Orlgin

Two things:

1) The thread on Wind Serpents is mainly about Stormstrike and how much damage casters get from the charges. It is then compared to the DPS of a Wind Serpent. It's a current thread (not WoLK). But much of the content of the thread covers the formulas that you can apply for the purposes of testing Static Shock. I mentioned it for people who want to research it as it will make their work a lot easier.

2) The procs don't proc other things argument isn't sound. For example, it's a fact that FT weapon crits can proc The Lightning Capacitor. It's likely Static Shock just triggers off damage that is attributed to you. If this is indeed the case, Windfury weapon would send two damage messages which would then trigger the effect. If this is the case, it would also proc off Flametongue Weapon. The only way to know for sure is to test it.

Tooltip Information for Static Shock: You have a 6% chance to hit your target with a Lightning Shield orb charge when you deal damage, and increases the number of charges of your Lightning Shield by 3.

Note that earlier in the thread, it was noticed that Static Shock hits can trigger Static Shock. This also counters procs don't trigger procs theory. There is a screenshot of it if you want to study it.

 

Rouncer

Actually thats wrong, static shock can proc from reactionary lightning orb strikes (when you get hit) not that it can proc off itself.

 

IMB111

I think the new Rogue-talent deadly brew will eat up a lot of SS-Charges, if Mutilate will be a good raid built. In this case we don't need to worry about stealing charges with Static shock... or you have to convince the rogues to skip the talent.

 

WarTotem

@Orlgin:
If I have the time, I'll try out a Flametongue + [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], which doesn't proc on WF, but should proc on FT if it is classed as a damage bonus on swings, rather then a 'proc'. The card itself is a proc though

 

Cronax

I highly doubt Blizz will want to suddenly change the raiding spec for rogues from combat to mutilate. Blizz so far has been following a trend of making other specs viable, but have not changed the fact that he specs they see as main specs are favoured. sure, you might have some rogues who are stubborn enough to want to raid with a mutilate build, there are even stubborn rogues who want to raid with a subtlety build, but unless blizz suddenly changes things around I don't think we should account for a suboptimal spec in a thread that attempts to find the most optimal situation...just my 2cts though..

 

Stopokingme

Next thing you'll tell me Shamanistic Rage and Maelstrom Weapons aren't procs. Or weapon enchants and trinkets for that matter.

 

Greven_

Windfury Totem will now be a flat % haste buff, instead of a weapon imbue. We'll be definitely seeing IP, even from Combat rogues, who will (maybe? probably?) run IP/DP. They're probably not changing anything before they start to actually test the raids on beta, though.
Just remember they're changing the LB spell damage coefficient due to the presence of "more damage buffs", so they MIGHT be counting on Stormstrike and will not allow the rogues to eat our charges in 0.00001 secs... at least I hope so!

 

Levva

Forgive me if I have misunderstood some of the changes. I understand that Blizzard are merging many of the individual stats so

1) melee crit rating and spell crit rating become crit rating
2) melee hit rating and spell hit rating become hit rating
3) +fire dmg, +arcane dmg, +nature dmg etc, with +spell dmg & +healing all become +spellpower

etc

With these changes this will ofc dramatically affect itemisation and mean that for hybrids we get quite a few benefits from merging of crit & hit in particular. Downside is competing for more gear as there will be less distinction between "hunter" gear and "shaman" gear. My understanding is that this is to reduce gear drops that no-one wants because that class/spec isn't present in raid.

My question is about Intellect. With the talent changes we are getting AP from Intellect with the nerf to Strength we lose AP from Strength (down to 1:1 Str:AP) and Str becomes more of a tanking stat (increased blocks).

At present Int gives spell crit. With merged melee crit & spell crit now only being pure crit rating. Will intellect give us a boost to our crits from weapon dmg? If so, counting in the other talent changes, it becomes our new best friend?

 

IMB111

intellect only provides spell crit and agility only melee crit

int = increased spell crit, 1 ap (mana)
agi = increased melee crit, 1 ap (dodge, armor)
so agi is our new best friend

 

Toots Hepcat

It's more than that -- 40 AGI = 1% melee crit. 60 INT = 1% spell crit. So you have to stack a whole lot more int for the same percentage benefit, and then it enhances a smaller portion of our DPS.

But really? We're going to be looking for AP. 1 AP costs half as much per iLvL as 1 STR/AGI/INT, and more overall benefit. Armor penetration is a very economical stat too, 1 armor pen costs 1/7 what 1 STR costs.

Crit rating is going to be phenomenal too, and I wouldn't doubt if hit rating outscored STR/AGI/INT too. Haste rating will be okay; not worth as much as the other guys, though if Blizzard doesn't remove the on-hit effect of Flametongue a fast, hasty Flametongue OH build could be very viable.

At the end of the day though, it's going to be about balance. Stat weights will be as dynamic as they are now, perhaps moreso. Knowing your weight after each upgrade will be the best way to maximize the gear-up process.

 

Whirling_Dervish

If the new Haste Rating gets our GCD down to 1 second, then a certain amount of Haste will be invaluable for weaving our new spell rotation without cooldowns overlapping.

Edit: Another facet of Haste Rating I've been pondering, considering the new Wrath of Air Totem adding 5% spell haste: If we are able to stack enough haste to equal 15% spell haste, would we be able to instant cast Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst at 4 stacks of Maelstrom Weapon? I realize this may be a completely unreasonable amount of haste given the other stats we need, but the prospect of throwing in an instant Lightning Bolt between Lava Burst cooldowns would mean quite a bit more DPS (and mana consumption, of course).

 

Houze

Combat ratings for level 80 has been revealed in beta build 8681 (so they might not be final yet) and then there still where separate physical and magical ratings, if this only was separate scaling for ratings or if they where completely different I don't know.

Have a look at:
Combat Ratings at level 80

Overall are most ratings doubled in amount to get 1%, some needs a bit more then the doubled amount, like crit rating that at level 70 s 22.08 rating = 1% crit, is at level 80 45.9 rating = 1%.

If the ratings are merged, so they contribute to both physical and magical abilities shamans will get some extra scaling from those and I think that is a necessary change to use our new abilities like mealstrom weapon and similar as it's far to expensive to itemize for abilities used in only a part of our dps.

As we don't get hit-capped in WotLK by talents the first 3% hit from items should be a huge dps-boost compared to all other stats, question is if futher hit-rating will make any larger impact, only affecting our white hits and spells?

As combat ratings are doubled to get 1%, and the agility/strength switch I asume shamans will get the same crit from agility as hunters that is 40 agility = 1% crit on level 70 should be something like 80 agility = 1% crit at level 80.

Crit-rating should be rather nice if it gives both physical and magical crits but will it be the "best" stat (after hit-caps)? or will for example agility be supreme?

 

Toots Hepcat

To reduce the GCD to 1s, you'd need 50% spell haste. At 70, that's 790 haste rating, with the equivalent iLvL cost of 1580 AP. You'd be hitting much faster, but not as hard, DPS would suffer greatly. Ain't happening, stop mentioning it, not that valuable even if it did work.

Spell haste and MW work a little differently. Haste lets you cast spells faster; MW cuts the time it takes to cast them. A subtle difference, but important. If you cast something 100% faster, you're actually only reducing the time by half -- eg a 2s cast now takes 1s. But if you cut the TIME it takes by 100%, it takes no time at all. Vis a vis:

Hasted speed: original speed / (1 + (haste percentage / 100))

MW speed: original speed * ((20 * MW Stack) / 100)

See the difference? You can never reduce a spell to instant cast with haste. You can reduce it thusly with MW. And even if a spell was "so fast as to be like instant," you'd still reset the swing timer, and it would suck.

Cast MW at 5 stacks or don't cast it at all.

 

Pitbuller

I would be happy if they make maelstorm weapon stack(1-4) cast act like steady shot in live or Hammer of wrath in beta. Then weapons can't hit while casting but also casting don't reset swing timer. Easier rotations but not overpower in pvp or pve aspect.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Toots Hepcat

Pitbuller - I contend that this type of thing might be a bit harder to do with two weapons swinging in autoattack than one.

I also contend that any rotation that has a component that might be just a GCD, or it might be .4s-.8s AND a GCD, is not an easier rotation.

Besides -- even losing .4s of melee and windfury damage is a pretty big deal, if it happens frequently.

 

Sydane

To augment the Maelstrom + Haste comment, Haste is always added last. So even if Haste would take 1 second off your cast 2 second cast, and you have maelstrom reduce it by 1.5 seconds, it will just reduce that remaining 0.5 second by half, resulting in a 0.25 second cast. I see this as a warlock a lot because Fel Domination reduces your summon by 5.5 seconds (to half a second from the base of 6 seconds). I have enough haste that my summon cast time is well below 5.5 seconds, however popping FelDom doesn't make summoning instant, much to my chagrin.

 

Orlgin

Here is the formula for Hasted Weapon Speed

Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste1 %)) * (1+(Haste2 %)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.7)) )

An example: 1.4 speed / ((1 + 0.3) * (1 + 0.2)) * (1 + (((157 Haste Rating at level 70/100)/15.7))) is the number you would get from a 1.4 speed weapon with Flurry, Windfury Totem, and 10% haste from items.

This results in the attack speed of 0.82. This generates 1.22 attacks per second for this weapon.

There are calculators available although some of them can't handle the number of haste effects that we can utilize (Flurry, Windfury Totem, Bloodlust/Heroism, Drums, Haste Rating, Haste Potion, Dragonspine Trophy effect, etc.)

It will take 32.79 Haste Rating to get 1% Haste at Level 80. If you're doing it for level 80, sub the 32.79 for 15.7.

To achieve a 1 sec GCD, it would take 1640 Haste Rating. (not happening)

 

Pitbuller

GCD starts when you start casting the spell so LvB/CL(2s) and even Lb(2.5s) go under GCD(1.2s and 1.5s) with only stack of two.

With two 2.6s weapon hasted to 1.5s swing timer 0.4s cast which act like hammer of wrath and startint cast randomly. Avarage swing timer delay is (1.1s/1.5s)% = 0s and (0.4s/1.5s)% = 0s-0.4s(linear curve).
73.33% swing timers do not delay.
26.66% swing timers dealy is avarage 0.2s
These adds up to 0.0533s avarage dealy.

Math with 0.8s cast time.
46.66% swing timers do not delay.
53.33% swing timer delay is avarage 0.4s
Adds up to 0.2133s avarage delay.

With 1.2s cast time
20% swing timers do not delay.
80% swing timer delay is avarage 0.6s
Adds up to .48s avarage delay.

1.5s cast time.
100% of time delay is avarage 0.75s


If comparing those figures to warrior slam which reset swing timer and avarage cast time is 0.5s + lag + brain lag. Adds up to 0.7s-0.9s cast. Then we compare damage what slam do against LvB/Lb/Cl we can asssume that Maelstorm weapon would beusable even without full stack if swing timer reset go away totally.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

WarTotem

That was what I was hinting at. Rogues will be able to use Instant Poison on their MH weapon which will be hitting rather often with the new WF totem.

@Pitbuller:
You can't compare <5-stack MW to Slam, because Warriors don't randomly cast slam, they time it. There is a reason why 2H DPS Warriors go for a weapon as slow as possible, it's to minimize lag on Auto/Slam combos. This is very similar to Steady Shot for hunters btw.
It's almost impossible to use a casted ability while dual wielding without losing melee DPS. Even without resetting swing timers. Besides, that one attack that you delayed could've very well been a crit, giving you your 5th stack and making it instant anyway. With most of our DPS coming from white swings I don't think it's a very good idea to delay that, regardless of what small benefit you be trying to squeeze out of it.

About stats: (napkin math)
Assuming BoKings, Agility currently gives about as much crit as crit rating does.
With WLK mechanics, 40 Agility will give 40 AP and an equivalent of 22 (melee) crit rating. Stat-wise 40 AP = 20 Agi and 22 crit rating = 22 Agi, total of 42 Agility, 5% better. With BoK this becomes 15%, which should be worth the loss in spell crit.
On the other hand, 60 Intellect will give 60 AP and the same 22 crit rating applied to spells. Stat-wise that's a total of 52 Intellect, an efficiency of ~87%, at most you can get this to 95% with BoK, still not counting in the fact that crit rating works for both. (Partially made up with ED until you have LvB & 5/5 MW though)
But here is the catch: Intellect -> spell crit rate probably won't change in the same way as crit rating will. After all, you needed 60 Int at level 60 and 80 at level 70. In the same line you would assume somewhere around 100 Intellect, which would make it come closer to an efficiency of 95/105% with/without BoK. The bonus here is that you increase your mana pool, thus the amount of regen Shammervate can do.

In the end, you we probably be looking at:

expertise > hit > agi/int (>) AP/crit > haste
depending on how much AP & crit you will end up with when you ding 80.


If you want to orient your gear more to one way, you will be looking at:
more hits: expertise > hit rating
more AP: AP > agi/int
more crit: crit rating > agi > int
more haste: haste rating > crit for Flurry

 

dedmonwakeen

In my sims, I use the following priority list:

stormstrike
lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1
lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5
searing_totem
strength_of_earth_totem
windfury_totem
shamanistic_rage
flame_shock
earth_shock
lightning_shield

This means that Lava Burst will only get used if Maelstrom Weapon is stacked at 5, Flame Shock is present, and only 1 tick of FS will be consumed.

Lightning Bolt will get used when Maelstrom Weapon is stacked at 5, but the FS criteria are not met.

When I set "maelstrom=4" in the LvB conditional, it represents a 3% dps loss.
When I set "maelstrom=4" in both LvB and LB conditionals, it represents a 10% dps loss.

My virtual shaman is running with Slow(WF)/Fast(FT) and no care is taken to time LvB/LB with the Slow weapon strikes.

EDIT: It has been noted that the AP used in my sims is on the low side...... so the fall-off in more representative gear could be even larger.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Pitbuller

Benefit of using it when you have free GCD is also dps boost. If you wait for 5stack then there might be SS or shock cd up and then you lose dps potential anyway.

With my gear my simmed dps is 1773. Auto attack + WF(only auto attac procced) dps is 1262.

Delaying swing timers by 1s is loss of 1262damage.
4stack maelstorm delay avarage of 0.0533s which contribute 67damage.
3stack maelstorm delay avarage of 0.2133s which contribute 269damage.
2stack maelstorm delay avarage of 0.48s which contribute 606damage.
These numbers is so slow that best benefit would fill almoust every free GCD with some maelstorm cast.


Reason why I think this is how blizz will code Maelstorm anti resetting is Hammer of wrath coding. There isn't that much difference beetween 2H or DW behavior. This is just easiest solution and maelstorm weapon isn't the number one in priority list to them.


Edit: Dedmonwakeen do your sim (reset/delay/pause)? swing timer when casting with 4 stack mael?

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

dedmonwakeen

This is the order of events:
(1) Non-instant cast begins
(2) Both swings are canceled
(3) Non-instant cast ends
(4) Lag
(5) auto_attack action is executed which starts both swing timers

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

WarTotem

Shouldn't that be Slow(WF)/Fast(FT)?

 

dedmonwakeen

Yes, that is correct. My apologies for the confusion. I've fixed the post.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Staticus

And gobbling up our SS charges before the ele's can get more than a shot or two in.