All they have to do is make it so you can't get ooc with a stack of Maelstrom active and that will be a non-issue. I like the idea of it affecting heals, it truly seems like Enhancement shaman could be the closest thing to a true active hybrid in a raid that there has ever been. At very least it will make soloing much easier.
or just change the language to match Presence of Mind where it won't affect spells with a base cast time of 10 seconds or more.
Max rank heals are still limited by our small pool of spell power and they still cost a significant chunk of mana. With Ghost Wolf getting a lot more expensive and the need to use that a lot to stay alive when focused, I don't see it being overpowered since our mana pool is still small, our regen is limited and we won't be able to continue switching and healing for very long before being completely oom.
Elemental fury looks better than it is. If I do overestimeted 40% of damage from crittable spells and I got overestimated 30% spell crit. Elemental fury give +33.33% increase of crit damages(1.5 > 2). Then we will get 0.4*0.3*0.3= 0.036...3.6% of dps increase. I lose 4*dps talents and some utility talent from enhancement tree. So if we get only 0.9% increase of every talent point then elemental fury is worser without counting Feral spirit.
-Weapon mastery is nobrainer. +2% of 60% so 1.2% per talent point.
-Dualwield spec is 0.75% *2 * 60% so 0.9% per talent point.
-1/2 improved stormstike is 1.5% * 60% so 0.9% per talent point + 8 charges per minute.
-2/2 improved stormstike is 1.65% * 60% so 0.99% per talent point + 10 charges per minute.
-Static shock is harder to measure but it looks like 1-2% dps increase per point.
It's even not matter what you will pick all combination of those yields more dps than 3.6%.
All numbers come from Yo's sim. Melee side is lower estimate and spell side over estimate.
Quick question/observations:
1. Dual Wield Spec will not affect 60% of your damage, only 30%. We will be getting enough hit to cap spell hit, which also caps melee hit so the extra % chance to hit is only applied to our white damage.
2. Stormstrike only affects 10% of your overall damage, not 60% as well. There COULD be some bleedover...so perhaps use a 15% figure?
3. Where did you come up with the 0.75 and 1.5% figures?
I'll test this tonight. I wouldnt be surprised if it was a 100% proc rate now though :P
It will still be a Proc Per Minute mechanic, I would bet, cause otherwise it would be too easy to just equip a pair of really fast daggers whenever you use Shamanistic Rage.
The Maelstorm hitting heals is a nice change. I could see if I proc'd elemental fury off of a shock crit, throwing out a chain heal or greater healing wave. It also does seem like it would have more pvp utility since Areana is all about survivability.
Also, as far as Storm Strike and it's 8s cool down, what do the numbers look like if you were raiding in areana gear and had a 7s cool down? This is pure theory, because we don't know what the lvl 80 areana gear will be, but right now, season 4 gear is probably better than T5 gear for pve.
Elemental fury looks better than it is. If I do overestimeted 40% of damage from crittable spells and I got overestimated 30% spell crit. Elemental fury give +33.33% increase of crit damages(1.5 > 2). Then we will get 0.4*0.3*0.3= 0.036...3.6% of dps increase. I lose 4*dps talents and some utility talent from enhancement tree. So if we get only 0.9% increase of every talent point then elemental fury is worser without counting Feral spirit.
-Weapon mastery is nobrainer. +2% of 60% so 1.2% per talent point.
-Dualwield spec is 0.75% *2 * 60% so 0.9% per talent point.
-1/2 improved stormstike is 1.5% * 60% so 0.9% per talent point + 8 charges per minute.
-2/2 improved stormstike is 1.65% * 60% so 0.99% per talent point + 10 charges per minute.
-Static shock is harder to measure but it looks like 1-2% dps increase per point.
It's even not matter what you will pick all combination of those yields more dps than 3.6%.
All numbers come from Yo's sim. Melee side is lower estimate and spell side over estimate.
I don't even know where to begin on how badly you overestimate this. 40% of our damage from spells? 30% spell crit? I can't imagine spells being more than 25% of our damage, AT best. Not to mention a good part of our damage from spells is from the fire shock ticks which isn't affected, and lightning shield which also can't crit.
So unless the feral spirits hits even weaker than treants, going elemental fury is basically like being one of those special kids that goes elemental devastation in BC.
Actually, it'll make us damn near unkillable, unless Maelstrom is purgable. Being able to drop an instant cast max rank heal every 8 to 10 seconds (assuming a 15% adjusted crit rate) is begging for a nerf. Healing shaman only get this once ever 3 minutes.
Do other shamans regularly get 5 melee crits in 8-10 seconds now? I've been watching it since Maelstrom became public knowledge and I average 2 or 3 crits in that time period.
Considering our crit rate is going down in WotLK, it seems like using Maelstrom every 10 seconds is pretty much out the window.
Actually, it'll make us damn near unkillable, unless Maelstrom is purgable. Being able to drop an instant cast max rank heal every 8 to 10 seconds (assuming a 15% adjusted crit rate) is begging for a nerf. Healing shaman only get this once ever 3 minutes.
I think in PvP the mana cost will balance out the healing use of this pretty quickly. You're also not going to stack Maelstrom as quickly in PvP. I don't think it would necessarily be overpowered.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned, but is Mental Quickness reducing the mana cost of the Maelstrom Weapon charged spell?
Actually, it'll make us damn near unkillable, unless Maelstrom is purgable. Being able to drop an instant cast max rank heal every 8 to 10 seconds (assuming a 15% adjusted crit rate) is begging for a nerf. Healing shaman only get this once ever 3 minutes.
Overpowered? I actually think it is very weak in PvP, almost not worth taking for arena. With all the resilience and CC going on, it is really rare to get 5 crits of in a short window, it almost never happens. You are lucky if you would even get 1 crit every 15 seconds without being purged.
Well after reading Vinraka's post I got thinking about what group of talents would provide the most damage in a cycle, such as if 5/5 Reverberation and 2/2 Improved Stormstrike would or maybe a mixture of the both etc.
Well I have planned out the cycles similar to Vinraka's in that respect but now I come to trying to cycle in Lava Burst and I'm unsure how to use the ability. I could try do some quick math but first I'm wondering on people's thoughts.
Should LvB be used the instant you cast flame shock to bring up ED or do you want the flame shock to tick and then use LvB just before you recast flame?
Should the GCD of a LvB be more important than using it for SS?
You're also not going to stack Maelstrom as quickly in PvP.
Just to reiterate: those estimates were made assuming hasted 2.7s weapons and a 15% adjusted crit rate (25% crit - 10% resilience). If you can stay in contact with your foe for 10s of AA and SS, you should see a Maelstrom stack.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 07/25/08 at 2:53 PM.
You're also not going to stack Maelstrom as quickly in PvP./QUOTE]
Just to reiterate: those estimates were made assuming hasted 2.7s weapons and a 15% adjusted crit rate (25% crit - 10% resilience). If you can stay in contact with your foe for 10s of AA and SS, you should see a Maelstrom stack.
Yeah you'd better hope they don't have a rogue on their team, otherwise Maelstrom is worthless in arenas. I think the problem with Maelstorm is it's only going to be useful when you don't need it. You're only going to be able to use it when you're playing against scrubs and you omgwtf them. If you're playing against a good team, you're not going to be on your target long enough to get 5 stacks. Then again, 4 stacks may be useful. We'll have too see, but it looks like 5 points in 10% more armor and -50% slow duration is a better use of 5 points.
Maelstrom Weapon now reduces the casting time of any spell by 4/8/12/16/20% when you critically hit with a melee weapon. (Old version : was only affecting Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst)
Posted on MMO-Champion as well. Now that LvB is 1,2s is it still going to be worth it to stop and cast it. Seems to me like in this version it will take a lot more awareness to make sure you are not pushing into CDs for SS, auto attack and totems. Actually in this version it seems very weak to be in our trees at all as a 45 pt talent.
I'm not making any assumptions on the list posted on MMOchampion. Some of the changes look like errors in updating from the build previous to the one we have in beta now, notably removing thunderstorm and lava burst from concussion, and the threat and hit changes from precision. Feral spirits are also currently 45 sec uptime on beta, not 30 as listed. Also, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't the original wording of Maelstrom Weapon say all spells and it was only changed to state offensive spells in this current build? It's going to have to wait a few hours before I can get home and log in to check any changes, but I'm skeptical about these.
As to the issue with suffering from low crit rates; part of that is due to the way enhance has been gemmed and enchanted. Almost all of us are copying over with STR, STR+CRIT and STR+STA gems and STR enchanted to gloves and bracers. I spent some time copying over a ton of epic gems and enchant mats and managed to get my crit rate back over 30% at 73 using mostly AGI, AGI+hit(due to no agi+crit gems being cuttable now) and CRIT gems, and enchanting AGI to gloves and 4 stats to bracers.
Yeah you'd better hope they don't have a rogue on their team, otherwise Maelstrom is worthless in arenas. I think the problem with Maelstorm is it's only going to be useful when you don't need it. You're only going to be able to use it when you're playing against scrubs and you omgwtf them. If you're playing against a good team, you're not going to be on your target long enough to get 5 stacks. Then again, 4 stacks may be useful. We'll have too see, but it looks like 5 points in 10% more armor and -50% slow duration is a better use of 5 points.
Are you being serious? Really? An instant heal, or an instant DD spell is useless regardless of how you feel. Even a 60% reduction is IMMENSELY HELPFUL in arenas. Not only that, but -crit from resilience DOESNT ALWAYS prevent on crit abilities from proccing:
Players have been reporting that crit-activated abilities activate inconsistantly when they have high resilience, and Drysc explains that this is by design. High resilience can prevent crits from landing -- but to allow crit-activated abilities to still benefit the player, whenever a hit occurs, the crit-activated abilities have a small chance of being activated.
Essentially, even if you have a 25% crit rate, and they have 10% less from resilience, that 10% 'lost' crit rate can still proc MW. It's no wonder shamans are looked at as being bad in PvP when this kind of foolishness runs rampant through the community.
Edit: There are some weird quoting issues...
What I think is more the issue is that whenever you are being peeled by a class with good control, like a frost mage, or rouge or warrior or druid, you will often lost time on target from being out of range. You sometimes can only be on the target for 4-5 seconds before being peeled or kited or stunned or cycloned or rooted. Some of this goes away with spectral transformation, but with enhance's mana issues and the increased cost of ghost wolf, your outs will not be nearly as effective against the teams that can't peel you, like priests and warlocks. Who, by the way, are also the best at mana draining.
However Maelstrom weapon is currently bugged to proc on crits recieved by the shaman as well. It'd be interesting to get this to go live, since that would give us a valuable way of defending against a dps train, more so than blowing our 1 trinket and 2 min SR and equipping a shield and praying for our healer to keep up.
Maelstrom Weapon now reduces the casting time of any spell by 4/8/12/16/20% when you critically hit with a melee weapon. (Old version : was only affecting Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst)
Posted on MMO-Champion as well. Now that LvB is 1,2s is it still going to be worth it to stop and cast it. Seems to me like in this version it will take a lot more awareness to make sure you are not pushing into CDs for SS, auto attack and totems. Actually in this version it seems very weak to be in our trees at all as a 45 pt talent.
Lava Burst is still going to be a guaranteed crit. It's going to proc elemental devistation. It's even going to cause some damage. Once it's fixed it won't reset the swing timer. Even if it only crits for 2k damage, it only cost you 1.5 seconds of your global cool down. It scales. I'll bet that when it's all said and done, Lava Burst is going to be our most consistent and biggest damage use of our GCD that we have.
Maelstrom Weapon now reduces the casting time of any spell by 4/8/12/16/20% when you critically hit with a melee weapon. (Old version : was only affecting Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst)
Posted on MMO-Champion as well. Now that LvB is 1,2s is it still going to be worth it to stop and cast it. Seems to me like in this version it will take a lot more awareness to make sure you are not pushing into CDs for SS, auto attack and totems. Actually in this version it seems very weak to be in our trees at all as a 45 pt talent.
It was always 20%....and it has always stacked 5 times....
This just means that it will affect heals as well as our DD abilities!!
Are you being serious? Really? An instant heal, or an instant DD spell is useless regardless of how you feel. Even a 60% reduction is IMMENSELY HELPFUL in arenas. Not only that, but -crit from resilience DOESNT ALWAYS prevent on crit abilities from proccing:
Essentially, even if you have a 25% crit rate, and they have 10% less from resilience, that 10% 'lost' crit rate can still proc MW. It's no wonder shamans are looked at as being bad in PvP when this kind of foolishness runs rampant through the community.
How do you pvp? You just run up to your target and position yourself behind their back and hack away and never touch your movement keys again because you don't need them? Do the teams you arena against forget they have CC, stuns and snares? Do you forget that your melee attacks don't have a 40 yard range? Does your pvp trinket not have any sort of cool down at all so you can just steady mash it all fight long? Have you never seen a rogue in an arena? How are you able to stay on your target? Please I want to know.
How do you pvp? You just run up to your target and position yourself behind their back and hack away and never touch your movement keys again because you don't need them? Do the teams you arena against forget they have CC, stuns and snares? Do you forget that your melee attacks don't have a 40 yard range? Does your pvp trinket not have any sort of cool down at all so you can just steady mash it all fight long? Have you never seen a rogue in an arena? How are you able to stay on your target? Please I want to know.
We're talking about WotLK. We're talking about having IMP GW and ST for arena builds. We're talking about being VASTLY more mobile in PvP in WotLK. This is a WotLK thread, not a TBC PvP woe-is-shaman thread. And if your not in Beta, you cant make ANY judgments about how good or bad an ability will be Mr. PvP. Please, go back to the WoW Shaman forums and join the rest of the tards in the 'Maelstrom Weapon Sucks' threads.
Just to reiterate: those estimates were made assuming hasted 2.7s weapons and a 15% adjusted crit rate (25% crit - 10% resilience). If you can stay in contact with your foe for 10s of AA and SS, you should see a Maelstrom stack.
Well that's just it, no one is going to let you stand there and beat on them for 10 seconds without you getting CC'd. Assuming fully hasted for pvp is also quite a bit off of reality. Keeping flurry up isn't near guaranteed let alone totems. If you're getting 35 attacks in 10 seconds in pvp or arena, its not against anyone very good.
<edit> As for enhanced improved mobility, shaman aren't the only classes getting new talents.
Well that's just it, no one is going to let you stand there and beat on them for 10 seconds without you getting CC'd. Assuming fully hasted for pvp is also quite a bit off of reality. Keeping flurry up isn't near guaranteed let alone totems. If you're getting 35 attacks in 10 seconds in pvp or arena, its not against anyone very good.
The talents aren't even finalized 'MW doesnt even proc off SS/WF crits yet'. Lets keep the speculation on the PvP viability to a minimum until we get closer to release imho~
We're talking about WotLK. We're talking about having IMP GW and ST for arena builds. We're talking about being VASTLY more mobile in PvP in WotLK. This is a WotLK thread, not a TBC PvP woe-is-shaman thread. And if your not in Beta, you cant make ANY judgments about how good or bad an ability will be Mr. PvP.
As it stands, spectral transformation does nothing to: Cheap shot, gouge, blind, intercept stun, hex, polymorph, HoJ, repentance, chastise, pyschic scream, fear, howl of terror, frost trap, freezing trap, intimidation, hungering cold, death and decay, intimidating shout, cyclone. It does work on: Crippling poison, hamstring, icy touch, frostbite, frost nova, frostbolt, frost shock, entangling roots, conc shot, curse of exhaustion, and wing clip. Out of the list of skills that it does effect, each class has another way to get distance on you ONLY using CC. Rogues also get sprint and Shadowstep and vanish, warriors get intercept, intervene and heroic leap, mages get blink. If you think that being able to remove snares and roots for 13% of our base mana will help us vastly, you're mistaken. It'll help half the time on a good druid, half the time on mages, rarely on hunters due to how frost shock works and almost never on a rogue. Mana drains will make it even harder for us to deal with it; a good priest will destroy your mana.
We're talking about WotLK. We're talking about having IMP GW and ST for arena builds. We're talking about being VASTLY more mobile in PvP in WotLK. This is a WotLK thread, not a TBC PvP woe-is-shaman thread. And if your not in Beta, you cant make ANY judgments about how good or bad an ability will be Mr. PvP. Please, go back to the WoW Shaman forums and join the rest of the tards in the 'Maelstrom Weapon Sucks' threads.
I don't even know where to begin. I suppose you think elemental devistation is a good pvp talent because it's a good pve talent also. The simple fact is that Maelstrom isn't even going to be used unless you're already steam rolling the other team and you don't need it anyway. That makes it a non issue for arenas. Sure it will be great in BGs and some duels, but not in arenas.
Plus I didn't even want to cloud this thread with pvp discussions. It always ends up the same way. The people who only know pve get all huffy because they hate being wrong and then they start name calling. This is a pve discussion anyway. Why are we even talking about this?
07/25/08, 12:37 PM
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