You're telling me you have 3k sustained AP to be able to get 1k procs every time? My max was 972 yesterday in Sunwell, with an average of 856. I'm by no means full best in slot, but neither is the vast majority of the WoW Shaman population. The ability shouldn't be balanced solely around the raiding community that have the absolute best gear available.
Well, basicly yes. Ich have shortly below 1800 AP unbuffed. Trinket and racial boost that by over 600 (B.Call 360AP, Blood Fury 282 AP). Then there are Warriorshout, Kings, Might,SoE which bring about 1K. On top there is UR, so my SR normally has an AP of over 3K for it's duration. Furthermore, if a WF-attack proccs the SR, you also have the increased WF-AP added in.
I would say it isn't any problem to have 3K AP for 15 sec in the current endgame. With other procs like the Aldor Neck from SSO, I had peaks over 4300 AP.
About your combat log:
I counted 15 swing while the shamanistic Rage aura was applied. I counted 8 proccs. If SR is 15% AP in the current Beta build, and your AP for that fight was round about 2500, one proc sould give you 375 mana. 8 procs would be 3000 mana. That's hardly a full mana bar. Something must be wrong with the tooltip of the SR ability.
Some translations (french client, sorry):
"Rage du chaman" is "Shamanistic Rage",
"Raté" is "Miss",
"Esquive" is "Dodge"
"Parade" is "Parry"
"Attaque Furie-des-vents" is "Windfury attack"
"Arme du Maelström" is "Maelström weapon"
"Rage libérée" is "Unleashed Rage"
In a few words : using only WF, SS and auto-attack, I generally am able to generate 5500 mana. Usually I have lightning shield up which means that mob is killed faster, but I use AP trinket which should compensate. I remember at least two times from level 70 to 72 where I was not able to generate more than 3000 mana.
On a totally different topic, I find that Maelstrom weapons effect doesn't last long. With my gimped crit rating, I find the talent useless for levelling.
Some translations (french client, sorry):
"Rage du chaman" is "Shamanistic Rage",
"Raté" is "Miss",
"Esquive" is "Dodge"
"Parade" is "Parry"
"Attaque Furie-des-vents" is "Windfury attack"
"Arme du Maelström" is "Maelström weapon"
"Rage libérée" is "Unleashed Rage"
In a few words : using only WF, SS and auto-attack, I generally am able to generate 5500 mana. Usually I have lightning shield up which means that mob is killed faster, but I use AP trinket which should compensate. I remember at least two times from level 70 to 72 where I was not able to generate more than 3000 mana.
On a totally different topic, I find that Maelstrom weapons effect doesn't last long. With my gimped crit rating, I find the talent useless for levelling.
Very helpful (to prevent clocking up the combat log) would be only autoattack, without windfury weapon imbue. Make a note how much AP you have, and how much mana you gain, as well as how many procs you got.
I've been following this thread since it was started and I remember people not being able to theorycraft Lightning Shield potential dps because it wasn't known if there was an internal CD or not (was even bugged in a build). Now I came across a blue post in the DK beta forum:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Bone Armor has always had an internal cooldown of 2 sec. We just changed it to 3.5 sec, same as a shaman.
I counted 15 swing while the shamanistic Rage aura was applied. I counted 8 proccs. If SR is 15% AP in the current Beta build, and your AP for that fight was round about 2500, one proc sould give you 375 mana. 8 procs would be 3000 mana. That's hardly a full mana bar. Something must be wrong with the tooltip of the SR ability.
Negative, its still 30% on the Beta. MMO Champ has posted all sorts of stuff that never made it into the beta builds so I have no idea where they get their info from.
I dunno, Malan. I routinely get 3.2-3.4k ap on boss fights like KJ. 1k+ mana returns on hits are the norm for me in the very late end game content. Solo leveling WotLK I'm still seeing 800-900 mana returns. By no means do I have 'best available gear' for every slot yet either.
I have raid-buffed 2.6k AP with a mix of Sunwell/Badge loot. With BS/procs, you can definitely get 1k+ mana returns per proc of SR. But the problem is the streakiness. With our lower focus on hit, it's quite possible to get denied full mana return on SR. I actually use Mana Pots on Muru if I hit an especially bad streak when I activate SR.
I've been following the beta thread on the change to stoneclaw totem and agree it doesn't really help at all.
Providing random names to the totems will definitely help. I would like to know what folks think about adding a low chance, 15 percent or so, for a totem to stun its attacker for 3 seconds?
For myself I think it adds a bit of flavor to the totem mechanic.
The best solution for totems is to make them all have the same name to your opponents, ie "Mman's Totem". This still means your totems are easy to kill, but somebody cannot spam a macro to kill one specific totem over and over again. They can still have a macro to kill a totem, but it will pick one of your four at random (or simply the nearest one). This will make totem killing slightly more risky, plus put an emphasis on their placement. But, an astute player could still see "this red totem is a fire totem" and kill that one if he wants to. It just simply takes a little more concentration than current.
Personally, I have never minded so much that totems have low HP. They should be fairly easy to one shot (maybe 2 if wanding). It sort of balances out with purging (I can take out your buffs, but you can easily kill mine). However, making your totems all have the same name actually kind of closer parallels purge than what currently happens.
They should be fairly easy to one shot (maybe 2 if wanding). It sort of balances out with purging (I can take out your buffs, but you can easily kill mine). However, making your totems all have the same name actually kind of closer parallels purge than what currently happens.
Yup, that would solve one of my 2 problems with totem killing. Purge picks random buffs, while they know exactly which of our buffs they're removing by which totem they kill, and, unlike buffs, some totems have a cd, so we can't reapply. The other is that most classes have some sort of purge resistance, I would love to see the look on a priest who fears me, turns to wand my tremor totem and sees "resisted" pop up on their screen.
I have raid-buffed 2.6k AP with a mix of Sunwell/Badge loot. With BS/procs, you can definitely get 1k+ mana returns per proc of SR. But the problem is the streakiness. With our lower focus on hit, it's quite possible to get denied full mana return on SR. I actually use Mana Pots on Muru if I hit an especially bad streak when I activate SR.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had that problem on M'uru, especially after they nerfed him.
Having read that blue post, I think that Blizzard's point is that totems are unusally powerful for how mana cheap they are and one the balancing factors for this luxury is that they are very easy to destroy. Obfuscating the name or intent of the totems removes this balancing factor, and they'd either need to up the cost or drop the utility.
Not all teams relentlessly try to bring down totems anyway. Against those who do, being able to drop a "protector totem" and discourage this behavior would be a useful tactic.
Making this totem an earth totem means making a difficult trade off, but again -- it's this concession that doesn't imbalance the system. Chose hard to hill air, fire and water totems, or tremor. A hard-to-kill tremor totem sort of removes a lot of the threat from fear effects, and that isn't balanced. You can all see that.
An unfair advantage in your class' favor is still unfair, and is as likely to hurt your team as help it.
Having read that blue post, I think that Blizzard's point is that totems are unusally powerful for how mana cheap they are and one the balancing factors for this luxury is that they are very easy to destroy. Obfuscating the name or intent of the totems removes this balancing factor, and they'd either need to up the cost or drop the utility.
Not all teams relentlessly try to bring down totems anyway. Against those who do, being able to drop a "protector totem" and discourage this behavior would be a useful tactic.
Making this totem an earth totem means making a difficult trade off, but again -- it's this concession that doesn't imbalance the system. Chose hard to hill air, fire and water totems, or tremor. A hard-to-kill tremor totem sort of removes a lot of the threat from fear effects, and that isn't balanced. You can all see that.
An unfair advantage in your class' favor is still unfair, and is as likely to hurt your team as help it.
I'm not buying that argument. Shaman are clearly weak in arena right now (especially non resto), one of the reasons for that is that our buffing system is almost completely ineffective vs opponents with a good macro. If they want to make shaman more competitive in arena. The best way to fix that is through totem survival because that really won't wash over into PVE. As I said before I don't expect that totems should be hard to kill only that it take proper attention and effort. Do away with rank 1 spells killing them and/or the auto target macro's that kill them before they even fully spawn and you'll see an improvement in shaman performance in arena. There's no evidence this would be overpowered.
<edit> The protector totem doesn't work if it means we can't have the totem we need to protect on the ground with it.
I am going to veer from a lot of the Totem talk that's been going on, but while reviewing a lot of the WOTLK discussions here and on the Beta Forums, I thought of something else that would be a new Talent that could help us out in PvP. I figured this would be a good spot to post it since I can't post to the Beta Forums.
My thought is to have a 1 Point Talent that gives you a 10% chance to stun on Stormstrike while having a shield equipped next to the Tier 7 Stormstrike Talent. Call it Stormstrike Slam if you will. (If its needed to balance out Talent point distribution, they could make Toughness a 4 point scaling at 25/50/75/100%.)
I know that I start off using a shield on all Arena matches to minimize damage from potential stealth opponents and losing that offhand when hitting with Stormstrikes is very noticeable. It would provide us with at least a small benefit when using a shield and still require us to spec into it.
Anyways... Just food for thought and thanks for all the info and that all you at EJ do for the Shaman community.
Then fix the macro problems, don't slap a bandaid on the rest of the system.
I'd love to see what evidence you're basing this on.
Well what more evidence do you need?
They don't win money torneys, they are underrepresented in the Top 100 as defined by Blizzard themselfes in 2 brackets.
Lastly, a subjectiv note: On my server I see dozends of Warriors, Rogues and Druids with S3 shoulders, but shamans are very rare.
Hey, I get asked how to play and what teams might be successful, only because I have S3 weapons. This says all.
I'd love to see what evidence you're basing this on.
You can't be this obtuse. How about we just turn this around...prove they aren't weak. The vast majority of the shaman with PVP experience in TBC believe Shaman are below average in strength. Prove it wrong.
I'd love to see what evidence you're basing this on.
The relative lack of shaman on highly ranked arena teams. Even Kalgan has commented on wanting to make enhance shaman stronger in 2v2 and 3v3 (I believe that comment has been quoted in this thread). There's certainly no evidence that has happened yet. While they did take some steps forward in that regard, the most recent patch was a step back with the changes to mage and warlock armors.
While there has been some positive changes for enhance in arena in WotLK (such as spectral transformation), I don't know that they will stay ahead of other classes buffs and with the nerf to WF (reduction in burst damage, lack of a persistent buff).
Look, if even ONE shaman has made it to the top 100, then the class is viable.
We have a shaman at #8 in the 2v2, about 5 in the top 10 at 3v3 including the top 2 slots, and 2 in the top 10 of 5v5. Shamans have 2300 ratings and are active in every bracket down to sweet FA.
There isn't a separate set of buttons for those guys. They don't have different totem mechanics or a shield stun or any of that. They're just very good at their class. If you are not doing as well as them, then you are pushing the wrong buttons at the wrong time in the wrong order with the wrong gear and the wrong spec in the wrong comp. You have to be. There is no other explanation for why some players make it, and some don't.
There's also a bandwagon factor. If the word of the day is that warlocks rule PvP, then people who want to rule PvP roll warlock. At no point in BC has anybody said, "Wow, shamans, OP at PvP" and as a result our class is played by a large pool of converts from PvE. The transition is not seamless and I guarantee if you took one of the rogues or druids at the top of the PvP charts, and forced them to play shaman, they would play better than any of us.
The toughest totems in the world won't fix these variables. Only experience can.
Also: note that in none of the best 2v2s do you have pet classes chewing totems.
Look, if even ONE shaman has made it to the top 100, then the class is viable.
I'm sorry but that's just crap. There's enough competition that representation should be relatively equal with proper balance. Just because someone manages to rank in his battlegroup doesn't instantly imply that the class is balanced. Currently paladins, shaman and hunters are weak in the arena and warriors, rogues and druids are strong, there has not been a lot of fluctuation in this regard. The fact that Kalgan commented on it as a problem is good enough for me.
You can't be this obtuse. How about we just turn this around...prove they aren't weak. The vast majority of the shaman with PVP experience in TBC believe Shaman are below average in strength. Prove it wrong.
Oh come on Juice, I know you're reading the same threads in the BB with Yes talking about arena, you can't be serious.
The vast majority of Shaman in TBC think its cool to use Rockbiter, are you sure want to use them as a source?
Look, if even ONE shaman has made it to the top 100, then the class is viable.
Viable, ok... but that doesn't mean shaman's on par with the other classes for arenas, which was the original point, and arguing otherwise (for enhancement, at least... my resto/ele experience is basically nil) strikes me as deliberately obtuse. Can anyone here say with a straight face that they consider enhancement to be as desirable as a warrior or rogue for arenas? There's still some enhancement shaman with enough skill to overcome that and be near the top of the rankings, but it requires a great deal more skill to be a top-ranked enhancement shaman than many other classes/specs.
Anyways, to sort of steer this post back towards WotLK - spectral transformation and spirit wolves being snare/root/stun immune and having a stun of their own both indicate that Blizz is trying to add some PvP tools to the spec. Until people can start testing arenas and BGs at max level, I don't think anyone (including Blizzard) necessarily has a good feel for how PvP balance is going to play out. But unless it looks like we're getting completely hosed at 80, I wouldn't expect Blizz to tweak basic shaman mechanics like totem health.
Viable, ok... but that doesn't mean shaman's on par with the other classes for arenas, which was the original point, and arguing otherwise (for enhancement, at least... my resto/ele experience is basically nil) strikes me as deliberately obtuse. Can anyone here say with a straight face that they consider enhancement to be as desirable as a warrior or rogue for arenas? There's still some enhancement shaman with enough skill to overcome that and be near the top of the rankings, but it requires a great deal more skill to be a top-ranked enhancement shaman than many other classes/specs.
I don't understand how this is out of line with other classes. If you want to PvP as a specific spec of any class, you may just have to deal with being not as good as if you were specced differently. The fact that enhancement isn't as good in arenas isn't any different than shadow and holy being outshone by discipline for priests, or prot/fury warriors and combat rogues being laughable in arena. Enhancement isn't our class, it's one possible spec of our class, and because that one spec may not be viable doesn't mean the class isn't viable.
I don't understand how this is out of line with other classes. If you want to PvP as a specific spec of any class, you may just have to deal with being not as good as if you were specced differently. The fact that enhancement isn't as good in arenas isn't any different than shadow and holy being outshone by discipline for priests, or prot/fury warriors and combat rogues being laughable in arena. Enhancement isn't our class, it's one possible spec of our class, and because that one spec may not be viable doesn't mean the class isn't viable.
Which shaman spec right now is strong or even average in 2v2 and 3v3? And certainly I don't think every class with a heal spell (or other classes) should have to spec maximum survivability to be viable in arena and I'd like to think blizzard will be addressing that for other classes as well.
Anyway this is all getting pretty far afield of enhance mechanics discussion, the original starting point being making adjustments to totems in pvp. Blizzard is looking at making changes in this regard, I see no problem in suggesting the changes they make be good.
08/05/08, 5:41 AM
