Stopokingme

This seems really doubtful, unless they put a, for want of a better name, 'Bloodlust Sickness' on it.

 

Malan

Bloodlust is definitely not affecting everyone in a raid.

Big shocker here, but WowWiki is not really a reliable source of information.

Windfury, Unleashed Rage,Wrath of Air, Totem of Wrath and Flametongue. That's it. Everything else is party only right now.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Jheherrin

Shock rotations will be very dependent on how fast Maelstrom weapon stacks and how easy or viable it is to weave both shocks into a rotation that will now include an instant Lava Burst or ChainLightning or LightningBolt.

Shock rotations will also be dependent on whether you have talented Stormstrike and talented shocks, as both change the the possible shock rotations and alter the dps from shock rotations. The change in focus from Resto subspec to Elem subspec makes talented shocks a viable choice now.

If you use your MW to cast Lava Burst, then you are commiting yourself to having Flame Shock dot up on the target for the majority of the time in order to guarantee a crit from Lava Burst. OK, I know we do this now anyway, but we all slip sometimes, and it will make a lot of difference to Lava Burst if your Flame Shock dot is not up.

So far the best rotation I have come up with is Lava Burst and SS on an 8 second rotation, and shocks weaved into it with Earth Shock-5seconds-Flame shock-6seconds-Flame shock-5seconds on a 16 second cycle.
However, this cycle is entirely dependent on MW stacking to 5 every 8 seconds to allow an instant Lava Burst, and we do not know if it will do that reliably yet.

The two alternatives I compared it with were an 8 second rotation with just SS, LB and FS, and a 10 second rotation with SS, LB, (ES and FS alternating).

 

Pitbuller

Lightning bolt do more damage than Chain lightning to single target after 1057 spell power and cost less mana.
(lb avarage - cl avarage) / (lb coef - cl coef)
(1042-765) / [(2.5/3.5) - (2/3.5)] = 1057
This is easily avaible in wotlk raid enviroment aka 3523ap.
But you want use LvB to fuel elemental devastion every 10s.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Jheherrin

I'll complicate it a bit more.

You want to use Flame shock and a MW 5-stack to guarantee an instant Lava Blast Crit which will fuel Elemental Devastation.

 

Mejiro

I'm still touching in the dark on some things for WoTLK (probably because I'm not having the best source of information atm).

But thanks for the input, I'll try to read up more on these things

 

Hothgor

Talented shocks were always a viable choice. It was just harder to run with that spec very late in SWP due to the nature of the encounters.

Right now, I'm doubting that many people will bother to put points into Reverberation. The way the timers line up with SS and LvB makes it seem like Blizzard is planning for us to take Earth Shock out of the DPS rotation entirely. Besides, without reverberation you can actually justify putting points into Dual Wield Spec and elemental shields :P

 

Zackbumm

I´m playing beta since 2 weeks now (close to 77) and to be honest: I dont use earthshock in my rotation anymore. i still shock enemy spells but that's about it. I've done dps tests with different talent builds and rotations in dire maul (attacking immortal spirit ogers at the end for 20 minutes) and flameshock/lavaburst was the clear winner even if had just 3 or 4 mw stacks so I had to cast LvB. with level 75 and ZA/T5 gear i came up with 1800 dps just with totems and windfury weapon on both hands (no other buffs applied), lavaburst every 8 seconds and flameshock/ss to fill the gaps which is a really awesome.

Since then I cast Lavaburst every 8 seconds regardless if I have 5 mw stacks or not. a critical lvb hit does 3,3k dmg with my gear at lvl 75 and with 9% melee crit for 10 seconds I usually get 3-5 mw stacks. I can do more testing the next days and share all the results with you and I think most of the data will be very interesting, but I probably need help from shaman veterans like malan or toots because i dont wanna spend 3 hours doing worthless benchmarks at the end.

 

Toots Hepcat

Why? Why interrupt your main dps abilities (auto-attack and windfury) for several seconds in trade for a couple thousand damage?

Even if instant cast MW doesn't reset the swing timer, I would think channeled MW would. Easy enough to test, please do so, but even still at 3 stacks you've got DPS-off for nearly a whole second.

Please don't tell me it's "to keep ED up." Auto-attacking for the length of your swing timer is certainly better than the benefit lost by waiting a little while to cast OR the slight gap in the crit buff.

How to fill the time while you're waiting for MW to stack up? Try earth shocking.

 

Gurth999

Actually you took issue when I said shaman were 'weak in arena'. Not that you presented any counter argument. It has somehow spawned into several pages of PVP balance discussion. Suggesting 'viable' because one person managed to reach a certain level isn't particularly useful by that description every class/spec is viable, but anyone with half a brain knows that most specs are severely disadvantaged (including all specs from certain classes). I don't really see how now trying to turn the argument to semantics is in anyway productive, let alone continuing a useless argument that you never defended in any useful way in the first place.

I had a post a few pages back where I suggested reverberation might be useful in a build because it would allow for a more consistent spell rotation which in turn would be keeping elemental devastation active through LvB. I could certainly see it being potentially stronger than full points in ancestral knowledge and dual wield specialization.

 

Mman

I agree with taking ES out of our rotation. Assuming we can get a full stack of maelstrom in under 10 seconds that means we will be casting FS less than every 10 seconds (to make sure we LvB w/ it up). Even with Reverberation I don't see us being able to weave in ES between the SS and LvBs. Under ideal spamming the rotation would look like.
0S - 1.5F - 8S - 9.5L - 11F etc. for a total of 8FS, 8SS and 7LvB in a minute.
If the idea doesn't happen and you could fit an extra shock it I think it would be more favorable to put FS back up to ensure it is up when you finally get to LvB. I'm think 9% melee crit + upfront FS damage is always giong to be bigger than what ES can do.


The only way we could fit in ES is if it takes us over 10 seconds to get maelstrom up. And even then we would get maybe an extra ES per minute w/ Reverberation over untalented. Simply not worth it imo.

 

Gurth999

0- Stormstrike 1.5- Flame Shock 6.5- Earth Shock 8.0- SS 9.5- Lava Burst
11.5- FS 16- SS 17.5- ES 19.5- LvB 22.5- FS 24- SS 27.5- ES 29.5- LvB
31- repeat from 0

Without reverberation I think you may run into issues with stormstrike's cooldown. It's certainly not going to be easy to get into a good rotation because of maelstrom weapon and LvB cooldown, reverberation allows you a bit more flexibility as well as the potential to squeeze a few more shocks in.

 

Hothgor

Right now, MW doesn't proc from WF and SS crits. Its widely believed that this is a bug. And as far as I know there are no other 'on crit' ability in the game that fail to work with special attacks. Right now, I can get a full stack of MW on average every 12-14 seconds with 25% crit at level 75. This would easily be cut in half if this 'bug' is fixed. So what do you lose out on without an extra shock in each rotation? Well not a whole lot actually, as those 5 points go towards Dual Wield Specialization and enhance shields, with one more point in Call of Flame.

Now I saw your rotation and I noticed one glaring problem: zero lag is factored in. Every spell you cast is going to set you off at least .1 seconds at a time. You'd always end up casting SS half a second or so after its cooldown is up. And what happens if the RNG bites you in the ass and you dont get that LvB stack until its half a second before you throw out your ES? Obviously a guranteed LvB crit is more important than a 'might crit' ES. And these situations WILL arise in your rotation! Its far less likely to occur with a simple SS - FlS - LvB rotation.

Again, its too much of a coincidence that iSS and LvB are on the same 8 second timer. Blizzard obviously doesn't want us to cast Earth Shock while raiding.

 

Toots Hepcat

We have a 5 or 6s cycle, and a cycle whose minimum period is 8s.

This means that we'll have a maximum of 7.5 LVBs per minute, and a maximum of 10 or 12 shocks per minute.

This leaves 2.5-4.5 shock CDs that aren't need to stack FS. These should be used for ES for maximum DPS.

The cycle isn't hard -- FS if it isn't up, ES if it is. The shorter cycle for shocks means there will ALWAYS be room for a minimum of one shock in between LvB casts.

It's not worthwhile to discuss specific rotations, because while the minimum period is 8s, the actual period is likely to vary based on the RNG.

 

LazyJoe

People seem to forget that any critical spell can proc elemental devastation.

Since we will have a reasonable (i'd say between 15 and 20%) of spell crit rating trhough unified hit rating and more int on our gear, we won't always need to use lavaburst in order to keep elemental devastation up.

The actual trend seems to double every stat between level 70 and level 80, so an average raiding shaman at level 80 may have something like 5000 attackpower, giving 1500 spellpower. That will give more than 200 more base damage to lightning bolt than to lavaburst since it scales better.

Using a lightning bolt doesn't consume the flame shock dots, and it allows to keep the usual flame-earth rotation on.

We need more precise numbers, but it seems to me that, dps-wise, the traditional flame-earth rotation and using maelstrom waepons to cast an instant lightning bolt will be better than using lavaburst, and lavaburst shoçulkd be used only to keep elemental devastation up at the price of some spell damage.

Reading Malan improves my english

 

Hothgor

Again we seem to be operating on the assumption that we are guaranteed to have a full MW stack every 8 seconds so that we can cast LvB the moment it comes off its cool down. Surely after playing this game for 3 years you know there can be no such luck involved. And by spending those extra 5 points in Elemental for that ONE Earth shock, you will be missing out on up to 6% hit and at least one point in elemental shields/call of flame. Is it worth it?

 

Mman

Gurth, I am assuming you are Lava Bursting every 10 seconds? Like I said, if that is how long it takes to get maelstrom up then you can fit ES in. However, there are problems with your rotation. The rotation looks fine for the first 30 seconds, however it gets tricker after that:
32SS - 34.5FS - 39.5LvB - 41SS

You wind up missing an ES charge and then you have to make the choice between LvB and SS (I chose LvB because SS will help get maelstrom back up). Lets follow the rotation out to 60 seconds"
42.5ES - 47.5FS - 49.5LvB - 51SS - 52.5FS - 57.5ES - 59.5LvB

Your LvB and your SS start getting on top of each other and you wind up only SS every 10 seconds instead of 8. In those first 60 seconds: 7SS - 5ES - 6FS - 5LvB.
Ever minute after that you get 6 of each and totally waste your improved SS.

e: wanted to see how this would compare exactly to ignoring ES and LvB less than every 10 seconds. LvB every 9 seconds gets you:
0SS - 1.5FS - 8SS - 9.5LvB - 11FS - 16SS - 18.5LvB - 21FS - 24SS - 26.5LvB - 28FS - 30SS - 34.5LvB - 36FS - 38SS - 42.5LvB - 44FS - 46SS - 50.5LvB - 51FS - 54SS - 59.5LvB

which basically equals 7SS, FS and LvB every minutes. If you LvB every 8 seconds you get pretty much the same results except an extra FS in a minute.

Now, the question is, is 1SS,Fs and LvB worth more than 6ES. Now, it is worth mentioning that in a 9sec rotation you keep FS up for a total 10 seconds each time. And you probably save mana by not ESing is much. But how does the damage compare? Because if it is better to weave in ES it might be better to ignore improved SS altogether.

 

Tornaz

I think that the development team have made some interesting decisions in the game design to work away from the concept of static rotations. There's a definite theme running through several of the new talents and abilities that revolve around disrupting a dedicated cycle and requiring reaction from the player - Sword and Board (Warrior talent) and Maelstrom Weapon here for Shaman being prime examples.

 

Gurth999

You're not going to lose 500ms due to lag unless you have the worlds worst connection, there are spaces in the rotation so it won't build up that much even if you have quite a bit of lag. I certainly don't see how leaving out reverberation would solve any of these problems other than the advantage of not doing anything more often so lag will factor less. The timings of LvB, stormstrike and the shocks are always going to be lag issues as its best to get the flameshock up as soon as possible after the LvB and you don't want to lose your SS. As for what you would do if MW hasn't built up a 5 stack when it comes ready, that's a good question, and that's partly why I left it spaced a hair and at ~10 seconds.

LvB would be the most efficient (for enhance) when its used on only the last tick of flame shock, and you get the most out of elemental devastation if its used within 10 seconds. It's possible you're going to run into problems with MW not being ready no matter what you do, but I don't see how eliminating ES is going to help that at all. If you're running into a situation where ES is going to eat into another spells cast I can see skipping it for a cycle.

The question comes down to whether the extra shocks you gain due to reverberation make up for for the lost points in other talents. In the build I used that's 2% on your LvB, 15% on your shields (isn't this talent just base value?) and 2% melee hit. Obviously we don't have nearly enough information on gear yet to make that determination, but I don't think its clear that reverberation is out of the picture.

 

berg

Even if you do not get to stormstrike every 8 seconds you still get the extra charges which is clearly worth something to your raid if not to you. If that talent did not lower the cool down at all it would still be one of our best returns per point spent in the entire tree.

I am not going to go over this again but modeling Maelstrom Weapon as a static cool down is nonsense.

 

Pitbuller

One rotation model in't very good way to look this.
We might end up 0/0 reverberation.
Then we have one 12sec rotation fs + es.
Stormstrike every 8s do not fit with shock rotation. So It may be better wait 1s and use 9s SS rotation.
Then we have high damage but random instat Lvb/lb.

So if Wotlk raid gear crita% will support instant cast every 6s it's very easy make 9s/6s/6s rotation. If not then make static: ss / fs / free / free / free / es / ss / free / free / fs / free/ free / ss / es ...
That make 18s rotation. Every free spot is for LvB or Lb. Using lb if elemental devastion is up(>5s) and LvB is elemental devastion is almoust fading or down. Lvb got high potential but if its eat all 4fs dot tick it's not gonna add much damage. 1754 with 1500spell power and all raid buffs vs 4000 without any eated tick. Lb avarage is 3116(with 20% crit).

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Gurth999

With no lag the rotation would be completely repeatable in 31seconds (provided MW stacks well enough). Lag is a factor with any rotation. I agree that you're probably going to lose some earth shocks due to lag, but that will happen even without reverberation, only you will lose more. If you're getting 2 extra earthshocks a minute I think reverberation probably beats out the talents it replaces. Obviously this would depend on sustainability (mana availability) as well.

 

Mman

Gurth, your rotation is repeatable at 31 seconds? How do you figure? You just SS 7 seconds ago. You would have to wait until 32 to SS again.

 

Toots Hepcat

And you only have to go to Gruul's one time if the DST drops on the first run. Please. You can't build a rotation that relies on the generosity of the RNG, this is just stupid. Any way you look at it, MW will be a bit of a wild card.

True; this comes up every time there's a debate on rotations.

Lag does not matter when you talk about rotations. The reason is simple: lag is different for all players, but is constant for a given player. As a result, it has no bearing on optimum rotation choice. These days a utility like Quartz as well as the "soft queue" can help you defeat most lag issues.

It is entirely possible to shock an average of 11.5+ times per minute; I've done it. The question is how much you lose from GCD interference when you interleave this cycle with 8s strikes.

 

Gurth999

Ah I see it now, you're right. I guess I'd have to wear some pvp gear.

It still doesn't change that I can see it quite possible that reverberation and using earthshock could quite possibly be more dps than the alternatives. A flameshock only no reverberation rotation is still going to have its own problems. 8 second stormstrike is a must for raid dps so do you drop to 1 flame shock every 8 seconds and try to sustain 1 lava burst every 8 seconds? Or do you just flameshock every 6 seconds and lavaburst when you have a 5 stack of MW hoping it doesn't step on other cooldowns?

While I don't expect to see a hard rotation (because of RNG regarding MW), I do think you will see a basic formula for an attack sequence. I only provided a rotation (although it would need a bit of work and leaway) to show that it was possible to work in extra dps with reverberation.