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Old 11/12/08, 1:02 AM   2 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #3751
Mengus
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by Talaus-Mok'Nathal View Post
I still don't see how engineering, leatherworking, etc matches up to blacksmithing. Two extra gem sockets is 64 AP, or 32 Crit/Agi/Hit just using rare gems, with epics it's 80 AP or 40 Crit/Agi/Hit. Because they're just sockets, you can gem them however you want, so if you're not hit capped, you get 2 extra hit gems, or crit gems, or whatever. The only other profession with that much customizability is JC. Versus rare gems, JCs get an extra 66 AP or 33 Crit/Agi/Hit, but as soon as epics are re-introduced it drops to only gaining you 44 AP or 21 Crit/Agi/Hit.

Blizzard keeps repeating that they won't put out great BoP recipes, so while you could use LW as a way to get decent pre-Naxx gear, it becomes worthless for anything afterwards except the cheaper leg enchants and the fur linings (which offer 64 AP over the regular enchants).
I thought BS was just one extra socket, because the belt sockets are avaialable to all toons from a blacksmith?
 
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Old 11/12/08, 1:03 AM   #3752
Skiace
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Unclejesse View Post
I hear spirit wolves aren't on the sim you pretentious, faux-elitist homo. I was asking those that were in beta and raided at 80 for their experiences. Not be told off by some 13 year old forum queen.
If you'd kept up with the thread, you'd know that spirit wolves are supposed to scale, but have not on any beta/ptr/live build. GC or someone has posted in the past that they were intended to scale and were doing so on some internal build, but we've never seen it on public servers. Why do you need to sim them while they don't scale? Just let them beat on a dummy for awhile, or track their damage over the course of a raid.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 1:08 AM   #3753
Talaus-Mok'Nathal
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Mok'Nathal
Originally Posted by Mengus View Post
I thought BS was just one extra socket, because the belt sockets are avaialable to all toons from a blacksmith?
Belt socket is available to all toons, but there's gloves and bracers that can be socketed as well. Plus, rumors that weaponsmiths will be able to socket a weapon (based on data mining) and armor smiths will be able to put a meta-socket into their chest (based on Blizzcast #4). Now I'm sure they'll boost the other professions if those rumors come to frutation, but the current benefits are enough for me to switch (as soon as I get my DK to 400+ mining .
 
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Old 11/12/08, 2:13 AM   #3754
Rouncer
Deeper Shade of Blue
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by chadbrochill View Post
at first glimpse this seemed stupid, but he acutally has a point. Wolves do OK, but a constant 5% crit on those abilites(thus increase Elem Dev uptime also).

Any testing?
Call of Thunder is worth ~15dps according to the Sim.

Wolves are up 25% of the time which means if they do more then 60dps while active they are better then Call of Thunder.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 10:12 AM   #3755
Yo!
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Страж Смерти (EU)
WotLK raid itemization

Warning: massive wall of text ahead

Enchants:
Head =
Arcanum of Torment
Requires Knights of the Ebon Blade - Revered
Use: Permanently adds 50 attack power and 20 critical strike rating to a head slot item.
or
Arcanum of Ferocity
Requires Cenarion Expedition – Revered
Use: Permanently adds 34 attack power and 16 hit rating to a head slot item.
No need to stop leveling to get that rep for new enchant as Arcanum of Torment needs hit cap covered to be superior.
Shoulders =
Greater Inscription of the Axe
Requires The Sons of Hodir – Exalted
Use: Permanently adds 40 attack power and 15 critical strike rating to shoulder armor.
Body = all stats +10
Back = 22 Agi or 23 Haste
Bracers = 38 AP or 15 Expertise, use expertise while leveling, replace with ap when raiding and caps reached.
Hands = 44 AP or 20 Hit or 15 Expertise, use expertise while leveling, replace with ap when raiding and caps reached.
Legs =
Icescale Leg Armor
Use: Permanently attach icescale armor onto pants to increase attack power by 75 and critical strike rating by 22.
Foot =
Enchant Boots – Icewalker
Permanently enchant boots to increase critical strike and hit rating by 12.
Another option – minor speed increase that may be covered by DK aura.
Food =
Rhinolicious Wyrmsteak
Use: gain 40 Expertise and 40 Stamina for 1.00 hour.
or
Fish Feast
Use: gain 80 Attack Power, 46 Spell Power and 40 Stamina for 1.00 hour.
use expertise while leveling, replace with ap when raiding and caps reached.
Potions =
Elixir of Expertise
Use: Increases your Expertise Rating by 45 (14.71 @ L65) of 1.00 hour. Battle Elixir.
Elixir of Mighty Thoughts
Use: Increases your Intellect by 45 for 1.00 hour. Guardian Elixir.
or
Flask of Endless Rage
Use: Increases attack power by 180 for 2.00 hrs. Counts as both a Battle and Guardian elixir. This effect persists through death.
use expertise+int combo while leveling, replace with ap when raiding and caps reached.
Meta = + 3% increased Crit
Gems = will be used as buffer, several slots will be used by hit and expertise gems to reach caps, the rest will be used by whatever is your best dps stat with caps reached
Professions:
Alchemy = 90 AP or (11 Expertise + 11 Intellect)
Mixology Passive
You receive an increased effect and duration when you drink any elixir or flask you are able to make.
Blacksmithing = ~ 140..80 AP (before and after caps with epic gems, that are not available yet)
Permanently add a socket to your gloves.
Permanently add a socket to your bracers.
Enchanting = 64 AP
Enchant Ring – Assault
Permanently enchant a ring to increase attack power by 32. Only the Enchanter's rings can be enchanted.
Engineering = 0
Hebraism = 66 AP
Fire Leaf
Requires Herbalism (325)
Use: Reduces your armor by 100%, but increases your attack power by 400 for 10 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)
Inscription = 64 AP
Master's Inscription of the Axe
Permanently adds 104 attack power and 15 critical strike rating to shoulder armor.
Jewelers’ Art 3 Jeweler's Gems with 21 Expertise or whatever over epic gems plus added bonus of using chromatic dps gems in blue slots. Worth more now as epic gems are not yet available.
"Jewelers Gem: Matches any Socket. Maxiumum of 3 Jeweler's Gems socketed in your equipment"
Leatherworking = 114 AP – (15 Expertise or 38 AP) ~ 65 ..76 AP
Fur Lining – Attack Power
Permanently enchant bracers to increase attack power by 114.
Mining = 0
Skinning = 25 critical strike rating ~ 50 AP
Tailoring = 75 AP – 22 Agi ~ 30 AP
Swordguard Embroidery
Your damaging melee attacks sometimes increase your attack power by 300 for 15 sec.
Arguably best combo will be BS + JC.
Trinkets:
EP used: Crit=Exp=Hit=2 (explained bellow), spell=0.7, haste=1.5, armorpen = 1.66
Disclaimer: those EP values are approximations.
Mark of Norgannon
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40531
69 x 2 + 491*1.5/6 = 260 EP
Leave it to your tanks, you’ll get exp from another sources
Bandit's Insignia
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40371
190 + 1.3(30% crit chance) * (1504+2256)/2 /50 (45 sec hidden cooldown, about 5 sec to fire after that with 15% chance) * 2 (2 ap = about 1 dps @ lvl 80) = 290 EP
Fury of the Five Flights
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40431
Builds 320 ap, needs short warm-up period, save to say EP = 310
Grim Toll
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40256
83*2 + 1.66*612*10/5 = 370 EP
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=44253
90*2 + 300*2 * 15/45 = 380 EP
Loatheb's Shadow
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=39257
84*2 + 670/6 = 280 EP
Mirror of Truth
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=40684
84*2 + 1000/6 (1 ppm comes from http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=28034#comments Hourglass of the Unraveller) = 335 EP
Super Simian Sphere
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37254#comments
?? effect unknown, 5 minutes duration = active most of the boss fights
Blues:
Figurine - Emerald Boar
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=4241
84 + 2*40(sockets) + less than 6 EP from boar = 170 EP
Incisor Fragment
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37723
148 + 291*1.66 /6 = 230 EP
Meteorite Whetstone
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37390
74*2 + 444 * 1.6 * 10/50 = 290 EP
Pendulum of Telluric Currents
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37264
74*1.5 + 1450/60 (about 1 ppm for enh) * 2 = 160 EP
Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37166
55*2 + 670 * 20/120 = 220 EP
Tome of Arcane Phenomena
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=36972
68*0.7 + 256*1.5* 20/120 = 110 EP
Vestige of Haldor
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=37064
65*1.5 + (1024+1536)/2 * 1.3 *2 / 50 = 160 EP
Fezzik's Pocketwatch
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=44014
60 * 1.5 + 432 * 15/120 = 144 EP
Crusader's Locket – outstanding super leveling/grinding and pvp anti-melee trinket
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43829
While grinding @80 without any expertise: 106 + (164 (anti-dodge cap @80 against lvl 80) *3.5 + 258 *3.5(anti-parry)) * 10/50 = 400 EP
boss fight: 106 + 214 * 2 * 10/50 = 190 EP
the more exp on gear you get the less effective trinket becomes
Thorny Rose Brooch
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43836
(43 + 212 * 20/120) * 1.5 = 120 EP
Rune of Finite Variation
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38764
47*2 + 208*1.5 * 20/120 = 145 EP
Blackened Naaru Sliver = 185 EP
Darkmoon Card: Crusade = 170 EP
Shard of Contempt ~= 150 EP
Berserker's Call = 150 EP
Caps and gems interaction:
1. You need to reach exp and spell hit caps first as they get the highest score of 3+ EP, third best usually comes below 2.2 EP.
2. It is easy to reach those caps. If you go all out for those 2 stats with pre-raid gear (input 3.4 in lootrank) you will reach 450 hit 213 exp from gear alone. It is relatively easy to reach those caps using pre-raid gear with exp and hit being valued as much as best dps stat that sim suggests after exp and hit caps reached. However this require using all exp and hit gems, hit or exp consumables on top of that and few non-optimal enchants.
3. While your gems are split between exp, hit and dps stat – those stats are equal in EP value. You may think that you can decrease exp&hit value after caps are reached but doing so immediately requires you to replace all of your gems with dps stat wich in turn requires you to raise exp&hit value in order to reach caps again.
4. With current high-end WotLK itemization you won’t be able to reach caps from stats on optimal gear only with EP value less than the top dps stat. The better gear you get the more spread stats become and more sockets appear. Best dps 10-men gear with hit & exp EPs of 2 comes with 260 hit and 180 exp, the rest to be covered by gems (7 slots + 1 from BS for that purpose).
Conclussion – do not worry about caps too much when you start raiding. Run enhsim with caps reached. Find EP value for the best stat. Use same EP value for hit and exp. Get items based on those values. Use gems to adjust (at the very start of raiding BS with 2 additional sockets comes in handy). Use consumables (food first) if further necessary.

Reaching Spell Hit and Expertise caps with Nax 10 level items options:

Last edited by Yo! : 11/12/08 at 10:23 AM.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 11:11 AM   #3756
Malan
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Thanks for the trinket info Yo!, added that to the wiki. Can you explain the graphic at the bottom of your post? Not sure I understand it - looks like it's just illustrating that most of your hit/and expertise should optimally come on gear?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06
 
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Old 11/12/08, 11:48 AM   #3757
Yo!
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Страж Смерти (EU)
Yes, most hit/expertise comes from gear/ However, you won't be able to cover it all with optimal gear, and Blizz gave us big buffer of gems + food + elixir + enchants so you do not want to worry about caps too much.
Gems are fully convertible in terms of stat per item budget worth, hit&exp food and elixir and enchants are inferior to other options if already capped so generally should be avoided in reaching caps.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 12:10 PM   #3758
Rouncer
Deeper Shade of Blue
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Yo!, nice list but you missed a easily obtained trinket that should be on the list

[Fury of the Encroaching Storm]

(44x1.5) + (280x(20/60))=159
 
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Old 11/12/08, 12:28 PM   #3759
Toots Hepcat
Care for a jelly baby?
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Llane
Just so you guys don't hear any vicious rumors, I threw together an Enhancement module for Rawr. Should be in the next version.

Consider it a proof of concept and little else...it's only got about 10 hours of coding behind it, but a year's worth of research. Eventual goal is to have a fast way to compare gear and optimize things like meta gems and hit and expertise caps. The current version omits a lot of useful analysis data, doesn't work for weapon comparisons (doh!) and seems to be giving me weird values for hit rating (too low) and armor pen (too high).

As you may know, Rawr! uses a flat model for comparisons. This makes it less accurate than the simulator and a poor tool for theorycrafting. However, eventually it should be a great tool for the end user -- a flat model means that rawr can make hundreds of gear comparisons in a minute and tell you which is best.

Current version:
- Doesn't model the GCD
- *Does* attempt to model "feedback" between WF,ED, MW & Flurry
- Only models WF/FT
- Only models the "average" speed of WF...a Bayesian model of WF at each potential speed, weighted with the chance of achieving that speed, would be more accurate w/r to weapon speed modeling.
- Uses all L70 equations (the rest of Rawr is gone to L80 already)

I am not really interested in hearing how it doesn't always line up with the other theorycrafting tools of the moment -- I understand this and am working on it. I am sort of interested in knowing what sort of information you think might be useful from such a tool. Things I've been considering are:
- Display of average weapon speeds
- ED, Flurry and UR uptime readouts
- MW and WF time-to-proc
- Breakdown of total DPS into spell and melee dps, so you can see how much benefit to each class of damage you get from a piece of gear
- Breakdown of each component of DPS in a chart
 
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Old 11/12/08, 12:37 PM   #3760
essex1028
Glass Joe
 
Secrinos
Gnome Warrior
 
Non-US/EU Server
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
Engineering = 0
Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket - Spell - World of Warcraft
Hyperspeed Accelerators - Spell - World of Warcraft

Those don't seem like 0 to me, but then I'm kinda new here...i'm not sure how they stack up to the current hand enchants, but didn't want engineering sounding like it's 100% useless
 
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Old 11/12/08, 1:02 PM   #3761
Yo!
Piston Honda
 
Yo!'s Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Страж Смерти (EU)
They do not stack so need to be better for engineering to be worth something.
340 rating *1.5 EP* 8 sec duration / 120 sec cooldown = 34 < 44 AP from regular enchant. It can be synced with other 2-min cooldowns (at the cost of GCD that is in great demand at time of activating several abilities simultaniously without breaking regular routine much) for bigger effect.
1150*1.3 (from 30% crit with +100% crits with 0 miss) * 2 (ap is expected to be about 0.5 dps increase @80)/60 sec cooldown = 50.
Simulation is required to get accurate EP worth, however it won't change the result - engineering and mining are useless to minimaxers.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 1:42 PM   #3762
Levva
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Khadgar (EU)
Excellent info Yo! and welcome back. Guess it might be quiet here in next few hours/days as everyone hits the levelling curve

Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Author of Rawr.Enhance an automated gear checking program that can generate config files for EnhSim.
Please use the EnhSim by Tukez, Sylvand & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps.
FAQ: Hit cap 342 Draenei, 368 Horde, Expertise rating cap 140 with 3/3 Unleashed Rage. Cap those before worrying about other stats.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 1:51 PM   #3763
KraxisSingular
Banned
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Yo! View Post
They do not stack so need to be better for engineering to be worth something.
340 rating *1.5 EP* 8 sec duration / 120 sec cooldown = 34 < 44 AP from regular enchant. It can be synced with other 2-min cooldowns (at the cost of GCD that is in great demand at time of activating several abilities simultaniously without breaking regular routine much) for bigger effect.
1150*1.3 (from 30% crit with +100% crits with 0 miss) * 2 (ap is expected to be about 0.5 dps increase @80)/60 sec cooldown = 50.
Simulation is required to get accurate EP worth, however it won't change the result - engineering and mining are useless to minimaxers.
And the rocket enchant causes a GCD.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 2:09 PM   #3764
Akkilees
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Magtheridon
Might be a completely useless suggestion but would there be any merit in creating a macro that would let you swap out your melee weapons for a caster weapon and shield every time you get a 5x MW proc so you can hit harder with your LB?
 
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Old 11/12/08, 2:17 PM   #3765
Sydane
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Warlock
 
Arygos
Swapping weapons invokes a GCD and resets your swing timer, massively reducing your DPS far beyond anything you could gain by doing that.

Empathy does not imply approval.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 2:18 PM   #3766
Toots Hepcat
Care for a jelly baby?
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Llane
/facepalm

Swapping weapons trips a GCD and resets the swing timer. Swapping weapons twice is 3s of lost dps time from all cycles, probably more time lost from autoattack cycles including FT and Windfury.

So yeah, it is a completely useless suggestion.
 
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Old 11/12/08, 4:05 PM   #3767
 Giant
Road kill
 
Orc Death Knight
 
<iO>
Twisting Nether (EU)
Forgive the question, but am i right in thinking if we are nearing the 450 required hit rating as Enhancement, the 3 talent points in Duel wield spec will become pointless and can be used elsewhere, ie static shock?
 
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Old 11/12/08, 4:47 PM   #3768
Rouncer
Deeper Shade of Blue
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Giant View Post
Forgive the question, but am i right in thinking if we are nearing the 450 required hit rating as Enhancement, the 3 talent points in Duel wield spec will become pointless and can be used elsewhere, ie static shock?
It's 364 hit not 450. We get 3% hit from raid buffs and spell hit is 26.23 per 1% while melee is 32.79 per 1%.

So that means the 14% spell hit equals 11.1% melee hit.

At 364 hit rating three point in Duel Wield spec is worth ~135dps, 3 points in Static Shock is worth ~150dps and 3 points in reverberation is worth ~190dps. So I guess if you are forced to spec into unleashed rage it makes sense to do something like this.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...35331131231051

But if you have a MM hunter or a Blood DK present you should stick to something like this

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...30331131231051

Shifting the 1 point in Elemental Focus to Reverberation if you have no mana issues whatsoever (which I doubt will happen so I think Elemental Focus will be a necessity).
 
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Old 11/12/08, 5:30 PM   #3769
frozndevl
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Shaman
 
Cho'gall
Again, welcome back to Yo! and thanks for the information. Also, since Toots just let us know he has been working on a Rawr model for us, are you going to be updating your simulator for wotlk? Having a java based alternative to tukez' sim would be a great benefit to the community.
 
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Old 11/13/08, 12:18 AM   #3770
Glodd
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Drenden
If my shaman has two weapons with differing damage ranges, should the one with the higher damage range go in the main hand or the off hand now?

I ask because of Lava Lash.
 
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Old 11/13/08, 11:28 AM   #3771
Toots Hepcat
Care for a jelly baby?
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Llane
Damage range is just meaningless.

All that really matters is speed. Remember: at this point you will have two to three times more total DPS from AP than you'll get from your weapon DPS. You'll get more dps (from SS and WF) out of each point of AP with a slow weapon, even if your slow weapon is lower quality than a faster one.

Slow is good for LL as well, but not AS good as it is for Stormstrike or Windfury.

In short, with two weapons:

- Use the slower one in the main hand, even if it's lower DPS.

- If they're the same speed, use the one with higher DPS in the main hand.
 
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Old 11/13/08, 9:29 PM   #3772
Skiace
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat View Post
Just so you guys don't hear any vicious rumors, I threw together an Enhancement module for Rawr. Should be in the next version.

Consider it a proof of concept and little else...it's only got about 10 hours of coding behind it, but a year's worth of research. Eventual goal is to have a fast way to compare gear and optimize things like meta gems and hit and expertise caps. The current version omits a lot of useful analysis data, doesn't work for weapon comparisons (doh!) and seems to be giving me weird values for hit rating (too low) and armor pen (too high).

As you may know, Rawr! uses a flat model for comparisons. This makes it less accurate than the simulator and a poor tool for theorycrafting. However, eventually it should be a great tool for the end user -- a flat model means that rawr can make hundreds of gear comparisons in a minute and tell you which is best.

Current version:
- Doesn't model the GCD
- *Does* attempt to model "feedback" between WF,ED, MW & Flurry
- Only models WF/FT
- Only models the "average" speed of WF...a Bayesian model of WF at each potential speed, weighted with the chance of achieving that speed, would be more accurate w/r to weapon speed modeling.
- Uses all L70 equations (the rest of Rawr is gone to L80 already)

I am not really interested in hearing how it doesn't always line up with the other theorycrafting tools of the moment -- I understand this and am working on it. I am sort of interested in knowing what sort of information you think might be useful from such a tool. Things I've been considering are:
- Display of average weapon speeds
- ED, Flurry and UR uptime readouts
- MW and WF time-to-proc
- Breakdown of total DPS into spell and melee dps, so you can see how much benefit to each class of damage you get from a piece of gear
- Breakdown of each component of DPS in a chart
Could you possibly post the dll somewhere for the short term? It somehow was omitted from the download pack and I'd be interested in poking around with it.
 
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Old 11/14/08, 11:29 AM   #3773
Endus
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Ravenholdt
Originally Posted by Talaus-Mok'Nathal View Post
I still don't see how engineering, leatherworking, etc matches up to blacksmithing. Two extra gem sockets is 64 AP, or 32 Crit/Agi/Hit just using rare gems, with epics it's 80 AP or 40 Crit/Agi/Hit. Because they're just sockets, you can gem them however you want, so if you're not hit capped, you get 2 extra hit gems, or crit gems, or whatever. The only other profession with that much customizability is JC. Versus rare gems, JCs get an extra 66 AP or 33 Crit/Agi/Hit, but as soon as epics are re-introduced it drops to only gaining you 44 AP or 21 Crit/Agi/Hit.

Blizzard keeps repeating that they won't put out great BoP recipes, so while you could use LW as a way to get decent pre-Naxx gear, it becomes worthless for anything afterwards except the cheaper leg enchants and the fur linings (which offer 64 AP over the regular enchants).
First time poster, long-time lurker. Hopefully I've picked up enough to not make a complete tard of myself here.

Also consider Alchemy. Mixology is both a double duration on elixirs, AND +50% effect on flasks, +25% on elixirs. So the new AP flask, which is +180 AP, will give Alchemists an extra 90 AP, and last four hours. It's not immediately obvious from the tooltip, since it just says "increased effect" and the mouseover of the buff still lists the base flask buff amount, but check your actual stats.

That's slightly more than you're suggesting I could get from Blacksmithing. I'm not gonna say BS is bad; it's more customizeable in terms of the specific bonuses you can get, and there's other items you can get through it that could help. BS also will work when soloing and not using flasks, of course, too. However, Alchemy seems to have a higher put-out if you're just concerned with getting the most itemization points from the profession, above and beyond any crafted items you can equip. It's at least a good competitor.
 
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Old 11/14/08, 6:51 PM   #3774
Malan
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
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[e] oops

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06
 
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