Gurth999

He could just delay that first LvB in the cycle by 2 seconds and it wouldn't throw the cycle off. The 5 crits in 5 seconds is only for the first cycle after that the LvB would always be 8 seconds.

The only issues after that would be mana sustainability and making sure maelstrom stacks fast enough.

 

Orlgin

Anyhow -- looking at my current gear, I'd lose 274 dps by switching from a 2.7s to a 1.3s weapon.

How did you come up with this number?

You stormstrike once every 8 seconds. This is a loss of about 400 damage. This is 50 DPS. This is based on your current weapons and similiar 1.4 speed DPS weapons. It is safe to assume they will be using a 1.4 speed dagger.

So now we look at Windfury: you have 1594 attack power. You said you get 1.15 swings per second which accounts for stormstrike swings as well as regular swings so you proc Windfury every 2.42 seconds. Then you encounter a 3 second cooldown period so total time between Windfury on average is 5.42 seconds.

Now Windfury at current rank adds 445 attack power so your Windfury strikes at 2039 attack power. Divided by 14, this represents 145.64 DPS. Subtracting the difference in speeds from the weapons (5.4 - 2.8 = 2.6), you multiply 145.64 by 2.6 which is 378.66. Now divide that by 5.42 seconds and you get 69.86 DPS

Now let's look at critical strike bonuses and the weapon mastery bonus.

You currently have 29.63% critical strike + 5% from Thundering Strikes and 10% damage bonus.

so 1.4463 times 119.86 DPS = 173.35 total DPS

But wait, this assumes that the fast weapons proc windfury as often as the slow weapons. This is obviously false.

2.24 swings per second means you proc Windfury on average of 1.24 seconds. Now add a 3 second cooldown and you get 4.24 seconds per Windfury. Subtract the difference in speeds (2.6 - 1.18) and you get 1.42 actual seconds difference. So the correct number for above was actually 145.64 times 1.42 which is 206.8 damage which gets divided by 5.42 seconds which leads to the correct result of 38.16 DPS.

38.16 + 50 = 88.16 * 1.4463 = 127.5 DPS

I believe you forgot to add the 3 sec cooldown on Windfury or you were talking about a beta character with more AP and a higher critical rate.

Now let's use some of my numbers:

Let's assume you were using a beta character with 3000 AP unbuffed. That 3000 AP gives a total similiar to the 270 DPS loss listed by you so that works for me. That means he has 1000 spell damage. 30% of that is the coefficient for Lightning Shield since it's instant cast so it adds 300 damage to Lightning Shield. Top Rank Lightning Shield is 380 so it'll hit for 680 a whack.

2.24 swings per second times 6% chance times 680 dmg a proc. This is 91.39 DPS
1.15 swings pet second times 6% chance times 680 dmg a proc. This is 46.92 DPS

You gain 44.47 DPS which isn't a ton.

Now let's check that Lightning Bolt. It averages about 765 damage at top rank with no spellpower. At a 71% coefficient, that 1000 spell damage adds 710 damage for a total of 1475 damage. Now you can cast this every 5 seconds with fast weapons on average so let's divide by 5. 295 DPS. Now we're talking. But wait. You probably got a 20% critical on that. You also picked up Concussion so let's multiply that result by 1.25 which is 368.75 DPS.

368.75 DPS + 44.47 DPS = 413.22 DPS

Now do you understand how I came to that conclusion?

I forgot to mention that if you have talented shields, your static shock DPS numbers will be higher

Edit: I made a mistake. Without Elemental Fury, Critical chance is only worth 150% so it should be 295 * 1.15 which is 339.25 DPS. The new total is 383.72. This is, of course, assuming you can achieve that LB on average of 5 seconds.

 

testthewest

To point out some mistakes:
The 10% weaponbonus also applies to crits, therefor the correct math would be:
100% base * 1,3463 (crit)*1,1(weap. mastery) = 148,093% (=/=1,4463)

Probably the same mistake:
Concussion applies also to crit, so 20% crit and concussion will give: 115,5% more dmg, compare to nocrits and no Talent.

 

Toots Hepcat

I used simulation.

You used speculation.

That is why you failed.

Weapon speed affects three aspects of our damage stream: windfury strength, flurry uptime percentage and stormstrike. You have only accounted for one of these variables.

Attached are two screen shots of sims of a set of gear. Same stats; however, I have changed the weapon speed.

-13 dps lost on auto attack (due to decreased flurry uptime)
-162 dps lost on Windfury (due to weaker procs and the inability to proc more often beyond a certain point due to the CD)
-73 dps lost from Stormstrike

Total, 248 lost (it's a bit lower than yesterday, as I removed the feral buff which I don't get much these days)

20% critical? If you stack a lot of crit rating, maybe. I'm looking at less than 13% with my current gear. Stacking more crit rating would have knock off effects on your melee damage, so it's hardly a straightforward tac. Doubling level adjusted crit rating doesn't seem likely; I'd only get another 3% by regemming.

Furthermore, spell criticals are only 50% additional damage. So rather than boosting your spells by 1.2x with 20% crit, you'd boost them by 1.1.

Finally, you've given us the dps from spells with your zany fast weapon spec. However, you've not given us the dps increase beyond using slow weapons. Your claimed DPS from lightning bolt - 368.75 - besides being wrong, is the total dps you get from fast weapons. Let's assume the number of MW 5 stacks doubled. You still only have an increase of 188. Add 45, this is 230 dps gained.

Your high end best case guesstimate numbers of dps gained from top-rank level 80 lightning bolts, spammed with 1.3s weapons, is 18 dps LESS than the DPS simulators show I lose at 70 by using faster weapons.

This isn't even taking into account the fact that you miss out on ED uptime by not using LvB.

Attached Thumbnails

   

 

Hothgor

Take a look:

11,5 sec: ES
13 sec: LvB (consuming FS from sec 6,5)
16 sec: SS
17,5 sec: FS

There is a 6 second difference between those shocks. You're also going to have 6 second shock after your 32 second SS. You will ALSO have a 6 second shock towards the end of your one minute cycle. There isn't a boss out there that has combat only lasting one minute. As the fight progresses, you will fall further and further behind. Essentially, you have a 5.5 second shock rotation. Again, doesn't that negate the purpose behind putting 5 points into Reverberation?

Essentially the only way to make these rotations work is for people to bite the bullet and simply have 10 seconds between their LvBs and Storm Strikes. Every second lost between shocks should further emphasize this point!

 

Hothgor

etc etc etc...

19.0 - Stormstrike
22.5 - Flame Shock
24.0 - Lava burst
27.0 - Stormstrike
27.5 - Flame Shock....woops!

 

Orlgin

Thanks for the help. Late night number crunching eheh.

I also wanted to point out that Haste will be a great stat in the future. It's ability to lower GCD will be really nice. Since both of the new DPS talents (maelstrom and static shock) get better with speed, it should be interesting to see how this will turn out.

 

Gurth999

No, his rotation has 8 seconds between lava bursts and 8 seconds between stormstrikes. He's not getting the full benefit of reverberation (2 of 6 shocks are at 6 second delay, that's not 5.5 seconds). So what? The point is to do more damage than the alternative builds not always make sure you get a shock every 5 seconds.

 

Malan

Then why put 5/5 in Reverbration.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Toots Hepcat

Orlgin, I just Armoried you.

Is that a god damn dagger in your left hand?

Please: go read, and UNDERSTAND, the theorycraft wiki. Understand why we use Windfury on both weapons. Understand why you should NEVER use a dagger, and certainly never buy one.

Understanding the current mechanics is essential to not making misinformed comments on the new mechanics.

 

Malan

Hit rating gems too.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Gurth999

Because putting in 4 points wouldn't allow you to shock 5 seconds apart? If you move a shock .2 seconds further back, you either need to push everything else back, or remove something. You don't have to shock every 5 seconds to get value out of 5/5 reverberation, doing it sometimes is enough if it gives you more value than the alternative talents.

 

Malan

You just said that the point was not to shock every 5 seconds. If you aren't shocking every 5 seconds I again ask - why put 5 points there.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Gurth999

You take 5/5 reverb for when you have to shock in 5 seconds.

Perhaps the word 'every' is giving you a problem, or are you just trolling?

 

Malan

You can't be serious, do I really need to spell this out for you?

You spend 5 points to reduce a cooldown by 1 second. You then post saying that you do not intend to use that spell every time the cooldown is up. Reasonably then, the talent points you have spent are going to waste because you are not using them.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Gurth999

Are you serious? So the talent points in mental quickness are wasted if you don't cast a spell with every conceivable GCD right?

 

Toots Hepcat

I think his point is you don't need to shock EVERY five seconds to get benefit from Reverb. So long as you shaved 1s off the cooldown once per cycle, you'd get something out of it.

The same could be said of faster SS as well -- that if you used it every 10s most of the time, but threw one out 2s early once or twice a minute, you would do more damage.

It is far too early to think about optimum rotations; I really wish you guys would cut it out. It's a massive scroll of little to no value. You have to PLAY the game to know what you can manage without going nuts. When BC was in beta, nobody would have predicted that totem twisting with flame shock would be the desired engame rotation. Similarly, none of the rotations any of us have produced will be the endgame rotation in Wrath.

 

Malan

edit - screw it, not gonna bother with this thread anymore

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Orlgin

If you're going to critique my post, please read the whole thing. My edit for the 150% for spells was in long before you made this post. Flurry time is assumed to be 100% so why you brought that up is beyond me. Stormstrike was accounted for if you read the post. The mistake I made was that it's 1 LB per 10 sec because I have to use Lava Burst in the second 5 seconds window.

Look, you may be right. Slow may be better. But you screwed up your simulation. First off, it's 1.4 speed weapons (which weapon did you use in the simulation to get 1.3?). When you say numbers that are more than double my math, that just looks funny to me. Especially since everyone here is checking my math and hasn't said one thing about that part being wrong. So once again, how did you come up with that number? If you're using daggers with far less DPS (julie's dagger anyone?), no small wonder that the number is completely off.

This all started because you wanted to prove me wrong. But I didn't use guesswork. I used math. Just like you asked. You started this. If you want to prove me wrong, that's fine. But do it right. We're humans and we make mistakes.

It's 1475 damage divided by 10 seconds which is 147.5. It's then multiplied by 1.155 which is 170.36 DPS.

Static shock would be 2.24 swings per second times 6% chance times 680 a proc * 1.15 (forgot shield talent) which is 100.5 DPS. Your slow version would generate 1.15 swings per second times 6% chance times 680 a proc *1.15 which is 53.96 DPS. Subtracting the two, you get a gain of 46.54 DPS.

Total of 216.9 DPS. Which isn't enough. You are correct. Slow is still better.

If you're going to critique me, for goodness sakes, read the whole damn post. This is the WoW forums all over again.

I'm trying to come up with a way to increase DPS. I think outside of the box and sometimes I get results and most of the time I hit a dead end. But that is the way of theorycrafting. You try new theories. You post them for feedback and discover you made a error and have to recalculate.

I'll work on coming up with a better spec and idea. I'll come back when I have some encouraging numbers.

Edit: I see you posted the simulation. The missing variable is hit rating. My build is designed to be hit capped. I based the number on hitting every time. You are not hit capped at all because current mechanics discourage it (it's less DPS). In WoLK, having hit is more valuable since it uses both spell hit and melee hit. That was the big mistake I made. Not being hit capped makes a big difference since Windfury and Stormstrike are a much greater % of your DPS.

 

Gurth999

I used an extreme example to illustrate because you appear to have difficulty with the concept. You put points in talents to achieve the overall maximum benefit for your actions, not necessarily to achieve the full measure of the individual talent. If putting 5 points in reverberation allows you to do more damage than putting less points in reverberation then the points are not wasted, they don't need to achieve maximum utilization to add value.

The question for me is: Are those 5 points in reverberation more valuable than putting the points in call of flame, elemental shields, ancestral knowledge and/or dual wield specialization?

 

Volodymyr

@Orlgin

Theorycraft aside, I am having a very difficult time taking your posts seriously after looking at your armory. Not trying to bag on you, but honestly, you are theorycrafting about upcoming mechanics when your knowledge of current mechanics is wrong.

 

Toots Hepcat

Of course I'm right. I did research, I understand the mechanics, I use the tools and I actually play correctly. You currently do none of these, and yet you're making suggestions on new ways to play following your own incorrect assumptions. Then you back them up with bad math.

All of my simulations are based on the theory that the ONLY thing that changes to meet your requirements is weapon speed. Shaman theory is about modeling feedback mechanics and comparing the results of feeding various inputs into that system; obviously, if I have to pull off gear and alter a bunch of stats just to show that fast weapons are shitty for shamans, I'd not really proving the mechanic. I'd be proving that a specific piece of gear is bad. Instead, I'm illustrating that even if I could hypothetically posess cake I'd consumed, it still wouldn't be as good as what I had instead.

I used 1.3s weapons because obviously you need to at least double the speed to approach double the MW and SS procs.

I did.

See?

I haven't seen result one. Your current gear provides lower DPS than other choices you could have made with no additional cost. In short: you aren't trying to come up with a way to increase DPS. You're trying to resist doing things right.

Thinking outside the box is fine. But you need to work with mechanics INSIDE the box to see if they fit. Start by knowing what they are, what they effect. And if they prove you wrong, you don't post them.

Another failure, especially since hit capping beyond 9% has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON MELEE CRIT. But it's a good place to start. Learn the attack table. Learn the slow and fast weapon curves. Experiment with the simulator. Show the math that proves hit rating is more valuable than AP, agility or crit rating.

Then you can step outside of the box. Of course, by then you'll realize that there's really no point to it.

 

TheJadeMonkey

But is the theorycrafting for upcoming mechanics fundamentally wrong? We can all agree that the mechanics going forward will change. It is a distinct possibility that the currently accepted best way to play enhance will not be the best way to play it moving forward. Investigating alternatives and asking for community feedback, verification, and testing is what this forum is all about. Honestly, I would suggest that the serious theorycrafters wipe the slate clean, forget the current state of TBC mechanics, and start from scratch when wotlk comes out (or at least when the talents, coefficients, ect start to resemble something of a finished product). Unless one investigates all avenues, the best way cannot be known. We may very well be suprised with what will work the best. At least Toots is presenting numerical arguements instead of Armory bashing.

 

mek

Yeah, well, what Olgin is arguing was fully investigated about 10 posts ago by Toots, and very obviously demonstrated to be wrong. How can someone with no comprehension of existing mechanics be expected to effectively predict the consequences of new mechanics?

 

Skiace

To be fair, with that fast offhand his WF/SS dps is obviously going to be nurfed, and his white dps is gonna be a disproportionately high percentage of his overall dps, so it's possible that hit gems are worth something to him. Of course, the idea that he ran the sim with his gear and min-maxed his gems accordingly while still using a 1.4 pvp offhand is probably giving him too much credit.