Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 25

Beowolf · 07/25/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Pronk

I don't even know where to begin. I suppose you think elemental devistation is a good pvp talent because it's a good pve talent also. The simple fact is that Maelstrom isn't even going to be used unless you're already steam rolling the other team and you don't need it anyway. That makes it a non issue for arenas. Sure it will be great in BGs and some duels, but not in arenas.

Plus I didn't even want to cloud this thread with pvp discussions. It always ends up the same way. The people who only know pve get all huffy because they hate being wrong and then they start name calling. This is a pve discussion anyway. Why are we even talking about this?

Now I know your trolling. I never mentioned Elemental Devestation ANYWHERE in any of my posts, yet you somehow bring the subject up with 'assumptions' on what I think. Do you know what assumptions do to people? They make you look like an ass.

I wont be feeding this troll any more guys. I suggest you do the same.

Beowolf · 07/25/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

As it stands, spectral transformation does nothing to: Cheap shot, gouge, blind, intercept stun, hex, polymorph, HoJ, repentance, chastise, pyschic scream, fear, howl of terror, frost trap, freezing trap, intimidation, hungering cold, death and decay, intimidating shout, cyclone. It does work on: Crippling poison, hamstring, icy touch, frostbite, frost nova, frostbolt, frost shock, entangling roots, conc shot, curse of exhaustion, and wing clip. Out of the list of skills that it does effect, each class has another way to get distance on you ONLY using CC. Rogues also get sprint and Shadowstep and vanish, warriors get intercept, intervene and heroic leap, mages get blink. If you think that being able to remove snares and roots for 13% of our base mana will help us vastly, you're mistaken. It'll help half the time on a good druid, half the time on mages, rarely on hunters due to how frost shock works and almost never on a rogue. Mana drains will make it even harder for us to deal with it; a good priest will destroy your mana.

Frankly, I've never had much of a problem with being chain stunned in PvP. Sure it happens, an sure its annoying, but any decent team also know how to stop it

My main problem in PvP arenas has always been being kited around. I for one was ecstatic when they removed ISR and replaced it with ST. I know PUSH was as well~

• Shabadu · 07/25/08, 2:49 PM

I guess it goes to the comp that you're playing with. As enh/war/druid going against a war/pal/dru or war/rog/dru team can easily peel me from my target, removing pressure from their druid. Druids that aren't pressured to heal and/or run are free to CC more, thus removing even more pressure from their team.

Beowolf · 07/25/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

I guess it goes to the comp that you're playing with. As enh/war/druid going against a war/pal/dru or war/rog/dru team can easily peel me from my target, removing pressure from their druid. Druids that aren't pressured to heal and/or run are free to CC more, thus removing even more pressure from their team.

Off topic I know, but I've found that its, ironically enough, best for us to pair up with a ranged DPS dealer in 3s. Preferably one with lots of CC 'frost mage'. Though I admit that I haven't spent much time this season PvPing. My guild was pushing for KJ and we just got our first kill last week, and now there's Beta :P

aqt · 07/25/08, 3:01 PM

With the incomming changes to the totem system so that it affects the entire raid(not all as far as I know),what are you oppinion about this?How do you feel about it? I fear that it may exclude some of our spots in the 25raid groups. Of course until we know what totems actually do and do not affect the raid we can only speculate,but that's my general idea. (This goes for all the builds,ele,enhanc,resto).

Pronk · 07/25/08, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

Now I know your trolling. I never mentioned Elemental Devestation ANYWHERE in any of my posts, yet you somehow bring the subject up with 'assumptions' on what I think. Do you know what assumptions do to people? They make you look like an ass.

I wont be feeding this troll any more guys. I suggest you do the same.

Dude you couldn't know less about what you're talking about, even if you never even heard of the game World of Warcraft. Why don't you take your condescending attitude and your ignorance back to the main boards since you're the only one here that even reads them. Until then, keep talking like this is a simple min/max problem. Shhhh... You're all alone here.

Kvlt · 07/25/08, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

Essentially, even if you have a 25% crit rate, and they have 10% less from resilience, that 10% 'lost' crit rate can still proc MW. It's no wonder shamans are looked at as being bad in PvP when this kind of foolishness runs rampant through the community.

Apologies for sidetracking this discussion even further, but so far as I am aware this applies only to abilities that trigger when you receive a resilience-prevented crit; never when you deliver one. So with MW bugged to proc when you're the victim of a crit, your point is valid. With the (fairly safe) assumption that this is unintended behavior and it will be fixed to only trigger when your attacks crit your target, this will not be true.

Malan · 07/25/08, 3:12 PM

Shut up about arena at lvl 80.

Paladia · 07/25/08, 3:17 PM

If it was working on received crits as well (on purpose) it would actually be quite useful in PvP and at least give an initiative to not target the enhancement Shaman first.

Toots Hepcat · 07/25/08, 3:26 PM

I don't know where this "rogues make maelstrom suck" thing is coming from, but I'd like it to stop. It's little but speculative whining; I arena every week and at least once per match I get 10s of contiguous range.

Furthermore, they don't really need to be contiguous. You have 15s in between each crit in which to get another one and restart the clock. Even with CC, you should not be out of combat for more than 15s unless you're being kited, at which point you could just cast the thing normally.

Please: let's not buy in to statements like "you never crit in arena" or "you're never on contact with an enemy for more than a few seconds." I've seen videos of enhancement shamans in arena at the highest level and neither of these is true.

As a piece of off-topic advice: I haven't had many problems with rogues since I learned a little about their mechanics. Start the match in ghost wolf with a shield on, they can't sap you and you have double the armor. They can Cheap Shot you, but that only lasts 4s -- don't trinket it out of it, because what's coming next is Kidney Shot. That lasts 6s and blows their combo load; trinket out of that and the rogue's basically only got Blind left and they only have one of those per match.

darkInertia · 07/25/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by aqt

With the incomming changes to the totem system so that it affects the entire raid(not all as far as I know),what are you oppinion about this?How do you feel about it? I fear that it may exclude some of our spots in the 25raid groups. Of course until we know what totems actually do and do not affect the raid we can only speculate,but that's my general idea. (This goes for all the builds,ele,enhanc,resto).

I don't see this hurting our spot in a raid; if anything, it's a very large buff for us. We will be able to give UR and totems to all melee. It does mean that a second enhancement shaman doesn't provide as much as it currently does, however.

I think the big changes will be in healing: the other three healing classes are getting new talents or improvements for raid healing. Along with not needing one shaman for each group, this means that a raid makeup can be a lot more flexible in which healers you bring to specific encounters. Note that resto shaman are getting their own version for cleanse, as well as buffs to single target healing, so this flexibility is working both ways.

Toots Hepcat · 07/25/08, 3:37 PM

Well, a few things:

1) Our dps will be going up substantially, and we no longer need to trade our personal DPS to enhance the group. We may be in range of rogues/warriors, making the melee classes nearly interchangeable.

2) Each extra shaman brings an extra bloodlust and can drop defensive totems to cut down on healing, spell damage totem, etc.

3) Additional shamans can skip UR and enhanced WFT to spec deeper into elemental for even more DPS.

Anyhow, I look at it this way: there are going to be a minimum of 30 talent trees in WotLK, and only 25 slots in a raid. One of these slots is pretty much guaranteed for enhancement shamans, and you don't give up much by filling 2 or 3. That's pretty good.

Pronk · 07/25/08, 3:57 PM

In addition to what everyone else already said, depending on what happens to hex, that may buy some extra dps shaman spots.

drats · 07/25/08, 4:29 PM

I have a clarification question about ghost wolf being 12% of base mana. I assumed that was a typo and ghost wolf was supposed to be the 51pt talent spirit wolves. Is the regular ghost wolf actually this expensive?

Aezoc · 07/25/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by drats

Is the regular ghost wolf actually this expensive?

Yep. This brings it in line with travel form. I personally feel like it wouldn't be overpowered if it was a little cheaper, considering it's still dispellable and travel form isn't, and WF can't proc while in GW (or has that changed in beta?).

But as many problems as we currently have with being kited in PvP, I'll happily take it as is too.

polocabbit · 07/25/08, 4:43 PM

Has there been any word on your suggestion for a review of Stormstrike, Malan?

drats · 07/25/08, 4:47 PM

Hopefully they'll add a resistance to dispel into spectral transformation or improved ghost wolf. A 50%/100% talented chance to resist dispels would be quite nice.

Freefall · 07/25/08, 4:53 PM

In updated official Talent calculator
Shamanistic Rage nerfed to "chance to regenerate mana equal to 15% of your attack power" and it's still 15s.
So i would like to hear is the proc chance rised or are we just getting huge load of more AP at Wotlk and not so much bigger manapool?

Othieus · 07/25/08, 5:03 PM

Hey guys I'm not optimaly geared as enhance so I don't know the answer to this question so I figured I'd ask someone that does. In BT/Sunwell gear, what would be the average time span to crit 5 times? (for Malestrom procs). Personaly I don't think it's necessary to get reverberation and just having Imp SS will do fine for our dps due to the fact that having both would conflict with the CD cycles. I'm trying to get together a diagram that shows casting cycles (like the one a few pages back) that includes casting a spell from a full 5 stack of Malestrom Weapon.

Also, if anyone knows a good way to demonstrate when to refresh Lightining Shield if the spec included Static Shock then that would be great as well.

Adrammelech · 07/25/08, 5:42 PM

**Removed, misread info.**

Toots Hepcat · 07/25/08, 5:42 PM

This math isn't hard and has nothing to do with your current gear.

2.7s weapons / 1.2 (WFT) / 1.3 (Flurry) = 1.73s swing speed.

69 swings per minute + 15 from SS + at least 20 from WF = 104 swings/minute minimum

If crits make up 30% of your swings, then 31.2 of these will crit. This means on average 1 crit every 1.9s, and an average of 1 Maelstrom 5 stack every 10s or so.

Work backwards from this with some haste procs and extra crit and you'll find what you need to get an average of 1 Mael proc every 8s, to be sure it's always up when LvB is off CD.

dedmonwakeen · 07/25/08, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Stormstrike is of the physical school which makes it an attack and not a spell. Stormstrike - Spell - World of Warcraft
That's why haste rating/spell haste effects don't reduce it's GCD.

It the same for hunters - their shots are "physical" and not affected by GCD, but their traps are spells and affected.

Roywyn, just saw your post and had a few follow-up questions if you don't mind:

So.... I understand spell haste will affect spell cast times, spell channel times, and spell GCDs.

But.... melee haste will affect swing time and nothing else!!??

What about "attacks" that are non-instant, such as Slam? Are they affected?

Bloodlust/Heroism: It follows the same rules as Haste Rating? ie: Will affect spells in various ways, but for melee only the swing time?

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

This math isn't hard and has nothing to do with your current gear.

2.7s weapons / 1.2 (WFT) / 1.3 (Flurry) = 1.73s swing speed.

69 swings per minute + 15 from SS + at least 20 from WF = 104 swings/minute minimum

If crits make up 30% of your swings, then 31.2 of these will crit. This means on average 1 crit every 1.9s, and an average of 1 Maelstrom 5 stack every 10s or so.

My sim output has a Maelstrom-triggered Lightning Bolt going off every 10.7sec on average.
My virtual player is using 2.6/2.5 weapons and is not benefiting from any raid buffs, so a more frequent proc rate is certainly within reason.

Player=Worc DPS=1466.9 DPM=12.5 MPS=117.4 
  Core Stats:  strength=405  agility=160  stamina=415  intellect=105  spirit=120  health=7335  mana=4334
  Spell Stats:  power=400  hit=3.0%  crit=3.6%  penetration=0  haste=0.0%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=1335  hit=15.3%  crit=31.2%  expertise=6.3  penetration=300  haste=0.0%
  Actions:
    earth_shock           Count= 19.0|15.8sec  DPS= 518.5  DPE= 881| 4%  DPET= 518  Miss=13.5%  Hit=1002  CritHit=1503|1518|3.0%
    flame_shock           Count= 24.0|12.5sec  DPS=  78.3  DPE= 875| 5%  DPET= 515  Miss=14.0%  Hit= 431  CritHit= 646| 646|3.0%  Tick=110
    flametongue           Count=152.8| 2.0sec  DPS=   inf  DPE= 135| 5%  DPET= inf  Miss=13.9%  Hit= 157
    lightning_bolt        Count= 27.9|10.7sec  DPS= 594.5  DPE=1011| 6%  DPET= 595  Miss=13.9%  Hit=1154  CritHit=1733|1749|3.0%
    lightning_shield      Count= 46.5| 6.4sec  DPS=1670.4  DPE= 507| 5%  DPET=1670  Miss=14.5%  Hit= 593
    melee_main_hand       Count=158.0| 1.9sec  DPS= 408.4  DPE= 771|28%  DPET= 408  Miss=11.8%  Hit= 702  CritHit=1404|1405|35.1%
    melee_off_hand        Count=151.0| 2.0sec  DPS= 209.5  DPE= 414|14%  DPET= 209  Miss=11.5%  Hit= 375  CritHit= 749| 750|35.3%
    searing_totem         Count=  5.0|60.0sec  DPS=  40.8  DPE=2433| 3%  DPET=2028  Miss=11.3%  Tick=95  CritTick=143|143|3.0%
    stormstrike           Count= 67.7| 4.4sec  DPS=1089.0  DPE= 961|15%  DPET=1089  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 724  CritHit=1448|1500|40.1%
    windfury              Count= 52.3| 5.7sec  DPS=   inf  DPE=1304|16%  DPET= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1070  CritHit=2141|2143|35.3%
RDPS=1466.9
Up-Times:
  Worc_flurry=77.8%
  Worc_unleashed_rage=98.8%
  nature_vulnerability=91.9%

Roywyn · 07/25/08, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Roywyn, just saw your post and had a few follow-up questions if you don't mind:

So.... I understand spell haste will affect spell cast times, spell channel times, and spell GCDs.
But.... melee haste will affect swing time and nothing else!!??
What about "attacks" that are non-instant, such as Slam? Are they affected?

Ranged haste (from quiver, heroism, haste rating) reduces the ranged autoshot timer and the cast time on steady/aimed shot, but not GCDs from shots.
Slam is not affected by haste from what I read, and there are no other non-instant melee attacks.
So melee haste (flurry, SnD, heroism, haste rating) only affect swing timers right now.

Heroism affects ranged/melee/spells indiviually, in the same manner a listed above.

It's getting offtopic though, continue in PMs or in the Haste thread.

Malan · 07/25/08, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Adrammelech

Speaking of bloodlust/heroism, anyone else have a sneaking suspicion that it's going the way of the drums debuff? It seems too potent of a raid wide buff to just be chained 3-5 times.

Except bloodlust is not raid wide.

Deadstar · 07/26/08, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Beowolf

The talents aren't even finalized 'MW doesnt even proc off SS/WF crits yet'.

I picked this out because I know it's come up a couple times now, and I know Malan posted about it on the beta forums.

The tooltip says "when you critically hit with a melee weapon". Couldn't their intention be the same as with [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], in that "non-ability" attacks are the only ones that stack the buff?

Just a thought.