1: Do you know many hunters who will be within 20 yards of your totems? In fact, there is a talent in the survival tree that increases damage for being at max distance.
2: +5% to agility and strength is not +10% AP to anybody because it doesn't affect +AP stats. And it would be pretty much the same thing to warriors, dks and pallys because they get 2ap from strength.
3: You want blizzard to NERF our WF so that we have synergy? That is just plain stupid and solves nothing. It would simply making bringing an enhancement shaman and a frost DK necessary. It is about the only thing worse Blizzard could do and it is the exact opposite of what they are going for.
Lets not forget that Windfury Totem is 20% haste for melee AND ranged attacks, while Make Abominations Strength increase your raids Str and Agility by 5%, which then allows it to stack with Unleashed Rage. For Rogues/Druids/Enhancement Shamans (two of which need the extra ap anyway), that's still 10% extra AP, but for Warriors/DKs/Paladins/Hunters, thats only 5% more attack power.
It has already been noted that it isn't 10%, and even if all AP for the '10%' classes did indeed come from those stats, it would still not be 10%, but really only 5%.
But I would grab any scaling buff outside Kings with my bare hands and hold on for dear life. It still feels silly that UR is melee only, or shouts for that matter (but this is about Enhancement not Warriors).
I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but I really want peoples feedback on this idea before I pursue it further.
Maelstrom Weapon
Right now, 'every time' you crit, you get one Maelstrom Weapon charge. Just like Flurry/UR/Windfury, this can be a streaky bastard and its very difficult to model. What if they were to change Maelstrom Weapon from a proc on crit ability to a proc after X hits ability. That would make it far easier to model, as we essentially have Windfury/Melee/Stormstrike attacks worked out, and far more consistant and more likely for us to be able to use Lava Burst at its cooldown.
Would you guys rather have it proc after X number of attacks, or leave it as it is?
Number of hits won't work. It would make fast weapons way too powerful. Not to mention our number of hits can be streaky as well w/ windfury. It would probably make haste too powerful as well.
I think Blizzard wants to make it be a sort of random event to break up our rotations.
Number of hits won't work. It would make fast weapons way too powerful. Not to mention our number of hits can be streaky as well w/ windfury. It would probably make haste too powerful as well.
I think Blizzard wants to make it be a sort of random event to break up our rotations.
Well why does blizzard want our rotation to be broken up, but the recently 'fixed' Death Knights so they have a 'more friendly' rotation? Same for the auto shot change with Hunters. They obviously have some kind of design in mind. And as for fast weapons being supperior, slow weapons with WF would still do way more melee damage than fast/fast. And haste is already ridiculous.
Edit: Say we wanted to make it not scale as well with fast weapons. Say we want it to go off every 3 hits with a 2.6 speed weapon. Its very easy to add a simple formula to even out the attacks while favoring slow weapons.
I really don't know too much about how a DK plays (although I have seen the blizz comments about designing their rotations). But I do know DK's have way more abilities than we do. So even though they might have a max dps/threat rotation, their abilities and the nature of runes means they are much more adaptive than shamans our. (although we do get some adaptive abilities through our totems)
Blizzard does seem to be consciously trying to add some variety to our DPS through maelstrom. It is a powerful mechanic, but the chaos keeps it from being too powerful. I like that it will be unpredictable, it kind of fits in line with the way enhancement plays (huge but sometimes unpredictable burst damage).
You should also remember that it currently effect healing spells. If it was hit based, sure it would hurt our dps, but the ability to quickly get instant heals would be way too powerful in pvp. I also think there are applications for this in PvE too. Most of the time we will use LvB for personal DPS, I can think of a couple of fight mechanics that would greatly benefit from us being able to throw an instant chain heal to fellow melee once in a while.
I really don't know too much about how a DK plays (although I have seen the blizz comments about designing their rotations). But I do know DK's have way more abilities than we do. So even though they might have a max dps/threat rotation, their abilities and the nature of runes means they are much more adaptive than shamans our. (although we do get some adaptive abilities through our totems)
Blizzard does seem to be consciously trying to add some variety to our DPS through maelstrom. It is a powerful mechanic, but the chaos keeps it from being too powerful. I like that it will be unpredictable, it kind of fits in line with the way enhancement plays (huge but sometimes unpredictable burst damage).
You should also remember that it currently effect healing spells. If it was hit based, sure it would hurt our dps, but the ability to quickly get instant heals would be way too powerful in pvp. I also think there are applications for this in PvE too. Most of the time we will use LvB for personal DPS, I can think of a couple of fight mechanics that would greatly benefit from us being able to throw an instant chain heal to fellow melee once in a while.
I'm pretty sure the tool-tip still says it only affects LB/CL/LvB.
I'm pretty sure the tool-tip still says it only affects LB/CL/LvB.
only LB/CL/LvB
I wish it was affecting healing spells but that is not the case in the current beta and there has been no indication from Blue that it will be changing anytime soon.
Oh and Hothgor, unless you are a Blizzard Developer or in close contact with a Blizzard Developer who actually will allow you to influence their thought process stating that you want to change the mechanism of Maelstrom Weapon from an on crit proc to a proc after a certain number of hits is the equivalent of stating "I want to shit chocolate ice cream with strawberry sauce". Some people might love the concept while others may wish to stay with the current mechanisms but in any case stating it ain't likely to make it happen.
[I understand that this could potentially earn me an infraction but this thread is drowning in way too much bullshit at the moment]
(e2) what I meant by that Hothgor is that it is fine to suggest another mechanism but this is really not the thread to do that in especially since this thread is so far gone from it's intended purpose and really just needs to quiet down till we get something new from Blizzard that is worth discussing.
I wish it was affecting healing spells but that is not the case in the current beta and there has been no indication from Blue that it will be changing anytime soon.
Oh and Hothgor, unless you are a Blizzard Developer or in close contact with a Blizzard Developer who actually will allow you to influence their thought process stating that you want to change the mechanism of Maelstrom Weapon from an on crit proc to a proc after a certain number of hits is the equivalent of stating "I want to shit chocolate ice cream with strawberry sauce". Some people might love the concept while others may wish to stay with the current mechanisms but in any case stating it ain't likely to make it happen.
[I understand that this could potentially earn me an infraction but this thread is drowning in way too much bullshit at the moment]
(e2) what I meant by that Hothgor is that it is fine to suggest another mechanism but this is really not the thread to do that in especially since this thread is so far gone from it's intended purpose and really just needs to quiet down till we get something new from Blizzard that is worth discussing.
I understand where you're coming from. I wanted to avoid another 'bitch fest' on the shaman forums and thought I would run the idea by here before making a suggestion post :P
It is probably better to create a bitch fest on the Shaman forums, which are full of shit and whining anyway, and then pick out the few nuggets of truth to bring here for intelligent discussion.
Glyph - Windfury Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.
So now we have 475 AP on WF attacks, with this Glyph we would get 665.
Using 2.6 weapons we would get (665-475)/14*2.6*110%*140%=54.34 additional damage from each WF proc attack (3/3 Elemental Weapons, 5/5 Weapon Mastery) IMHO not 2 good…
So now we have 475 AP on WF attacks, with this Glyph we would get 665.
Using 2.6 weapons we would get (665-475)/14*2.6*110%*140%=54.34 additional damage from each WF proc attack (3/3 Elemental Weapons, 5/5 Weapon Mastery) IMHO not 2 good…
The new ranks of Windfury Weapon are not in the Beta.
Considering the current progression, the WoLK rank of Windfury Weapon should add ~600AP. So that inscription would take the WF AP bonus to 840 which would be 69 damage added to each windfury proc attack.
Totem of the Astral Winds adds 80 AP to your Windfury AP bonus. It gives roughly 14dps on it's own. The inscription is 4x stronger then that so it should add ~52dps and you are arguing that it is too weak?
Still 20 yards, so it is mostly not going to affect Hunters. But who is to say we might not move closer to get it... Save Survival Hunters with Sniper Training. Interesting how Blizzard seems to want the longest ranged class crammed into less than 20 yards.
Yeah, not sure why they don't change the effects to 40 yards. I mean, it pretty much only effects hunters. Unless they want to leave it at short range for pvp.
Still 20 yards, so it is mostly not going to affect Hunters. But who is to say we might not move closer to get it... Save Survival Hunters with Sniper Training. Interesting how Blizzard seems to want the longest ranged class crammed into less than 20 yards.
Basically what hunters need is to gain the buffs that their pets have.
Exactly...
And thanks for that WarTotem. I more or less assumed that Survs would want to get closer, but it most case if you stand behind the Enhancement Shaman you can get WF and still be more than 30 yards away from the target.
I was thinking. Considering Death Knights will be keeping up Abomination's Might, there is no real need for an Enhance Shaman to have Unleashed Rage. You could just skip the 5 points in there for raids.
I was thinking. Considering Death Knights will be keeping up Abomination's Might, there is no real need for an Enhance Shaman to have Unleashed Rage. You could just skip the 5 points in there for raids.
I guess you could fight over who gets to waste the points, but considering its only 2 for for the DK I guess shaman would win that argument. However, you might want to do something more constructive with them than improved fire nova totem. Perhaps another point in ancestral knowledge.
You might even be able to convince that same DK to take icy talons and then you can skip the 2 points in improved Windfury totem as well. It only costs the DK 1. Even if the DK ability doesn't include ranged I'm not sure 4% haste for hunters alone would justify those points.
<edit>If you do that it would open up an elemental fury vs spirit wolves as a direct comparison almost.
Has anyone in the Beta verified the Flametongue weapon coefficient is still 10%? I seem to recall it gives 100 spell damage now if it's talented. Anyone mind verifying that? I'll like to do some number crunching but I want to make sure the data I'm using is accurate.
I guess you could fight over who gets to waste the points, but considering its only 2 for for the DK I guess shaman would win that argument. However, you might want to do something more constructive with them than improved fire nova totem. Perhaps another point in ancestral knowledge.
You might even be able to convince that same DK to take icy talons and then you can skip the 2 points in improved Windfury totem as well. It only costs the DK 1. Even if the DK ability doesn't include ranged I'm not sure 4% haste for hunters alone would justify those points.
<edit>If you do that it would open up an elemental fury vs spirit wolves as a direct comparison almost.
Well it was just a quick draft really, picking up stuff that I could. The problem with Icy Talons is that its pretty far down into the Frost tree and Frost doesn't really bring a lot of raid benefits, so it's most likely a subspec (for now) and you need to make some hefty sacrifices to get it. That's what got me thinking. Shamans can drop UR and get Imp WF, while the DK brings the AP increase to the table. The best of two worlds.
Well it was just a quick draft really, picking up stuff that I could. The problem with Icy Talons is that its pretty far down into the Frost tree and Frost doesn't really bring a lot of raid benefits, so it's most likely a subspec (for now) and you need to make some hefty sacrifices to get it. That's what got me thinking. Shamans can drop UR and get Imp WF, while the DK brings the AP increase to the table. The best of two worlds.
It only requires 26 points in frost and it's also quite likely that there will be more than 1 DK in a raid. There's some decent dps talents for the DK in frost, but obviously they are still balancing.
I was only taking what you were suggesting a step further and shaman may have the ability to be a bit more flexible in their spec depending on what other classes decide to do. Realistically I probably wouldn't drop unleashed rage just because its useful in PvP, 5 and 10 mans, you're not always going to have a DK with you. Although if they follow through with the multiple talent builds idea it's something to keep in mind.
08/09/08, 6:29 PM
