off LB costs, assuming 1 LB every 8 seconds or so you're saving ~34 mana every 8 seconds at 70 or 21.25 mp5, and ~44 at 80 or 27.5 mp5. However, at 80 Static Shock should be used, so the benefits of the WM glyph are gone. As far as the Earth Shock glyph, it's going to cause you to run out of mana slightly faster. The real goal is to be able to last 2 minutes before running out of mana, because you can pop SR every cd and refill your entire mana bar.

Shifting topics, I remember at one point in time a blue posted saying that Mental Quickness was supposed to reduce the mana cost of the talented instant cast GW, it currently does not affect MW-hasted spells and I get the feeling that it's supposed to be that way, but has anyone read/heard anything that can confirm that?

Gunner, yes FTT and FT are supposed to stack now. FTT doesn't create a weapon imbue anymore, rather a straight SP buff. Enjoy the extra damage .

 

Pitbuller

Have anyone noticed how bad our new totem from Grizzly Hills are. Blizzard don't seem to use any item budget when they invent new relics. Enhancement relic give 25damage to skill with 6s cooldown. Elemental relic give 121damage to skill with 8s cooldown and 1.5s talented cast time and lava burst allways crit. Sure elemental shaman can say that lavaburst relic is bad too but its still least four time better than enhancement relic. Those are same item level and cost.

I thinked that lava lash glyph was bad design but this relic is even worse. Maybe thats just typo and 125 is real value? If you click to effect it say:
Copy/paste coding give us bad relic.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

okna

Yes, that was my intent, and surprisingly all 3 of the glyphs I tested resulted the average fight time before I ran out of mana to be 1 minute 51 seconds. So I can certainly see how the ES glyph will shorten that even more, but I'm sure our gear will have more INT/mana to allow us to last through it for at least the minimum 2 miniutes. So I think for the next few days I'm just going to stick with the Earth Elemental glyph because it produced a higher average dps.

Now, if we're to be using Static Shock at 80, what will be the build be like? (my guess) (Sorry if this has been discussed, please point me where if so) But this brings up lots of questions for me like, what are we doing with things like Dual Wield Specialization, Imp SS, Imp Shields? How do we get down to Elemental Fury? Do we go full Maelstrom or do we make it like this?

Still would like a pointer to the LvB discussion not being in Maelstrom anymore, if there has been. Thank you.

 

Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Yeah, based on that I think it's safe to say I'm not upgrading my relic until Nax... Although I'm not real sure which relic is going to end up ideal yet from there either. We're looking at Totem of Splintering, Totem of Dueling, Totem of the Elemental Plane, Deadly Gladiator's Totem.

The EP and Dueling ones are easy to compare. 75% uptime on 60 haste = 45 haste or 15% chance to proc 196 haste off LB (assuming 8 seconds between LB) with .15*10/8=.1875 uptime or the equivalent of 36 haste.

Totem of Hex gives us 182*.7143*1.05(Concussion) = 136.5 more base damage on LB, assuming 25% spell crit that's 136.5*(.75+.25*2(With Elemental Fury))/8=21.3 more dps. Finally Totem of Splintering:

Base: 1.4(Elemental Weapons)*(373(Base Weapon Damage) + (2.6(Weapon Speed)*(3000(AP)+1250)/14))=1627
With Totem: 1.4*(373+(2.6*(3000+1462)/14))=1682
With WF Glyph Base: 1.4*(373+(2.6*(3000+(1250*1.4))/14))=1757
Totem & WF Glyph: 1.4*(373+(2.6*(3000+(1462*1.4))/14))=1834

To make it easier I'm assuming wf procs on an average of every 4 seconds, with MH enchanted only. So without the glyph you get 55*2/4 = 27.5 dps and with it you get 77*2/4 = 38.5 dps. With a 5 second average proc time we get 22 and 30.8.

Finally, Totem of Deadly Gladiator. Since LL is a lower priority, we'll probably only keep a 6/7 or 6/8 uptime on it, so it's equivilant is somewhere between 90-105 AP, which according to EP values beats out Totem of Dueling.

So we're down to 90-105 AP or 38.5 dps. As per Pitbuller, 1.82 AP ~ 1 DPS at lvl 80, so the Deadly Gladiator wins out. Have fun PvPing for your PvE upgrades.


Edited to include Deadly Gladiator, then again to redo AP->dps comparisons

 

Bart00

There's also the Deadly Gladiator one.

 

Pitbuller

3ap = 1dps was true before 3.02 patch.

After 3.02 patch:
At 70lvl with sunwell gear 1ap = 0.6dps -> 1.67ap = 1dps.
At 80lvl with naxx 10-man gear 1ap = 0.55dps -> 1.82ap = 1dps.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Kletha

I read somewhere someone saying that at 80 the mana costs had gone up by 20% (?) but that the mana from gear and similar had gone up 35-45% (?) which would render mana a nonissue (pretty much).

What good does the earth elemental totem do? It just shortens your cooldown on your earth elemental. Are you telling me that you really use your earth elemental that much? And if you want maximum damage why not use fire elemental? That's the dps one.

You haven't read anything about the enhance shammy changes for the last months have you? LvB was taken off maelstrom in beta (2 major patches before live if I remember correctly).

At 80 and raiding I'll most likely spec something like this. The 3 points in elemental warding can be placed somewhere else, I just assume that there'll be a lot of fire and frost in the expansion and this makes survivability a little higher from AoE.

And finally I'd like to ask you to use the excellent search function on this forum before asking questions that have been discussed several times before.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/aginor82.png

 

okna

I apologize, I was actually referring to the Lava Lash glyph and not the Earth Elemental glyph because I read that Elemental glyph was as being the same thing as the Lava Lash one, so that’s why I made the mistake. I’d also tried the search feature, but apparently I was not using the correct terms in my search. Thank you for the tip on tree build and I’ll double my search efforts.

 

Southrncomfortjm

Here is a preliminary gathering of the gear I expect enhancement shamans can attain within the first week of reaching level 80 (so pre-Naxx, since I expect that enhancement shamans in high end raiding guilds will be hitting naxx within a week or so of getting to 80).

Level 80 Pre-Naxx Gear

I included 1 piece of badge gear, that being the offhand weapon Pride, but you could easily opt for getting a Mirror of Truth instead. This may not be a bad idea since there are some good 1 handers in 10 man Naxx but not many trinkets. Loaltheb's Shadow is a very nice trinket and it drops in 10 man naxx, so whether you choose to get a weapon or a trinket first you should be fine heading into Naxx.

Anyways, the gear I listed is high on hit (347 hit rating) and pretty good on expertise (157) along with about 1918 AP (depending on number of points in ancestral knowledge). This is without gems or enchants.

Using these combat ratings as a guide, 347 spell hit equals about 13.22% spell hit, leaving you just about 23 hit rating short of spell hit cap, easily taken care of with some hit food, a hit elixir or possibly even Enchant Weapon - Accuracy.

A noticeable shortcoming on this set of gear is a shortage of crit rating (only 52 on the gear I chose). Obviously this will go up with naxx gear, but with this gear spell crit would be somewhere around 12% and melee crit somewhere around 20% with talents, before buffs.

Interestingly, the only pieces that survive to level 80 and into naxx for me are my trinkets. I only have up to BT gear, so your results may vary with Sunwell gear. Hope you guys find this useful.

 

Rouncer

Couple of things to keep in mind.

- You probably won't be exalted with any northrend faction when you enter Naxx unless you literally stop leveling and just work the faction which really would be silly. One of the bigger changes with Rep factions is that if you wear the Tabard of a faction you get rep for that faction when in an instance (such as Naxx) so there really isn't as much of a need to rep grind.

- The badges for those weapons/trinkets come from killing things in Naxx and the other starter 10 man zones, so they aren't really starter weapons but rather something akin to the badge weapons to make up for a shitty drop rate on weapons you really want.

- Naxx is easy. It's very Puggable for the 10 man so I would expect that you will be seeing loot from there while you are still wearing level 70 purps from SWP/BT. Don't get me wrong, it's still a very fun instance with some challenging aspects but you should really plan on getting in there the moment you hit level 80.

 

Malan

You can get revered for the pants pretty fast though Rounced. Only takes like 3-4 days of doing the dailies once you finish the main quest line. And I hit exalted with the DK faction after just a few days of instance grinding on beta by wearing the tabard.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

dedmonwakeen

I've been going over Enhsim combat log that was given to me to make sure SimulationCraft conforms to Enhsim models and one discrepancy I noted was that simcraft only allows Lightning Shield procs to occur from melee attacks (so no FT procs, no MW-casts) while Enhsim appears to proc LS on all damage events.

I thought this was changed recently to be only weapon-attacks...... perhaps I was given an "old" combat log?

EDIT: I found another difference: 8% vs 16% for Searing Totem spell power coeff

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Rouncer

But you were 80 then right?

He said pre-naxx and I was just saying don't plan on having all those things before you enter Naxx.

There is blue crafted gear that should be nice to full holes and there are blue weapons that should be easily available through rep and through honor but I wouldn't be counting on the epic pieces from rep factions before you are already sporting some Naxx purps.

 

Malan

Honestly most of the faction pieces are totally replaced by stuff even in 10 man naxx, so unless you are casual enough that you aren't even doing 10 mans, most of those items aren't going to see too much use. I'm honestly puzzled at how the rep game played out in this expansion. Some of the factions have items that are excellent for Enhancement as early as level 76 (the frenzyheart stuff) but you'd have to do several days of dailies to get them and they barely keep pace with heroic items.

I'm totally with you though, based on my beta experiences I fully expect to be wearing every item I currently have, minus weapons, when I step into naxx.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Caggy

Well part of the dailies take place right where you're questing. And from what I can tell of the expanded levels, you will be questing for quite some time. Also most dailies tend to cap out at honored. The AC dailies in Zul'Drak did just that. The Ebon Hold ones in Icecrown didn't seem to, but that area is where you'll most likely hit 80 in. I did most of them for the XP though, as I was in beta before the northern zones opened up.
Mostly though these items will be filler/offspec stuff though.

 

Malan

Ebon Hold and Frenzyheart dailies will take you all the way to exalted.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• Chicken

Unless it was changed in the last two weeks before the beta was taken down, the Argent Crusade dailies in Zul'drak definitely gave reputation past honored. I got revered from doing those while checking out what kind of extra rewards you get for doing it fast enough.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Cruelty

So Ive been messing about on the dummys with different trinkets and found something I think some of you might be interested in.

The Lightning Capacitor gains charges from Flame tongue attacks.

Im finding with my current gear levels and TLC on I can push about 2-2.1k dps on the 70s dummies.

Has anyone else looked at TLC as being a viable trinket using a fast OH and FT imbued?

My testing on the dummys is putting the TLC ahead of Crusader Card and DST. I dont have Madness to test

 

Orlgin

The problem with The Lightning Capacitor are these:

1) Requires a suboptimal build atm: Lightning Knives. You need two fast weapons with FT to make this produce worthwhile output. However, due to Maelstrom Weapon's PPM mechanic, using fast weapons robs you of Maelstrom Weapon charges. Slow Weapons produce more charges with instant attacks and we have three versions: Windfury, Stormstrike, and Lava Lash. So in order for TLC to be viable, it needs to produce more DPS than a competing trinket and the difference in DPS from the optimal build.

2) TLC has a 2.5 second cooldown. Once you build three charges and fire a lightning bolt, you are required to wait 2.5 seconds. This makes it scale poorly with haste which is ironic since large amounts of haste are required to make a Lightning Knives build viable. Think about Windfury and it's problem with haste: TLC has the same problem.

Both The Lightning Capacitor and The Thunder Capacitor have this issue. Requiring two fast weapons means they are required to produce enough DPS to overcome the deficit that occurs when you use a less optimal weapon setup as well as the trinket that would have replaced it.

Edit: I find it interesting that it does more damage than Dragonspine Trophy with your setup in your tests. The math seems very odd. The Lightning Capacitor only gets a damage bonus from Concussion (5%), no spell damage bonus, and only gets 1.5 times crit regardless of whether you have Elemental Fury or not.

Edit2: Lightning Knives was a term coined by Toots. I just use it. While it involves changing weapons and weapon imbues, this changes also the EP values given by the sim. Which makes sense since using fast weapons means less melee damage and more spell damage. For example, Haste and Critical Rating will have higher values but AP and Agility will have lower values. Int will have a higher value since spell critical is more important.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Malan

This is a really dumb meme. It's not even a "build", it's just a difference in equipped weapons and imbues.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Cruelty

Did a bit more messing around with auto attacks on the level 60 training dummies just to see if I can see the difference with TLC vs other trinkets.

WF/FT Slow Fast with TLC:

Recount - Damage Done for Expert's Training Dummy 08:39:45-08:52:25
1. Cruelty 1001412 (1309.7, 100%)

Cruelty's Hostile Attacks
1. Melee 1248 629104 (63%)
2. Windfury Attack 112 174361 (17%)
3. Flametongue Attack 792 142534 (14%)
4. Lightning Bolt 59 49893 (5%)
5. Siphon Essence 276 5520 (1%)

WF/FT slow Fast with DST:

Recount - Damage Done for Expert's Training Dummy 08:39:45-08:52:25
1. Cruelty 1005911 (1444.3, 100%)

Cruelty's Hostile Attacks
1. Melee 1183 611001 (61%)
2. Windfury Attack 150 252623 (25%)
3. Flametongue Attack 749 137407 (14%)
4. Siphon Essence 244 4880 (0%)

WF/WF Slow/Slow (2.8/2.5) with DST:

Damage Done for Expert's Training Dummy 09:13:52-09:25:23
1. Cruelty 1003434 (1439.5, 100%)

Cruelty's Hostile Attacks
1. Melee 906 650797 (65%)
2. Windfury Attack 290 349477 (35%)
3. Siphon Essence 158 3160 (0%)

So this is all just weapon imbues different combos and Totems down (SOE, WF, FTT). Just looking for others opinions at this point. TLC in a raiding situation will proc more again with raid buffs from the increased Crit. Was also thinking that adding in MW LB/CL attacks and Shocks will of course give it more of a buff.

So after those tests I decided to go balls to the wall to get to 1mil damage (mana issues and all) on the 70 training dummy to get some more data.

Slow/Fast WF/FT with TLC:

Damage Done for Master's Training Dummy 09:39:45-09:48:12
1. Cruelty 1021028 (2000.3, 100%)

Recount - Cruelty's Hostile Attacks

1. Melee 875 383741 (39%)
2. Windfury Attack 122 167512 (17%)
3. Lightning Bolt 95 141782 (14%)
4. Flametongue Attack 595 111777 (11%)
5. Earth Shock 47 70392 (7%)
6. Stormstrike 90 49705 (5%)
7. Lava Lash 49 22796 (2%)
8. Flame Shock (DoT) 63 14289 (1%)
9. Flame Shock 17 12396 (1%)
10. Siphon Essence 318 6360 (1%)
11. Chain Lightning 1 1818 (0%)

I will use TLC if we get to raid this coming week before wotlk release. Not that it really matters seeing my gear is going to change once I hit 80

 

Atren

Your WF/WF is very odd, why does not it have any LB or shocks in damage?

EDIT: Ok, I guess that LB with first was TLC. Problem of such testing is you have 0% Elemental devastation uptime with WF/WF which effects FT and TLC very little (Flurry affects it a bit), but has huge effect on melee damage.

 

IMB111

Thank you for the nice list, but according to my ep-Values both Fury of the Encroaching Storm and Fezzik's Pocketwatch are an upgrade over the Darkmoon Card.

 

Southrncomfortjm

Nice, I'll have to test those out with my gear setup.

Also, to Rounced, I may have been a bit optimistic with how much rep I believed I could grind, but with a guild that tends to do a lot of instances it seems possible that with championing you could rocket up the rep ranks rather fast. After 80, log on, do you dailies, then rep grind away till exalted with AC, then move on to the next faction.

I guess I also underestimated how easy naxx is really supposed to be. Also, the idea of missing with a spell now really bothers me, hence the obsession with getting hit capped.

 

Malan

Naxx gear will be available to anyone who can throw 10+ people together in a raid. Sapph and KT are the only encounters that will require some actual competence, and that's mostly "don't stand in the fire." We did a full Naxx:25 in 5 hours with sunwell geared and a few DKs in their quest items, and that was with several fuckups on Sapph and people who hadn't seen all the fights before. Easily had the potential to do a full clear in ~4 hours if the DKs had been geared a little better and if we'd bothered paying attention to class composition.

As best I can tell, gear that drops in heroics is intended for people who intend to never/infrequently raid. Everyone else will just blitz through Naxx as a primary source of level 80 entry gear.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06