Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 49

dedmonwakeen · 08/12/08, 8:56 AM

Originally Posted by Wundorn

Has anyone built and tried this yet? How accurate is it, compared to beta?

Is there a version for BC that we can test against live, or compare to Yo!'s?

The sample parameter file raid_wotlk.txt is setup for beta...... but it can be tweaked for live:

(1) change patch to 2.4.3 from 3.0.0
(2) change target_level to 73 from 83
(3) change player levels from 80 to 70
(4) use "live" http talent encoding strings instead of the "wrath" versions
(5) edit the gear accordingly

hmmm..... I'll add a "raid_bc.txt" parameter file later today

Mman · 08/12/08, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by testthewest

Wouldn't it be a solution making those unstacking buffs only partywide again? So you could put the DK in the tankgroup, and the enhancer in the meleegroup? Furthermore, in a 10 man raiding, you only needed one of those two, giving you the flexibility that 10-man raiding needs.

Yeah, it really does seem like Blizzard went "Ok, lets make your buffs super-powerful so they effect the whole raid!" then turned around and went "OMG, now if a raid doesn't have your buff they are fucked, lets make sure that somebody else can do exactly what you do."

I was happy when they made totems raid wide, but Blizz really ran with the idea and made nearly all buffs affect the entire raid. Not sure if that really is the best plan (how about make baseline abilities raid wide and talented abilities party only?)

Toots Hepcat · 08/12/08, 10:56 AM

To be fair, I believe they're only making buffs with a range requirement (battle shout, UR, totems) raid-wide.

It's going to change the face of battlegrounds, that's for damn sure.

Adrammelech · 08/12/08, 11:06 AM

"I agree the shamans are getting unfairly picked on, though I also agree you've probably seen the last of Bloodlust rotations." - Source

Though nothing set in stone at this time, I personally had a feeling this was coming in some form or another.

Shokkina · 08/12/08, 11:15 AM

I noticed someone reported the idea i posted here for MW(the idea is not mine, i just reported it here for better discussion) on official beta forum. It is great.

Another issue that came up in the discussion where i took the idea is that with maelstrom weapon we have another ability relying on crits. This way with the changes released so far we rely on crits for:

- flurry
- maelstrom weapons
- shamanistic focus

and on spell crit for:

- elemental devastation
- elemental fury

While we can "force" the spell crit with LvB, resilience still gimps us too much for being so much crit dependant.
The only solution to this problem would be to get benefit from "on crit" effects even if resilience negates the crit. At the moment it only works this way defensively(talents activated when being crit) for what i know(if it works "offensively" too then forget about this post).
I can see they making such a big change, that would affect other talents such as deep wounds to be fair, after the big change they are gonna make for spell pushback.

Toots Hepcat · 08/12/08, 11:27 AM

The worst thing about that post is that it says, more or less, that when the designers went to draw up plans of which classes need get out of the way for their new class, it's hybrids that get the axe. Which is sort of a shift back to the vanilla WoW mantra that if you want to go to raids and can heal, you should heal.

It also means that designers are really designing to encourage the entry of certain classes. That troubles me. You know all those instances in BC that are a thousand times easier with a paladin tank? Expect to see them again, except built around the death knight.

In their example -- who drops for the retadin, moonkin and death knight -- should be unanswerable without knowing the skill and loyalty to the guild of each character. And nothing more than that.

Toots Hepcat · 08/12/08, 11:36 AM

Actually, resilience is a good counter to what might otherwise be unfairly advantageous. Resto spec offers an instant cast, uninterruptable spell every 3 minutes; we get one every few seconds. Having to wait a little longer is not "gimping."

Remember: resilience doesn't make crits go away. It merely reduced their frequency. A target with 400 resilience is only decreasing your chance to crit by 10%; by the time you face such a foe you'll have 28%+ crit chance. You're still stacking MW about 4 times a minute.

Resilience is all about making fights last longer, so the player with superior skill and control (and not just the one swinging heavy for quick gibs) has a better chance to win.

Considering the real value of MW in PvP is going to come from chaining it with our other abilities to do massive controlled damage in 3s, I think it's going to be a stellar talent.

Adrammelech · 08/12/08, 11:57 AM

While resilience might be obnoxious for MW stacking (5 more seconds on it's duration could help a lot) I don't really think it's too big a deal. Enhance has a lot to do besides worry about crits on most arena teams. Totem management, purging, shocking/grounding, if there's any sort of double melee you'll probably spend a lot of time with a shield out and try to avoid a gib. I mean, maybe I'm bad at shaman, but thats my experience.

Of the classes I arena on, I think I've felt the sting of resilience the least on my shaman. It's certainly nothing like trying out a fire mage where your crits get double dipped.

@Hepcat, I'm sure a lot a of class specs are concerned about the issue (dps warriors for example basically get in based on their ap buff and BF debuff). I can only hope the end result is that you can recruit/bring the people you like and who play well. I know that in my personal early TBC raiding experience that if I could have sat lame shadow priests coasting on their mana battery status for some of the hunters I played with who were awesome I'd have done that in a heartbeat.

Rouncer · 08/12/08, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Actually, resilience is a good counter to what might otherwise be unfairly advantageous. Resto spec offers an instant cast, uninterruptable spell every 3 minutes; we get one every few seconds. Having to wait a little longer is not "gimping."

Remember: resilience doesn't make crits go away. It merely reduced their frequency. A target with 400 resilience is only decreasing your chance to crit by 10%; by the time you face such a foe you'll have 28%+ crit chance. You're still stacking MW about 4 times a minute.

Resilience is all about making fights last longer, so the player with superior skill and control (and not just the one swinging heavy for quick gibs) has a better chance to win.

Considering the real value of MW in PvP is going to come from chaining it with our other abilities to do massive controlled damage in 3s, I think it's going to be a stellar talent.

Resilience is a damage decrease and that is fine and it does work very well in that context but the issue is that it is unfairly burdensome to classes that derive ancillary benefits from those crits. They addressed the situation with defensive abilities that proc when crit and I really think they need to do the same with the offensive ones.

Resilience was changed to affect DoTs since leaving them unaffected was an unfair disadvantage to any class that relies on critical hits for their damage. This parallels that. We rely on those procs from crits to function and our damage is decreased (and our mana expenditure is increased) far in excess of a class who didn't have any procs from critical hits or who didn't rely on critical hits in the first place.

Although I do wonder, are we positive that the mechanism by which defensive abilities will still proc from normal hits if you have resilience does not apply to offensive abilities as well? Has anyone tested for it? Shouldn't be too hard to do, rank 1 Lightning Bolt from a Shaman specced with Elemental Focus on a target with 400+ resilience should work.

ethug · 08/12/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Has anyone in the Beta verified the Flametongue weapon coefficient is still 10%? I seem to recall it gives 100 spell damage now if it's talented. Anyone mind verifying that? I'll like to do some number crunching but I want to make sure the data I'm using is accurate.

At 70 its giving me 52 spell dmg per weapon imbue. That's with 3/3 elemental weapons and 398 base spell dmg from ap.

WarTotem · 08/12/08, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Adrammelech

"I agree the shamans are getting unfairly picked on, though I also agree you've probably seen the last of Bloodlust rotations." - Source

Though nothing set in stone at this time, I personally had a feeling this was coming in some form or another.

I find that post confirming what we all already knew. Here is why:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Ideally around 2 of each class should be in a raid. It can't be 2.5 because most raids require 7-8 healers and not 5.

He basicly states that you should be grabbing 2 of each class, then an extra resto/holy spec of each class that can heal so you have 7-8 and then fill up that last spot depending what you already have. In other words, to the devs, specs don't matter, only a class in that role.
That basicly means that we have 4 tanks: Death Knights, Druids, Paladins & Warriors
We also have 4 healers: Druids, Paladins, Priests, Shamans
And we have 10 DPS: everyone
We can assume that in a typical raid we have up to 4 tanks, 8 healers and fill the rest(13) with DPS.

Now if you compare the amount of open slots for a certain role to the different possible classes for that role, you have:
100% for tanks
200% for healers (insane, right?)
130% for DPS
This is on a per-class base though.

Now consider that at the current state, Blood and Frost both seem viable trees for tanking for DKs, so they have ~2 tank specs. Priests have 2 healing specs (I see Grace bringing some nice utility to raids) and I will consider Holydins having only 1(BoL vs ShoL is situational and we don't know how WLK raids are going to be like). Assume that any spec for tank/healing can't fulfill a DPS spot (except for DKs & Feral Druids) and that although Blizzard has stated they want to step away from PvP-only trees, any 'pure' DPS has one at the moment. This is what you end up with:
Tanks: 5 specs = 80%
Healers: 5 specs = 160%
DPS: 18 possible specs = 72,22%
Now, considering that the DK is fairly new and you will not have 2 different DKs in your guild specced for tanking for quite some time after WLK has launched, as well that any raid instance requiring more healers rarely goes at the cost of tanks, I'ld say your current tanks are fairly safe. Your healers are also very safe in a way that there are more spots then healer specs, so they should be rather sure of their spot if they are the only one of their spec in the guild. But as for DPS goes there will be a large problem. This problem is the worse for Enhancement Shamans because of the specific DK buffs not stacking with ours. In the end, you will only need EITHER a DK or an Enh Shaman. An Enhancement Shaman does bring more buffs then just WF totem and UR, but he is not able to tank in emergency situations.

Now, certain guilds will not like Enhancement Shamans, some will love them and I assume the smart ones will just take whichever player does what is asked of him best. But as the current state of the Death Knights is, Enhancement Shamans are 'endangered' the most in WLK compared to the current situation. I am sure that if they gave 4% physical damage debuff and a raid-wide fixed AP buff that gave AP somewhere in between the base Battle Shout and the talented one, neither stacking with the Warrior versions, the Warrior uproar would be insane, with pages of threads screaming that their DPS specs have become entirely useless (and prob some "go tank"-conspiracy threads as well). Ofcourse, with Shamans being the least played class in tBC, it's not that stupid of devs to 'pick on shamans'.

PS: Is it just me, or do you guys see hardcore min/maxing guilds going back to mid-raid player swapping as well? Give shorter Enrage timers and bosses with less DPS tbh.

Hothgor · 08/12/08, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by WarTotem

I find that post confirming what we all already knew. Here is why:

He basicly states that you should be grabbing 2 of each class, then an extra resto/holy spec of each class that can heal so you have 7-8 and then fill up that last spot depending what you already have. In other words, to the devs, specs don't matter, only a class in that role.
That basicly means that we have 4 tanks: Death Knights, Druids, Paladins & Warriors
We also have 4 healers: Druids, Paladins, Priests, Shamans
And we have 10 DPS: everyone
We can assume that in a typical raid we have up to 4 tanks, 8 healers and fill the rest(13) with DPS.

Now if you compare the amount of open slots for a certain role to the different possible classes for that role, you have:
100% for tanks
200% for healers (insane, right?)
130% for DPS
This is on a per-class base though.

Now consider that at the current state, Blood and Frost both seem viable trees for tanking for DKs, so they have ~2 tank specs. Priests have 2 healing specs (I see Grace bringing some nice utility to raids) and I will consider Holydins having only 1(BoL vs ShoL is situational and we don't know how WLK raids are going to be like). Assume that any spec for tank/healing can't fulfill a DPS spot (except for DKs & Feral Druids) and that although Blizzard has stated they want to step away from PvP-only trees, any 'pure' DPS has one at the moment. This is what you end up with:
Tanks: 5 specs = 80%
Healers: 5 specs = 160%
DPS: 18 possible specs = 72,22%
Now, considering that the DK is fairly new and you will not have 2 different DKs in your guild specced for tanking for quite some time after WLK has launched, as well that any raid instance requiring more healers rarely goes at the cost of tanks, I'ld say your current tanks are fairly safe. Your healers are also very safe in a way that there are more spots then healer specs, so they should be rather sure of their spot if they are the only one of their spec in the guild. But as for DPS goes there will be a large problem. This problem is the worse for Enhancement Shamans because of the specific DK buffs not stacking with ours. In the end, you will only need EITHER a DK or an Enh Shaman. An Enhancement Shaman does bring more buffs then just WF totem and UR, but he is not able to tank in emergency situations.

Now, certain guilds will not like Enhancement Shamans, some will love them and I assume the smart ones will just take whichever player does what is asked of him best. But as the current state of the Death Knights is, Enhancement Shamans are 'endangered' the most in WLK compared to the current situation. I am sure that if they gave 4% physical damage debuff and a raid-wide fixed AP buff that gave AP somewhere in between the base Battle Shout and the talented one, neither stacking with the Warrior versions, the Warrior uproar would be insane, with pages of threads screaming that their DPS specs have become entirely useless (and prob some "go tank"-conspiracy threads as well). Ofcourse, with Shamans being the least played class in tBC, it's not that stupid of devs to 'pick on shamans'.

PS: Is it just me, or do you guys see hardcore min/maxing guilds going back to mid-raid player swapping as well? Give shorter Enrage timers and bosses with less DPS tbh.

Once again guys, I need to point out that our raiding spot is secure for several reasons:

1. Windfury Totem. Unlike the DK Icy Touch ability, our Windfury Totem haste affects both melee AND ranged attacks. We can assume, based on the blue posts, that we will have two hunters in the raid. They will want that extra 20% haste as it will be an amazing damage increase for them.

2. We still have Bloodlust/Heroism. This is an amazing ability and there is NOTHING like it for ANY other class in the game.

3. We have SoE/GoA totem. As was already discussed, Resto/Elemental shamans have too many points to put in their talent trees to pickup the extra 15% enhancement on this ability. Even if its only 25 str/agility, thats still 125 str/agility the group/raid did not have before.

4. Finally, NO ONE KNOWS what Spirit Wolves will do. They have hinted in the past that Spirit Wolves will have a stun, a snare and a RAID INCREASING DAMAGE ABILITY 'warrior style?'.

Everything else everyone has said is just pure speculation. As a high end raider myself, I feel obligated to point out that we, as enhancement shamans, generally have TWO spots guaranteed for us. One for the melee group, and one for the tanking group. They are 'picking on us' because no other melee class WITH THE SAME SPEC gets two guaranteed spots in a raid. Come WotLK, we will only be required to fill the ONE spot. Any guild/raid leader would be insane to completely eliminate the enhancement shaman position in the raid. Stop speculating/worrying about your positions!!

Wolfhand · 08/12/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by ethug

At 70 its giving me 52 spell dmg per weapon imbue. That's with 3/3 elemental weapons and 398 base spell dmg from ap.

I'd also like to know the answer to his first question. How much is the base damage increasing with spellpower?

Could you pop a spellpower(or AP since you're enhancement) trinket and see what the difference per-swing is? Or alternatively just mix-match gear until there is a 100 spellpower difference and test the difference in FT damage that way.

Rouncer · 08/12/08, 4:28 PM

Currently Flametongue is a 2 part imbue.

1. Functions exactly the same as the current imbue by adding Fire damage on every melee strike. This part scales with the caster's spell power.

2. Adds 52 spell power to the caster for each weapon imbued with Flametongue. This part does not scale with the caster's spell power but it does stack with itself if you have 2 weapons imbued with Flametongue.

As to what the imbue will look like when they finish with it is anyone's guess but that is the current state of the imbue on the Beta.

dedmonwakeen · 08/12/08, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Currently Flametongue is a 2 part imbue.

1. Functions exactly the same as the current imbue by adding Fire damage on every melee strike. This part scales with the caster's spell power.

Is the scaling portion of this effect the same in Beta as it is in Live?

Sydane · 08/12/08, 5:29 PM

As soon as you say "my spec's raid slot is safe," you are just asking to be nerfed and disappointed. It seems quite clear they don't want any spec to be guaranteed a raid slot by buffs alone. I don't know if they can accomplish that, but what is more important is the idea that if an enhancement shaman isn't being used for utility, can he then increase his own personal dps enough to compensate.

For example, if you don't have to drop Windfury because a DK is already covering that buff, you should be able to drop something else that will buff your personal dps but not the raid. This is what warlock balance is aiming for, where you are competitive dps if you have a dps curse up and/or a non-support spec, otherwise you provide utility and do less dps. It should never be "we'll bring a DK or Enh but not both" it should be "we can bring either, or both, but at least one of them."

Another option would be to tune the top of the tree better so you have choices between personal dps and raid utility, thus allowing the min/max crowd to have the best of all worlds.

Rouncer · 08/12/08, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Is the scaling portion of this effect the same in Beta as it is in Live?

as far as I can tell, yup, I'll try to check it more this evening to be sure.

Gurth999 · 08/12/08, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Once again guys, I need to point out that our raiding spot is secure for several reasons:

1. Windfury Totem. Unlike the DK Icy Touch ability, our Windfury Totem haste affects both melee AND ranged attacks. We can assume, based on the blue posts, that we will have two hunters in the raid. They will want that extra 20% haste as it will be an amazing damage increase for them.

2. We still have Bloodlust/Heroism. This is an amazing ability and there is NOTHING like it for ANY other class in the game.

3. We have SoE/GoA totem. As was already discussed, Resto/Elemental shamans have too many points to put in their talent trees to pickup the extra 15% enhancement on this ability. Even if its only 25 str/agility, thats still 125 str/agility the group/raid did not have before.

4. Finally, NO ONE KNOWS what Spirit Wolves will do. They have hinted in the past that Spirit Wolves will have a stun, a snare and a RAID INCREASING DAMAGE ABILITY 'warrior style?'.

Everything else everyone has said is just pure speculation. As a high end raider myself, I feel obligated to point out that we, as enhancement shamans, generally have TWO spots guaranteed for us. One for the melee group, and one for the tanking group. They are 'picking on us' because no other melee class WITH THE SAME SPEC gets two guaranteed spots in a raid. Come WotLK, we will only be required to fill the ONE spot. Any guild/raid leader would be insane to completely eliminate the enhancement shaman position in the raid. Stop speculating/worrying about your positions!!

There's a couple of things. A resto shaman can still drop WF totem. So that's 4% haste for the 2 hunters brought by the enhance shaman. Enhanced SoE isn't exactly strong, but the sacrifice for 1 resto shaman to pick up enhancing totems is far from huge either (it's at worst 6% int). Also it has been hinted that bloodlust being chain cast is being done away with.

DK's aren't limited to those buffs as their utility either, especially if they remove the presence requirement from their aura's as suggested. I've never been worried about a raid slot while playing any class or spec, but I do think it is disturbing that the developers are going out of their way to create a distinct lack of synergy between certain classes. While I can see what they are trying to do making DK wanted in raids it shouldn't be directly at the expense of another class and or spec as the problems it creates can become amplified outside of a raid environment.

Perhaps they could make the buffs stack at a reduced benefit. 10% bonus AP for UR or Abomination's Might, but 15% or something with both.

P51mus · 08/12/08, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

2. We still have Bloodlust/Heroism. This is an amazing ability and there is NOTHING like it for ANY other class in the game.

I think he was mostly assuming, considering the quote from a blue about the end of bloodlust rotations, that the bloodlust/heroism would get covered by a resto shaman. So it's more how much extra benefit do you really bring in a group with a DK and a resto shaman. That's what I think he's going for, anyway.

And maybe the resto shaman has a build like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (disclaimer: I'm not really sure how good a build this is, as I don't have experience raid healing). At this point the extra benefit of the enhancement shaman extends to 4% more haste from windfury totem (or 4% extra haste, and 5% spell haste, considering the resto could drop wrath of air instead)

Hothgor · 08/12/08, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gurth999

There's a couple of things. A resto shaman can still drop WF totem. So that's 4% haste for the 2 hunters brought by the enhance shaman. Enhanced SoE isn't exactly strong, but the sacrifice for 1 resto shaman to pick up enhancing totems is far from huge either (it's at worst 6% int). Also it has been hinted that bloodlust being chain cast is being done away with.

Are you serious Gurth? You have had some very strange arguments 'being able to get 12 shocks +7.5 SS/LvB every minute indefinitely is one of them - BTW its 11.25 and 7.5 each', but this one is out there!

Look at high end raiding today. Most high end guilds REQUIRE their members to be leather working JUST for the 80 haste drums. That's 5% haste IF everyone in the group has them. When we are talking about raids min/maxing, its ridiculous that you would suggest that these guilds will now chose to NOT give every melee and hunter 20% haste, and instead opt to give their ranged a gimmick 16% haste totem with a pat on the back.

And even if a Resto Shaman runs with a spec like the one posted above, I'm all for it. That's 3 more talent points that I can place into Elemental and Improved Shields to increase my personal DPS.

Originally Posted by Gurth999

DK's aren't limited to those buffs as their utility either, especially if they remove the presence requirement from their aura's as suggested. I've never been worried about a raid slot while playing any class or spec, but I do think it is disturbing that the developers are going out of their way to create a distinct lack of synergy between certain classes. While I can see what they are trying to do making DK wanted in raids it shouldn't be directly at the expense of another class and or spec as the problems it creates can become amplified outside of a raid environment.

The only raid enhancing buffs a DK gives that competes with our own is the 10% attack power and 20% melee haste abilities. These are 25+ points into two different trees. Its highly unlikely they will ask someone to gimp their spec to get BOTH of these abilities just because they want to replace you.

Again, they are NOT trying to make a DK be a usurper to our spec. They are trying to break apart the requirement that every raid bring two enhancement shamans. If you have been raiding with your guild through all of TBC and are a skilled player, you wont be getting replaced by a Death Knight on a whim!

Originally Posted by Gurth999

Perhaps they could make the buffs stack at a reduced benefit. 10% bonus AP for UR or Abomination's Might, but 15% or something with both.

You would have to bring TWO Death Knights to fill the role of ONE enhancement shaman. I find it amazing that people here actually believe that any sane Guild or Raid Leader would compound their raiding matrix by axing one spec with one class in favor of bringing two others. And last but not least:

THEY HAVE NOT EVEN DONE THE SHAMAN POLISH!!!!

No one knows what our final 'look and feel' will be, not even those of us in the Beta. They haven't implemented or fixed half of our new abilities, and they are changing Death Knights practically every week!!

Gurth999 · 08/12/08, 7:39 PM

Bringing an enhance shaman specifically for 4% ranged haste for 2 hunters is the only thing 'out there'. You'd get way more dps bringing 2 hunters and a rogue, or 2 hunters and a warlock or even just 3 hunters if you're actually serious about min maxing dps.

I'm talking about the DK and Shaman being made such that their value is reduced when they are together. This doesn't only affect raid environments. I think there are better ways to handle it than completely non stacking buffs.

Are you suggesting that there will never be 2 death knights in a raid? Why should it be that any raid that decides to have 2 Deathknights it makes an enhance shaman's buff value questionable? I would prefer more options with respect to raid make up rather than less. I don't think they should be directly targeting any specific classes and imposing their viability based on non-stackable raid buffs.

Obviously they are not done yet, but waiting until they are done to offer suggestions and alternatives (when I think they are moving in the wrong direction) is far from a good idea.

WarTotem · 08/12/08, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Once again guys, I need to point out that our raiding spot is secure for several reasons:

1. Windfury Totem. Unlike the DK Icy Touch ability, our Windfury Totem haste affects both melee AND ranged attacks. We can assume, based on the blue posts, that we will have two hunters in the raid. They will want that extra 20% haste as it will be an amazing damage increase for them.

2. We still have Bloodlust/Heroism. This is an amazing ability and there is NOTHING like it for ANY other class in the game.

3. We have SoE/GoA totem. As was already discussed, Resto/Elemental shamans have too many points to put in their talent trees to pickup the extra 15% enhancement on this ability. Even if its only 25 str/agility, thats still 125 str/agility the group/raid did not have before.

4. Finally, NO ONE KNOWS what Spirit Wolves will do. They have hinted in the past that Spirit Wolves will have a stun, a snare and a RAID INCREASING DAMAGE ABILITY 'warrior style?'.

Everything else everyone has said is just pure speculation. As a high end raider myself, I feel obligated to point out that we, as enhancement shamans, generally have TWO spots guaranteed for us. One for the melee group, and one for the tanking group. They are 'picking on us' because no other melee class WITH THE SAME SPEC gets two guaranteed spots in a raid. Come WotLK, we will only be required to fill the ONE spot. Any guild/raid leader would be insane to completely eliminate the enhancement shaman position in the raid. Stop speculating/worrying about your positions!!

1. Any Shaman can drop WF totem. The specific talent for WF currently states it only boosts melee haste as well. On top of that, untalented WF will, together with quiver, provide enough haste to get Steady exactly to a 1.5s cast, which is it's cap. To make matter worse; estimates show that auto-shot will only be around 25% of their personal DPS. Even if WF talent is working correctly for ranged, it is only ~1% DPS extra for 2 people in your group, usually 1 being Surv as utility anyway. (And he actually said 'ideally', which also included having only 2 Priests in a raid group)

2. Hysteria is a good second though. 20% dmg increase (thus also working for instants, unlike BL/Goatism) for 30 seconds. One person every 2 min vs 5 every 10 is the same uptime, the only cost is 30% health lost, which they can heal with Blood Aura. In the rare case this will matter: it's also unlikely it will be dispellable, so bosses with dispel mechanics will favor DKs.

3. True, and we also bring another flametongue and a healing stream or mana spring totem. Gurth is correct in this case that a Resto sham could pick it up, although I doubt a lot of Resto shamans will though, as it does reduce both +healing and crit (and mana return from %pool abilities such as mana tide totem)

4. Stuns and Snares are for PvP. Raid damage increasing ability I'ld love to see though, but if it doesn't stack with other class abilities like Battle Shout I'm gonna be very dissappointed.

@Hotghor:
For the reason you posted alone they are nerfing Drums to only receive 1 every 2 minutes. And haste is currently up there on the useless list together with spirit and strength for hunters. As said above, 4% additional haste for your hunters (if it will work even) is the gimmick, it provides them around 1% DPS for their personal DPS only.

The problem with non-stacking buffs is that it forces you to chose. An Enhancement Shaman in min-maxing guild will actually have to respec OUT of his buffs to be the best he can for a raid, while the next day he would have to respec back for tries on the same boss just because the DK had to go work or 'had gf aggro'. As an example, assume this is the spec your DK has (and that it's actually a viable raiding build

). If he can make it, you will need to spec something like this, if not, you are going back to the cookie cutter buff build. On the other hand, he will have to respec to something like this everytime you can't make it. In the end, it supports min/maxing for hardcore guilds, while other, more relaxed(or mediumcore) guilds will probably end up losing either DK or Shaman personal DPS because they both bring the same buff. With raid instances being opened for smaller guilds, it feels somehow counter-intuitive as to what Blizzard seems to want to reach.

Aezoc · 08/12/08, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gurth999

Bringing an enhance shaman specifically for 4% ranged haste for 2 hunters is the only thing 'out there'.

I think this is a little disingenuous. Yes, that's all you gain if you compare the single enhancement shaman to both a resto shaman and a properly specced DK. But you've also used an extra raid spot. For the single raid slot the enhancement shaman takes up, you can't get those buffs with anything else. You can get the bloodlust and weaker totems, but lose UR... or you can get UR/WF equivalents, but no SoE or Bloodlust. And at a glance, I think that DK will bring less personal DPS as well.

So... if your point is to argue that a DK + resto shaman together shouldn't be able to replace an enhancement shaman, I've got to disagree with that. Nobody's buffs should be that irreplaceable.

Hothgor · 08/12/08, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by WarTotem

1. Any Shaman can drop WF totem. The specific talent for WF currently states it only boosts melee haste as well. On top of that, untalented WF will, together with quiver, provide enough haste to get Steady exactly to a 1.5s cast, which is it's cap. To make matter worse; estimates show that auto-shot will only be around 25% of their personal DPS. Even if WF talent is working correctly for ranged, it is only ~1% DPS extra for 2 people in your group, usually 1 being Surv as utility anyway. (And he actually said 'ideally', which also included having only 2 Priests in a raid group)

2. Hysteria is a good second though. 20% dmg increase (thus also working for instants, unlike BL/Goatism) for 30 seconds. One person every 2 min vs 5 every 10 is the same uptime, the only cost is 30% health lost, which they can heal with Blood Aura. In the rare case this will matter: it's also unlikely it will be dispellable, so bosses with dispel mechanics will favor DKs.

3. True, and we also bring another flametongue and a healing stream or mana spring totem. Gurth is correct in this case that a Resto sham could pick it up, although I doubt a lot of Resto shamans will though, as it does reduce both +healing and crit (and mana return from %pool abilities such as mana tide totem)

4. Stuns and Snares are for PvP. Raid damage increasing ability I'ld love to see though, but if it doesn't stack with other class abilities like Battle Shout I'm gonna be very dissappointed.

@Hotghor:
For the reason you posted alone they are nerfing Drums to only receive 1 every 2 minutes. And haste is currently up there on the useless list together with spirit and strength for hunters. As said above, 4% additional haste for your hunters (if it will work even) is the gimmick, it provides them around 1% DPS for their personal DPS only.

The problem with non-stacking buffs is that it forces you to chose. An Enhancement Shaman in min-maxing guild will actually have to respec OUT of his buffs to be the best he can for a raid, while the next day he would have to respec back for tries on the same boss just because the DK had to go work or 'had gf aggro'. As an example, assume this is the spec your DK has (and that it's actually a viable raiding build

). If he can make it, you will need to spec something like this, if not, you are going back to the cookie cutter buff build. On the other hand, he will have to respec to something like this everytime you can't make it. In the end, it supports min/maxing for hardcore guilds, while other, more relaxed(or mediumcore) guilds will probably end up losing either DK or Shaman personal DPS because they both bring the same buff. With raid instances being opened for smaller guilds, it feels somehow counter-intuitive as to what Blizzard seems to want to reach.

So when are you both going to announce your re-rolling as a Death knight? You two seem to have things pretty much worked out and are masterfully feeding the 'our spec is dead' rants that are now going around. Heck, maybe I should stop playing my Enhancement shaman right now because some some other class is going to need TWO spots to replace my single spot?

Give me a break guys.

You still don't know what the raid buff Spirit Wolves ability is going to be. I can't believe this discussion is actually happening on this thread :laughs:

Edit: Windfury Totem - Spell - World of Warcraft

Tooltip says Melee AND Ranged haste by 16%. The talent says it increases the hasted granted by 2% per point. No where does it say that its 2% melee haste alone. 4% ranged haste beats out the DK benefits, simply due to the fact that all of their abilities are weaker clones of ours that require two specs to gain.

Hysteria: Hysteria - Spell - World of Warcraft
Heroism: Heroism - Spell - World of Warcraft

Note how ours is 30% haste for melee, ranged AND spells, while theirs is only for physical attacks. What do you think is better? Not only that, but ours lasts 10 seconds LONGER. Thats 33% more uptime than they can get, not equal!!

So here is what we have. DKs have an equal ap buff compared to ours, weaker haste, weaker 'goatism', no raid totems...yet they are going to 'replace' us? Get real people.

Gurth999 · 08/12/08, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I think this is a little disingenuous. Yes, that's all you gain if you compare the single enhancement shaman to both a resto shaman and a properly specced DK. But you've also used an extra raid spot. For the single raid slot the enhancement shaman takes up, you can't get those buffs with anything else. You can get the bloodlust and weaker totems, but lose UR... or you can get UR/WF equivalents, but no SoE or Bloodlust. And at a glance, I think that DK will bring less personal DPS as well.

So... if your point is to argue that a DK + resto shaman together shouldn't be able to replace an enhancement shaman, I've got to disagree with that. Nobody's buffs should be that irreplaceable.

Just use a resto shaman that already got a raid spot for mana tide, and chain heal, you don't have to bring an extra one, you just need 2 to cover the totems for the most part. And that's fine. I don't think 3 of any class should be required.

No, my point isn't that 2 DK's shouldn't be able to replace as an enhance shaman, its that they specifically reduce each others value if the other exists in the raid. If a raid is looking to fill a final spot and they already have an enhance shaman, the DKs raid buff ability is marginalized and vice versa. A raid leader is given somewhat of an either/or choice which really isn't fair to either class/spec (same with malediction warlock and unholy DK). I'd rather see them use a different mechanic than non-stacking buffs to add raid value to the DK.