Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 37

Toots Hepcat · 08/04/08, 1:45 PM

Every totem that gets killed wastes somebody's swing timer or GCD, and our totem GCD is only 1s.

Meanwhile, we can strip buffs off players at a rate of two per GCD. I think we're still doing pretty well.

I really don't think totems with more health is the issue -- you'd need a very large amount of health for them not to be 1 shot anyway. Maybe a bigger miss chance (they are kind of small)? Anyhow, just drop them around the corner and have your team leash to them. Use them as bait to separate rogues and hunters from the pack.

Gurth999 · 08/04/08, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Every totem that gets killed wastes somebody's swing timer or GCD, and our totem GCD is only 1s.

Or pet.

Meanwhile, we can strip buffs off players at a rate of two per GCD. I think we're still doing pretty well.

You don't get to choose with purge, and its much more likely a buff will survive a purge than a totem survive being targeted (talents that reduce chance to purge). And totems don't benefit from resistances.

I really don't think totems with more health is the issue -- you'd need a very large amount of health for them not to be 1 shot anyway. Maybe a bigger miss chance (they are kind of small)? Anyhow, just drop them around the corner and have your team leash to them. Use them as bait to separate rogues and hunters from the pack.

You can only drop them where you stand. And health is somewhat of an issue, because you don't even need to use significant mana to kill them. Any Rank1 instant will suffice. I certainly don't think they should be super hard to kill, but right now they are just a bit too easily dispatched by anyone with a good macro and especially pet classes.

I'd love to see a talent for totems to have a 30% chance to survive a hit. Or at least a few hundred hit points, so it costs them near what it costs me for purge to kill them with an instant, but I would take macro's not working to target them over either of those options.

Toots Hepcat · 08/04/08, 3:11 PM

Again -- every second a pet is on totem duty it isn't mangling your casters. If a hunter is playing like that be thankful; he's so jammed up on the keyboard he'll be dead by the time the pet finishes eating the second earthbind.

I've never lost a match because my totems were dying. It's not something I've heard the best PvP shamans complain about. I wouldn't turn down a totem buff, but honestly I doubt we'll see it as it's already a fairly balanced mechanic, as it does take resources to eliminate them, and doesn't take much to resurrect them

Paladia · 08/04/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Every totem that gets killed wastes somebody's swing timer or GCD, and our totem GCD is only 1s.

That would only make sense if no totem had a cooldown and every player who targets a totem would otherwise be busy doing something else as well as losing mana in the process.

Otherwise, it is still a loss for the Shaman.

Gurth999 · 08/04/08, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Again -- every second a pet is on totem duty it isn't mangling your casters. If a hunter is playing like that be thankful; he's so jammed up on the keyboard he'll be dead by the time the pet finishes eating the second earthbind.

I've never lost a match because my totems were dying. It's not something I've heard the best PvP shamans complain about. I wouldn't turn down a totem buff, but honestly I doubt we'll see it as it's already a fairly balanced mechanic, as it does take resources to eliminate them, and doesn't take much to resurrect them

Please don't try to make it sound like its some huge chore to hit a pet a macro to kill totems.

This comment just seems naive. It would be akin to another class saying they never lost a match because their buff was purged or their pet killed or whatever. There's not much complaining about totems dying because that is the way it has always been, but it was always possible to purge ice armor and fel armor in the past as well.

It might not cost a lot to resurrect them, but you can't just replace earthbind the instant it dies, or grounding totem and the really annoying thing is having tremor die the instant before fear hits you, you can replace it if you're quick, but you'll still be feared for 3 seconds before it ticks and the replacement will likely die before that ever happens.

It wouldn't be hard at all to buff totems without making the change unbalancing. I don't think anyone expects that totems should take a concerted effort to destroy, merely that they not automatically die with a casual tap of a macro.

drats · 08/04/08, 4:15 PM

I don't know if they're still considering shaman talents, but maybe a talent/glyph that gives you and/or your totems the stoneclaw stun would be nice.

Malakitoo · 08/04/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

I've never lost a match because my totems were dying. It's not something I've heard the best PvP shamans complain about. I wouldn't turn down a totem buff, but honestly I doubt we'll see it as it's already a fairly balanced mechanic, as it does take resources to eliminate them, and doesn't take much to resurrect them

Most of the "best PvP shamans" probably wouldn't be complaining about it, because it's always been a drawback of the totem system and can be accounted for by the skill of the players involved.

I definitely have lost matches by going oom after a pet killed my mana tide out of los and 30 yards away from the other team. It's not easily replaceable. Let's not mention the times where a priest (or felhunter) has killed my tremor (I drop a new one as soon as he kills it), I get feared, and he kills the tremor before it pulses.

The "yeah but it takes their gcds too" argument is fair and it's why you don't hear many people really complaining about situations where the priest feared you and r1 SW

the tremor, or if a warrior is taking the time to hamstring every WF you drop. When it comes to pets, though, it's a simple macro that doesn't cost any real time or require effort. For that matter, it's not very hard for a rogue to tab and kill every totem you drop while you're stunned.

What the current (beta) situation amounts to is that it makes our buff totems pretty worthless in small-scale settings. Windfury is no longer a persistent buff, and rank 1 cost has been increased disproportionately to mana pool size, so its usefulness in arena drops to the level of SoE and WoA (read: never used).

I'm fine with WF/SoE/FT/WoA being relatively high mana-cost vulnerable buffs, it's the way these things have always been. WF was different and was arguably the shaman's claim to PvP fame for the last 4 years of WoW, but if the randomness was too much to balance, so be it.

However, I would like to see a situation where shamans were balanced around having these buffs out and active while making them less trivial to counter. If nothing else, it would retain the idea that the power of the shaman in pvp comes from the buffs he brings rather than his straight dpsing/healing power. If that doesn't happen, it won't be the end of the world. Most of our PvP utility totems (grounding, cleansing, tremor, earthbind) are low cost and fairly replaceable.

Sydane · 08/04/08, 4:39 PM

A talent (or inscription) that made it so whenever you have stoneclaw down, the stun chance carries over to your other totems would make for an interesting tactic and force people to decide if they really wanted to kill the totems or not (or if they wanted to kill the worthless stoneclaw first or try the others and risk the stun). It would have some solo pve value as well. I don't think you can add enough health to totems to make a difference, but a stun or spell lockout would definitely have an effect.

Psykhe · 08/04/08, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Again -- every second a pet is on totem duty it isn't mangling your casters.

The problem is that there isn't anything like "totem duty" for a pet. Or, better, it is not really stopping it from "mangling your casters". A good totem killing macro tells a pet to kill the most dangerous totems and if none are present continoue attacking its assigned real target.

Efficiently this means that a pet will kill totems as fast you you drop them - considering the attack speed of anti-caster pets is close to 1 second, the same as the totem general cooldown. And that with utterly minimal effort from the hunter. He will not be distracted by it since he just has to spam a button which does *not* introduce a general cooldown for him nor should distract him from the things he himself has to do.

Hell, with a keyboard like the g 15 he won't even have to spam the macro shortcut, the keyboard will do it for him if setup correctly, completely automated.

If killing totems would require some actual effort so a hunter trying to keep totems down continuously would be "so jammed up on the keyboard he'll be dead by the time the pet finishes eating the second earthbind" it would be totally fine, really, but that is precisely what isn't the case.

testthewest · 08/04/08, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

SR seems to be dramatically different on the Beta right now. I'm able to pull a single mob (around 9k health) and fill my mana bar from empty to 6k before the mob dies. On live, I have trouble fully raid buffed against an elite mob sometimes getting a full mana bar back. I think they've boosted the PPM effect.

Well, considering that raidbuffed a proc brings over 1K mana, and my pool is under 7K, I have no complains about the current SR.

Since I'm very concernd about our rising mana drains, it would be really cool if you could find out more details about this new SR. Is it 100% procc? Is it still a ppm?

If the new SR becomes insanly better than the old (right now, all I can see from the talent calculators is a halving in effect), this might make bigger manapools somewhat useful. (omg, never thought I might be stacking Int with my melee Shaman)

Malan · 08/04/08, 6:28 PM

You're telling me you have 3k sustained AP to be able to get 1k procs every time? My max was 972 yesterday in Sunwell, with an average of 856. I'm by no means full best in slot, but neither is the vast majority of the WoW Shaman population. The ability shouldn't be balanced solely around the raiding community that have the absolute best gear available.

Anedris · 08/04/08, 6:41 PM

I've always thought that stoneclaw should mimic another totem - show up to hostile players as a "tremor totem" or "grounding totem" or "mana tide" or whatever. Not sure how you'd set which one it appeared as (make it random? Make a bunch of different versions of stoneclaw?) but it would give the totem some use in PvP (and if you also gave the stoneclaw totem a considerable amount of health it would reward players quick enough to notice that the "tremor" totem they are attacking has more than 5 hp and they should leave it alone).

Toots Hepcat · 08/04/08, 6:44 PM

Malan: I have over 2600 AP when raid buffed (1590 + 220 (BoM) + 37.2 (BoK) + 44 (RC) + 215 (SoE) + 120 (RA) + 382 (Bshout)). With UR, it's nearly 2900. I'm guessing with your gear, you have way over 3000 sustained AP.

I have SR keyed to Bloodlust Brooch, so for the duration of the effect I have 3100+. This doesn't count the up to 594 AP I get from various procs.

Point is that AP at any given point in the middle of the raid is HUGE, and based off the fact that I get a near-full mana bar plugging SR while farming (with only 1700 or so AP), I bet I could fill a mana bar 50%-100% larger than what I have now. Should be no issue in the x-pac.

But anyway -- what we need, that we don't have to my knowledge, is an honest-to-god proc rate for SR, in BC and WotLK. Nice long combatlog should do nicely.

Staticus · 08/04/08, 6:54 PM

They probably nerfed SR because our AP is going through the roof with the agi/int changes...but it won't double (not counting the gear-up from 70 to 80) so by nerfing it to half mana gain will still be a nerf.

Malan · 08/04/08, 7:00 PM

I don't think they've nurfed it at all is what I'm saying. I can get a full mana bar back from a single mob in beta right now, which I definitely have trouble doing on Live where its total reliance on the RNG. On beta I can count on refilling my mana bar every time, with no buffs out (not even SoE).

Buanna · 08/04/08, 7:11 PM

How much higher is your attack power on beta?

Malan · 08/04/08, 7:21 PM

I think I gained around 150-200 AP from the Agility and strength changes, lost 4-5% crit in the change though. My lvl 73 has 2109 unbuffed.

Here ya go, just logged a quick SR test in Dragonblight. Drained my mana down to around 100ish, mob had 9.9k heath. No buffs no totems, used only AutoAttack, Windfury and SS. Mob died and I was at full mana.

Daer · 08/04/08, 9:08 PM

I don't have a combat log, but there were many times in the beta where I wasn't able to fully replenish my mana bar. I observed the "same" proc chance as in live.

I'll try to have some combat logs tomorrow.

ziff · 08/05/08, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by Anedris

I've always thought that stoneclaw should mimic another totem - show up to hostile players as a "tremor totem" or "grounding totem" or "mana tide" or whatever.

Wow, this is a great idea for an inscription. An inscription that would make all totems dropped by a player show up randomly to opposing players, or all the totems look like stoneclaw totems for a set amount of time. You instantly give stoneclaw a reason to exist in pvp, plus make an interesting strategic desicion for opposing players. You might need to make totems like searing totem outside this effect, but it would be an interesting effect. Plus it would give us a wacky CC effect in pvp.

Gehenna · 08/05/08, 2:08 AM

Originally Posted by Staticus

They probably nerfed SR because our AP is going through the roof with the agi/int changes...but it won't double (not counting the gear-up from 70 to 80) so by nerfing it to half mana gain will still be a nerf.

Statements like this are so ignorant, I don't even know how to address them. Look at your stats on live and think about what your saying.

Sure, your going to get a great amount of attack power from you base int, but your not getting as much as you think from gear, and the conversion from str > agi is not going to net us an abnormal amount of AP. Rather, we will probably just be in line with the other classes.

I'm glad to hear SR is working more smoothly on beta though, I can't stand when it fucks up in SWP on encounters like M'uru and Brutalis where water shield does virtually nothing.

Juros · 08/05/08, 2:47 AM

Blizzard has apparently finally heard the cries of shaman everywhere.

WoW Forums -> Shaman Totems and PVP

Originally Posted by Koraa

In a future build your Stoneclaw Totem will "protect" your other totems, virtually increasing their HP by a value. We haven't decided how much it will give your totems, but it should be enough to protect them from being one shotted.

Totems are intended to be as fragile as they are, it's what balances out their power. If we gave Totems base increased survivability, we would have to give them increased cooldowns, mana costs etc.

It will be interesting to see how much protection Stoneclaw will give and whether it will be a percentage of the shaman's total health or a set value.

Gurth999 · 08/05/08, 3:05 AM

I really don't understand how that mechanic is going to work. If stoneclaw has to be down, two of our pvp totems (earthbind and tremor) can't be there to be protected. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what it does.

spanko · 08/05/08, 3:20 AM

That sounds utterly useless for PvP, no tremor or earthbind would basically mean that the only time stoneclaw is used it when someone is going to drop mana tide, and at that point mana tide just becomes a huge signal for the enemy team to start fearing people knowing theres no tremor down.

Rouncer · 08/05/08, 3:26 AM

It would work better if when Stoneclaw was down all your other totems had the chance to stun when attacked.

Hothgor · 08/05/08, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

You're telling me you have 3k sustained AP to be able to get 1k procs every time? My max was 972 yesterday in Sunwell, with an average of 856. I'm by no means full best in slot, but neither is the vast majority of the WoW Shaman population. The ability shouldn't be balanced solely around the raiding community that have the absolute best gear available.

I dunno, Malan. I routinely get 3.2-3.4k ap on boss fights like KJ. 1k+ mana returns on hits are the norm for me in the very late end game content. Solo leveling WotLK I'm still seeing 800-900 mana returns. By no means do I have 'best available gear' for every slot yet either.