Ok adding some of the ones that I think are feasible or weren't repeats. (Some of the things you guys suggested are either full blown talents in themselves or just modifying things about a spell that we need them to fix/improve anyways)
There are two I would very much like in order for enhance Shamans to be viable in 2v2 and 3v3.
- Stormstrike debuff reducing healing effects on the target (but reduces the stormstrike charges by two).
- Maelstrom weapon procs on being critted as well as doing crits on others (which is does at the moment, but I am not so sure it is intended).
- Crowd control effects on the Shaman lasts 40% shorter while any spirit wolf is up.
I am not so sure what the guy who suggested blind on windfury was thinking, as the blind will break within a couple of milliseconds. If you stopped autoattack if it procced, it would take you a second to notice any way, so you'd lose as much as the guy it procced on.
I was sorta thinking that blind wasn't interrupted when damage is taken; I was thinking of stun.
Was just thinking that an effect that pauses the swing timer, interrupts casting and disorients the attacker might make sense for an effect that's essentially two attacks with the speed of a hurricane. Something akin to Mace Stun but obviously with a smaller timer and proc chance (as that's a 5 point talent deep in the arms tree)
What sort of metric can we use to determine if Lightning Shield with Static Shock is worth the loss of water shield mana?
I had a post earlier in the thread where I analyzed prospective mana cost of the new talents (faster strikes, maelstrom, static shock) and contrasted them with the mana costs of a current raiding rotation (8 shocks, 6 strikes per minute with totem twisting and with Water Shield up).
Turned out that even with all the mana sinks, and the trade of Water Shield for Lightning, we will actually need a little less mana. Twisting ain't cheap.
Ok adding some of the ones that I think are feasible or weren't repeats. (Some of the things you guys suggested are either full blown talents in themselves or just modifying things about a spell that we need them to fix/improve anyways)
I don't really disagree with the ones you chose, but I would like to point out that some of the released Glyphs for Druids are, in fact, just as strong as talents.
I'd go so far as to assume that Greater-type Glyphs are supposed to be around that relative level of strength(so far).
Oh yah not implying that yours were bad or anything, I think your post I glanced at and the grounding totem one immediately popped out as a neat idea so I grabbed that one.
Oh, I didn't mind that; the ideas were just a small brainstorm moment anyway.
Here's a small question that's been bugging me for a bit. I keep hearing that Frostbrand has been changed to be more viable in LK, is it just the debuff? Or did the proc rate/coefficient change?
How about:
Glyph of Eluding - You gain complete invulnerability for 3 seconds after entering (/exiting?) ghost wolf form.
Glyph of Gales - Your windfury weapon interal CD is decreased in line with haste.
How about one with a that makes your stormstrike turn your opponent around 180% degrees?
I assume mobs would just turn right back but could be fun in pvp.
Wouldnt be overpowered but could make your opponent have to be aware of his movements and with a lucky
timing could make them miss a los spell.
How about:
Glyph of Eluding - You gain complete invulnerability for 3 seconds after entering (/exiting?) ghost wolf form.
Glyph of Gales - Your windfury weapon interal CD is decreased in line with haste.
get real? these are the most overpowered things ive heard in a long time.
What sort of metric can we use to determine if Lightning Shield with Static Shock is worth the loss of water shield mana?
I think it's too encounter specific to decide, especially due to how hidden scripting events in a lot of raid encounters tend to trigger Water Shield, making it radically more effective than it would seem on paper. There is also no penalty for switching between the shields as needed, and your longevity is also heavily contingent on the amount of int on your gear (which is hard to predict right now), and your luck with shamanistic rage procs (which is impossible to predict).
I think it's too encounter specific to decide, especially due to how hidden scripting events in a lot of raid encounters tend to trigger Water Shield, making it radically more effective than it would seem on paper. There is also no penalty for switching between the shields as needed, and your longevity is also heavily contingent on the amount of int on your gear (which is hard to predict right now), and your luck with shamanistic rage procs (which is impossible to predict).
In a previous post, I illustrated that any shaman who can maintain a twist rotation with shocks should have more than enough mana to use Lightning Shield and all the new talents.
I personally make up for mana shortfalls with my twisting cycle by drinking potions. That's a loss of 100 mp5 that I have to make up somehow, but I don't think mana utilization is going to be a very big issue regardless -- I estimated the cost of refreshing LS at ~45 mp5, and the WotLK damage cycle was about 30 mp5 less costly than twisting is. Difference is 20 mp5, and I believe SR with higher hit chance, increased AP and slightly increased int will make up for the shortfall.
You're welcome to dispute these numbers, but not to ignore them, or to assume they are "too encounter specific." Yes, there will be encounters where we need to save SR, but you don't give up on theory because degenerate cases exist.
Luck is impossible to predict, but why would you? We have all the numbers, figure out what's likely and save your potion for bad luck.
get real? these are the most overpowered things ive heard in a long time.
So nerf them. They are OP (as I knew when posting) but they can still be good ideas with the right numbers, maybe 1.5s and a % of haste? Or do you think it's just not workable.
I personally make up for mana shortfalls with my twisting cycle by drinking potions. That's a loss of 100 mp5 that I have to make up somehow, but I don't think mana utilization is going to be a very big issue regardless -- I estimated the cost of refreshing LS at ~45 mp5, and the WotLK damage cycle was about 30 mp5 less costly than twisting is. Difference is 20 mp5, and I believe SR with higher hit chance, increased AP and slightly increased int will make up for the shortfall.
It's probably simple and fair to assume 100% Lightning Shield uptime for theorycrafting purposes, when modelling a single-target DPS situation. My point was that Water Shield uptime, if we were to assume any, would be impossible to predict at this point.
This may not be sustainable, since your math assumed mana potions every 2 minutes (which is now impossible), but again it's just not possible to say right now as we don't have the gear values for level 80 epics. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, this discussion is entirely moot.
1. Stormstrike now deals nature damage instead of physical, but no longer applies a debuff. (ignores armor and benefits from Warlock/Moonkin debuffs, but you, moonkins and elemental shaman lose the charges)
2. Increases the duration of Shamanistic Rage by 10 seconds.
3. Reduces the cooldown of heroism/bloodlust by 5 minutes, but reduces the duration by 15 seconds (net gain of 10 seconds, allows more consistent usage)
4. Gives a 30% (more? less?) chance to resist stun effects while in ghost wolf form.
5. Increase the damage of your Windfury Weapon critical strikes by 10%.
6. Increases the damage dealt by your off hand weapon by 10% (more? less?).
7. Your water totems also provide 5 expertise to you and nearby raid members. (gives warriors/rogues/ferals some benefit from our water totem)
8. Increases the duration of your totems by 100%.
9. Gives your totems a chance to stun their attacker when detroyed.
10. Whenever one of your Lightning Shield, Water Shield, or Earth Shield charges are expended, they also affect an additional nearby target (damage to a hostile for lightning shield, mana or health return to a friendly for water/earth shield)
11. Decreases the mana cost of all spells by 10% while Lightning Shield is active. (reduce the need for water shield so we can use static shock more reliably).
12. Your Unleashed rage effect also increases the run speed of those effected by it by 15%.
I'll stop for now before I nerdgasm.
Last edited by Skreekins : 08/01/08 at 7:30 PM.
Reason: one more idea
Glyph of Chained Soul: Removes the Anhk reagent cost of Reincarnation
Glyph of Water Spirits: Removes the reagent cost of Water walking (and/or) Water breathing
Glyph of Swift Elements: Reduces the cooldown of summoned elementals by 10 minutes.
Glyph of the Second Storm: Your Stormstrike spell deals additional nature damage when used. (Damage equal to a 3rd hit from a main-hand weapon instead of the current 2).
Glyph of Lightning defense: When active, your lightning shield has a chance to stun targets that strike you for 2 seconds.
Glyph of Totemic Consequences - Imbues all totems with an elemental effect which procs when that totem is destroyed by a hostile:
Water: Chance to return X mana
Earth: Chance to stun
Air: Chance to slow for x seconds
Fire: Procs a small DoT
Each of these as a separate glyph would be acceptable, too!
I had a post earlier in the thread where I analyzed prospective mana cost of the new talents (faster strikes, maelstrom, static shock) and contrasted them with the mana costs of a current raiding rotation (8 shocks, 6 strikes per minute with totem twisting and with Water Shield up).
Turned out that even with all the mana sinks, and the trade of Water Shield for Lightning, we will actually need a little less mana. Twisting ain't cheap.
I would like to do the math for lvl 80 spells again.
We will be specced inte the Ele tree, therefore 12 shocks. SF always up.
Asuming 6ES, 6FS per minute: (6x 468)+ (6x446)= 5484mana/min => 457 mp5
Asuming 7.5x SS (225 mana): 1688 mp60, 140 mp5, I assume base mana will rise by 30% so will the spell cost: 182mp5
Asuming 7.5x LaB: 655x 7,5= 4912,5 => 409,375 mp5
Total mana consumption in 2 Minutes: 12590,9 mana
Asuming we have 10 Shamanistic Rage procs, we need 8393 AP to regain our mana completely.
I think it's unlikely we will reach these heights, therefore we are severly mana starved and all mana gained from water shield will help us more than that tiny bit of dmg by static shock.
It's been a long time since I spent a lot of time in 5-mans, but now that I reflect back on them, and what our experience is likely to be in WotLK, I'm feeling very underwhelmed by Hex.
Why is it a level-80 spell? If they're going to add it, why not at level 20 like polymorph? (I was going to say 70, but I'd just as soon extend the benefit to new leveling toons, for obvious reasons.) Shams often have trouble finding groups, *especially* enh shams, because of our lack of CC. The dev argument that instances can be done without CC (or as much CC) are absolutely specious- whether it's possible is irrelevant. What matters is what people actually do, and all too often what they do is exclude shamans for lack of CC.
Looking at the Hex mechanic now, the description on WowDB seems much improved to the first one I read (which seemed to say that casting was possible while hexed, as well as combat when not moving). I'd still prefer a chainable CC. Rogues don't have one, but they have (theoretically) the highest DPS in the game. Locks and hunters, two famously high-dps classes, *do* have chainable CCs though, as well as mages who are supposedly getting some well-deserved dps love. What the heck is so imbalanced about giving shams a chainable CC? I'd even pay a talent point for it (while levelling, not in end-game raids). Or, hm, a glyph... though I really don't see why I should have to.
As for the PvP argument... I'm very sick of seeing PvE screwed because of PvP considerations (SR anyone?). Put DR on it, or even a short hex immunity debuff on PCs who've been hexed already.
(And also, please don't waste time explaining that this thread is about raiding only and you're not interested in leveling. Start a new thread with a different title if that's what you want.)
Asuming we have 10 Shamanistic Rage procs, we need 8393 AP to regain our mana completely.
I think it's unlikely we will reach these heights, therefore we are severly mana starved and all mana gained from water shield will help us more than that tiny bit of dmg by static shock.
That's a pretty dumb assumption to make. First, I typically get more than 10 SR procs now. You are timing SR with haste pots, drums, etc, right? In WotLK I'll have a shorter SS cooldown and 20% passive haste from WF. Second, do you never drop mana spring totem? And third, you're totally ignoring outside mana regen. JoW alone is massive.
08/01/08, 3:16 PM
