Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 46

ugbutz · 08/08/08, 9:23 PM

I just dont get it, why the hell are all you guys arguing about an imaginary, perfect cast rotation? Mw will requeire 5 crits...i hope you all remember: Crit is a bitch!
Even with my(up to)50% crit it still happens that there is no single crit in about 8 or 9 seconds. After that, the next 10 strikes all crit. Why do you think a perfect spell rotation is possible?

Tornaz · 08/08/08, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by ChaguraED

Time to interrupt Shock rotations with news:

# Glyph - Strength of Earth 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Strength of Earth Totem also grants 1% melee and ranged critical strike chance.
# Glyph - Windfury Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.
# Glyph - Stormstrike 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the nature damage bonus from your Stormstrike ability by an additional 8%.
# Glyph - Earth Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the global cooldown triggered by your Earth Shock ability by 1 sec.
# Glyph - Frost Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the duration of your Frost Shock by 2 sec.

In the new build

I think it's worth quoting this on this new page to make sure it is visible to everyone.

I also want to point out to everyone that working up "perfect" rotations would seem to be missing the point. Rather than working to a set rotation, it would seem that reactive use of spells to compensate for what the RNG throws at you will produce the largest benefit.

The RNG nature of MW leads to the conclusion that breaking up of "perfect" skill rotations is intentional on the part of the development teams.

PsyBomb · 08/08/08, 10:51 PM

Whomever wrote the glyphs didn't really know what he was doing, it appears. At the very least, whomever it was is not conversant in several fundamental ability changes.

# Glyph - Windfury Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.

Seriously, I'm waiting for the real ones.

Rouncer · 08/08/08, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

Whomever wrote the glyphs didn't really know what he was doing, it appears. At the very least, whomever it was is not conversant in several fundamental ability changes.

# Glyph - Windfury Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.

Seriously, I'm waiting for the real ones.

Windfury WEAPON not Windfury TOTEM. Windfury Weapon hasn't changed in the slightest, Windfury Totem is what changed.

PsyBomb · 08/08/08, 11:16 PM

*sigh* thanks for the correction. I seem to be making a habit of eating my foot in this thread.

Orlgin · 08/08/08, 11:46 PM

I am not geared optimally. I already knew that. My gearing was done prior to my knowledge of how to do so correctly. I haven't taken the time to correct it. I certainly didn't expect an entire page of Armory bashing. If you'll notice, the gear is out of date. I had a son five and a half months ago. He takes a lot of time away from WoW playing.

I do theorycraft in my head while I am working on duties that don't require a lot of attention. I do the math in my head and then write it down on my breaks. I was looking at how the new talents got better as you get more haste. I posted what was on my mind and the basic math I had used. I should have done more work before I posted here and for that, I apologize.

When I get a better idea, I'll present it properly. My apologies for wasting people's time.

Illundai · 08/09/08, 1:02 AM

I'm getting reports that Strength of Earth is now raidwide.

Draenorm · 08/09/08, 2:30 AM

Possibly 3 more talent points for us to spend if that's true.

Jheherrin · 08/09/08, 5:20 AM

Forgive me for making what may be a stupid observation, but I cannot see how SoE being raid wide frees up 3 talent points.

Draenorm · 08/09/08, 5:28 AM

Resto can spec into it if they subspec enhance. The new glyph granting 1% crit to SoE totem might nullify that reasoning though.

Pitbuller · 08/09/08, 8:12 AM

    * Glyph - Water Shield 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Water Shield has 3 additional charges.
    * Glyph - Chain Heal 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Chain Heal heals 1 additional target.
    * Glyph - Lesser Healing Wave 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Lesser Healing Wave heals for 20% more if the target is also affected by your Earth Shield.
    * Glyph - Earthliving Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the chance for your Earthliving weapon to trigger by 5%.
    * Glyph - Healing Wave 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Healing Wave also heals you for 20% of the healing effect when you heal someone else.
    * Glyph - Mana Tide 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Mana Tide Totem grants an additional 1% of each target's maximum mana each time it pulses.
    * Glyph - Earth Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the global cooldown triggered by your Earth Shock ability by 1 sec.
    * Glyph - Frost Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the duration of your Frost Shock by 2 sec.
    * Glyph - Strength of Earth 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Strength of Earth Totem also grants 1% melee and ranged critical strike chance.
    * Glyph - Windfury Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.
    * Glyph - Stormstrike 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the nature damage bonus from your Stormstrike ability by an additional 8%.
    * Glyph - Flame Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the range on your Flame Shock ability by 10 yards.
    * Glyph - Lighnting Shield 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the damage from Lightning Shield by 20%.
    * Glyph - Chain Lightning 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Chain Lightning strikes 1 additional target.
    * Glyph - Fire Nova Totem 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the radius of Fire Nova Totem's effect by 2 yards.
    * Glyph - Flametongue Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases spell critical strike chance by 2% while Flametongue Weapon is active.
    * Glyph - Totem of Wrath 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Totem of Wrath also grants 1% spell haste.
    * Glyph - Lightning Bolt 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the cost of your Lightning Bolt ability by -10%.
    * Glyph - Earth Elemental Totem 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the cooldown of your Earth Elemental Totem by 3 min.
    * Glyph - Fire Elemental Totem 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the cooldown of your Fire Elemental Totem by 3 min.
    * Glyph - Healing Stream Totem 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Healing Stream Totem heals for an additional 20%.

* Glyph - Lighnting Shield 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the damage from Lightning Shield by 20%.
If this is minor we get some boost to static shock.

* Glyph - Earth Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the global cooldown triggered by your Earth Shock ability by 1 sec.
This with reverberation or without make Earth shock more attractive to cycles. Elemental shamans may see some potential rotation use of this what might not be intented. (872+ 0.43*2500 / 0.5s) = 3886dps without buffs.

* Glyph - Healing Stream Totem 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Healing Stream Totem heals for an additional 20%
We might have to use this if there is no elemental shaman around.(assuming raidwide)

Edit: Some other changes:

*Glyph of Blessing of Might - Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.

*Totem of Wrath (Tier 9) increases the damage done by spells and effects by 6% and increases the chance strike chance of spells and effects by by 3%. (Previously increased hit chance by 3%)
Elementals need to stay 30ayd range so we get benefit.

* Elemental Weapons (Tier 5) does not affect Rockbiter Weapon anymore.
Why not remove flametongue effect too then? Still damage proc?

* Feral Spirit (Tier 11) increased to a 3 min cooldown. (Was 2 minutes)

*Glyph of Blessing of Kings - Your Blessing of Kings also increases attack power on affected targets by 3%.

Tornaz · 08/09/08, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Draenorm

Resto can spec into it if they subspec enhance. The new glyph granting 1% crit to SoE totem might nullify that reasoning though.

Given that Resto talent allocation is already pretty tight, I can't see a Resto Shaman taking anything other than 5/5 Ancestral Knowledge for synergy with Nature's Blessing from the first tier of Enhancement talents.

Tana Umaga · 08/09/08, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by panny

what the fuck?

I'm saying Totemic Mastery is why people go into Resto for PvP. I wasn't saying anything about PvE.

So, if my PvE spec allows me to have Totemic Mastery... Should I need to spec Resto for going PvP? If you say Totemic Mastery is the reason to spec Resto, and I already got that... I assume there should be some other reasons... or?

Aezoc · 08/09/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Tana Umaga

So, if my PvE spec allows me to have Totemic Mastery... Should I need to spec Resto for going PvP? If you say Totemic Mastery is the reason to spec Resto, and I already got that... I assume there should be some other reasons... or?

What's it matter? It's gone now. I'd actually liked to have see it stay as a 30->40 yard range talent. I think it would have been a nice perk for resto at that point without having been required.

Staticus · 08/09/08, 11:40 AM

Do we know anything about weapon enchants at lvl 80 yet? Would mongoose and executioner still be viable like crusader was at 70? (to start with at least)

• Shabadu · 08/09/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

* Elemental Weapons (Tier 5) does not affect Rockbiter Weapon anymore.
Why not remove flametongue effect too then? Still damage proc?

Flametongue has the fire damage on hit, as well as some unknown value of spell damage(tooltip broken currently).

Tana Umaga · 08/09/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

What's it matter? It's gone now. I'd actually liked to have see it stay as a 30->40 yard range talent. I think it would have been a nice perk for resto at that point without having been required.

It mattered at the time it was being said here that nowadays Totemic Mastery was the reason people specced resto for PvP. And what I said is, either this is false, or incomplete, or crap.

But now, no, it doesn't matter.

Skippert · 08/09/08, 3:52 PM

On to something else: Beta build 8770 is here and Deathknights will give the same raidbuff as Unleashed Rage now:

Abominations Might:
Blood/heartstrikes/obliberates have 50/100% chance to increase the attackpower by 10% of raid members within 20yards for 10seconds. (was +10% strength before)
(source: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight= blood tree tier6)

Does not stack with Unleashed Rage. Enhancement shamans will now only bring their own "unique" 4% extra haste on windfury totem. Stormstrike raid contribution is rather low when you don't have an elemental shaman and most of a balance druid's damage is arcane. Hunterpets dealing nature dmg will get a small buff, but it's nothing big. That doesn't leave much enhancement contribution except personal DPS. How you guys think this will affect our viability when deathknights are getting ready to raid? Blood deathknights granting this buff will also have shadowpriest like healthregen abilities. I think the enhancement spot won't be guaranteed anymore while at the moment, it basically is. Not that smart of a choice to make raidbuffing abilities non-unique if you ask me.

Illundai · 08/09/08, 3:59 PM

Frost Death Knights bring the Windfury buff too. So yeah, you're gonna have to share your spots with the new class.

Aezoc · 08/09/08, 4:27 PM

I don't think Blizz is out to have DKs replace enhancement shaman, they're just adding options. No single DK spec can bring the number of raid buffs that enhancement does, so it'd be silly to try and sit an enhancement shaman in favor of a DK (and on paper, I don't think the AM/imp. icy talons DK spec will have personal DPS on par with enhancement either). What it does allow is a raid without an enhancement shaman to still get the same buffs, say via a DK with that spec and a resto shaman with imp. SoE. Seems to me that if you had both a DK and enhancement shaman, you'd want the DK as unholy for ebon plague.

I personally think it's a good change - with 30 specs and 25 raid spots, you can't give out uber raid buffs to a single spec, or they essentially become mandatory. I'd venture to say we already have some of the strongest buffs now, and things look even better in WotLK with the SoE/WF changes. By giving DK buffs some overlap with ours, we can still keep our buffs as strong as they are. Otherwise, I think the alternative would just be nerfing WF/UR/SoE until they're weak enough that they don't define a melee group, and that's no good.

Edit: typo

Mman · 08/09/08, 4:27 PM

Wow, why would they give one spec in one class almost identical buffs as us? I understand the idea of parity as to not make any one class/spec necessary, but this is just pure duplication. What will wind up happening is the same min/maxing that has always gone on. People will weigh the DK's personal DPS and healing abilities versus our DPS+heroism+SoE and choose the best one.

Not to mention, the whole reason I chose enhancement shaman as my spec was that I really enjoyed doing both DPS and being a buffing monster (now there are tons of specs that give awesome party/raid buffs). And if it comes down choosing either a blood DK or an enhancement shaman, if they chose the shaman the DK can just respec and dps in another tree. If they chose the DK then I have to sit out or respec into an entirely different role that requires a second set of gear.

Illundai · 08/09/08, 5:29 PM

Deathknights have to do a lot of tradeoffs to give the same buffs that Enhancement brings, don't worry. And they don't give the SoE buff.

Example build, Blood/Frost:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00000000000000

They need to sacrifice:

- 8 Expertise
- 10% more damage if they're above 75% HP
- Dancing Rune Weapon, which effectively doubles their white damage for the duration.

It's a big sacrifice, so I wouldn't get too worried :-).

Skippert · 08/09/08, 5:41 PM

Icy Touch will probably not stack with WF so you don't have to give up as many blood talents as in ur spec.
If you have 2 or 3 shamans in the raid, you can still get WF, strength+GOA totems without enhancement shaman. The 15% stronger SoE is hardly a buff, stormstrike doesn't add much without an elemental shaman so 4% WF haste is the only real loss. Instead from a blood deathknight you can get shadowpriest like party healing.

I said "I think the enhancement spot won't be guaranteed anymore while at the moment, it basically is."
I didn't say it's impossible to get a raiding spot in WOTLK, but it will not be that obvious anymore in WOTLK with just 25spots and 10 classes. As far as personal DPS goes, I think the personal DPS of deathknights, retridins and enhancement shamans will all be rather similar with equal gear and decent PVE spec because all 3 classes are melee DPS with decent raidbuffing tools, be it DPS increasing or regenerating tools.

I think we agree though that it's bad design from Blizzard to give two 'special specs/classes' an identical non-stacking raidbuff tool.

Mman · 08/09/08, 5:49 PM

Hmm, you are probably right. It still seems silly to give them a talent that is almost identical to ours. Probably most raiding blood DKs will skip it unless they know an enhancement shaman will not be running with them. I wonder whose buff would have the most uptime though. In a raid environment we can keep unleashed raged up pretty consistently, so I'd imagine DKs use those attacks often enough to keep it constantly up.

I think the better way to handle these raid buffs is to make basically 2 categories of buffs. 1 would buff 1 thing very well and the other buff would buff 2 things just not as well. For instance, if DK's Abom Might did the old thing where it buffed strength you could make it not stack w/ the strength part of our SoE. Their talent is more powerful than our totem so it would overwrite our buff. However, even with a blood DK we would use SoE because it would still buff agility and would fill in if Abom Might wasn't up for whatever reason. Instead of having 1+1=1 or 1+1=2, make 1+1=1.5.

Hothgor · 08/09/08, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mman

Hmm, you are probably right. It still seems silly to give them a talent that is almost identical to ours. Probably most raiding blood DKs will skip it unless they know an enhancement shaman will not be running with them. I wonder whose buff would have the most uptime though. In a raid environment we can keep unleashed raged up pretty consistently, so I'd imagine DKs use those attacks often enough to keep it constantly up.

I think the better way to handle these raid buffs is to make basically 2 categories of buffs. 1 would buff 1 thing very well and the other buff would buff 2 things just not as well. For instance, if DK's Abom Might did the old thing where it buffed strength you could make it not stack w/ the strength part of our SoE. Their talent is more powerful than our totem so it would overwrite our buff. However, even with a blood DK we would use SoE because it would still buff agility and would fill in if Abom Might wasn't up for whatever reason. Instead of having 1+1=1 or 1+1=2, make 1+1=1.5.

Lets not forget that Windfury Totem is 20% haste for melee AND ranged attacks, while Icy Touch is for melee only. I highly doubt there will be many raids that don't bring at least 1 hunter to them, so it wouldn't make much sense to 'replace' an enhancement shaman and his bloodlust for a Death Knight. They are there to 'fill in' if needed for some of our utility, not usurp us. That's why all of their raid enhancing abilities are 25+ talent points into 3 different tree. Jack of all trades...master of none.

But if they wanted to make DKs a bit more raid friendly, they could:

Make Abominations Strength increase your raids Str and Agility by 5%, which then allows it to stack with Unleashed Rage. For Rogues/Druids/Enhancement Shamans (two of which need the extra ap anyway), that's still 10% extra AP, but for Warriors/DKs/Paladins/Hunters, thats only 5% more attack power.

Make Icy Touch increase the raids melee AND spell haste by 10%, also allowing it to stack with our two totems. I wouldn't care if they lowered WF totem to 10% base haste, with 4% from talents. Thats only 4% extra melee haste for the raid. You could get some interesting raid synergies that way.