Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 61

Fearlezz · 09/02/08, 4:22 PM

Will do after SWP raid, guess I missclicked some calculator buttons...

Gehenna · 09/02/08, 4:24 PM

I agree with Pitbuller.

In addition, you counted the 6% hit from DW spec as +6% hit to spell i think. Although I'm not sure if that is how this talent works on beta, I doubt it is intended to give the shaman 6 spell hit as well; however, this is only an educated guess.

Fearlezz · 09/02/08, 4:45 PM

I'm pretty sure I didn't add the +6% melee hit from talents, calculated it just based on my hit rating (148 in current gear). It's even separated in the table. Expertise rating is 83 (21 expertise) with my current gear. Rest I'll look into.

Toots Hepcat · 09/02/08, 5:21 PM

Whereas I am pleased by the relatively low value of hit rating in the aforementioned simulation, the value for crit rating has me wondering.

If memory serves, this simulator uses a priority system that tends to cast a lot of lightning bolts. Have you tried a sim that only casts Lavaburst?

Only casting LB would inflate the value of crit, and only casting LvB should deflate it. I worry that the priority system can't predict the sideline benefit from LvB and its feedback into ED, because any time MW stacks before the CD is up it'll choose lightning.

It still makes sense that crit rating will be among our highest value stats, in part because it feeds so many of our procs, but mostly because it's the only stat that effects more or less 100% of our damage in a linear fashion with no cap.

If you think about it:

Crit: Affects all damage except Static Shock at roughly the same rate
AP: Affects all damage, but affects spells 30% as much
Hit: Affects all damage until 9%, then just melee and spells until 17% spell hit, then just affects melee.
Haste: Affects melee, flamestrike and Static Shock, has a small effect on MW and an even smaller affect on WF.
Armor Penetration: Affects all melee damage (Budget is very cheap)
AGI: Affects all melee, and via AP, all damage. (Budget it is twice AP though)
INT: A little better than AP due to AK and Kings (Budget it is twice AP though)
STR: A little better than AP due to Kinds(Budget it is twice AP though)

As has been mentioned, the real danger of trading melee for spell damage is the same as the trade off between Elemental and Resto today: spell damage has no threat reduction. A threat reduction talent is a godsend here, but at some point you would be better off casting fewer spells and doing more melee damage than making every umpteenth cast a Wind Shock.

Fearlezz · 09/02/08, 5:46 PM

I don't use LvB in the simulation, just LB since I wrote I made it for the 3.0 SWP raiding, not leveling since the values deflate with level and make gearing for leveling not viable.

Toots Hepcat · 09/02/08, 5:50 PM

Ah understood. Well, the last time I ran Yo's with ED and joined ratings, I came up with a value around 2.15 for Crit. That it would increase beyond that is a no brainer.

Cross your fingers that we get some kind of gem refund, because crit gems are gonna be the bomb.

• Raut · 09/02/08, 6:27 PM

Hm. I'm not that sure expertise would render such a high value given a mix of T6 and SW gear. When you reach the cap, the exp EP value drops to zero. I guess it would keep most of it's high value till you reach the cap, but I'm not sure.

Crit inflating would just be due to your total crit going down and your AP up. Dropping below 30% unbuffed given that much AP will rocket it.

Look forward to new runs. Current one shows less insane predictions than earlier shown.

Edit: Don't count on it, Toots. I'm currently at 220 badges and that's not enough yet.

Fearlezz · 09/02/08, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Raut

Edit: Don't count on it, Toots. I'm currently at 220 badges and that's not enough yet.

I'm glad I still got around 40o+ left even after getting all the resto and ele gear I could get, will allow me quite a smooth regem. Kept them around just in case they're transferable to alts after WOTLK to boost my DK leveling, guess it wasn't a totally wrong decision to keep them ^^

Rouncer · 09/02/08, 7:27 PM

One saving grace may be the Honor and Arena gems. Arena gems (800 points) have never been unique-on-equip but the honor ones always have been. Except that the last time I checked on the Beta server the Honor gems were also no longer unique-on-equip, meaning you could hit the honor cap and max out the marks and have enough honor saved up to purchase roughly 15 gems which should be enough to completely regem a whole set of gear.

Talaus-Mok'Nathal · 09/02/08, 8:27 PM

So as of right now I'm seeing Ancestral Knowledge as one of the lesser needed talents. I'm never planning on stacking int, the increased mana pool doesn't intrigue me that much, and the minimal affect on spell crit is, well, minimal. With my current gear (even though I only have 2 pieces with any int on them adding a total of 42 Int) the difference between taking the neccessary 2 points to get to the next tier, and 5 points is a grand total of 9 AP, 3 SP, and .12 spell crit. Just a quick assumption that I have more hunter gear on, giving me maybe another 100 Int from gear, it becomes 15 AP, 4.5 SP, and .19 spell crit. Yes, this is with the level 70 conversion rates, but I can't see how it's going to become vastly better with higher item level gear and an even lower int->spell crit ratio.

Gem-wise, I'm planning on converting all my red-slot gems to AP/crit gems, the yellow slots to straight crit, and the blue slots (that I'm filling in order to keep my meta-gem active) with crit/stam. That assumes that I actually want the socket bonus though. If I don't, it's still going to be better to through straight crit gems in there, right? With over 400 Agility, I'm getting hurt pretty bad in the crit department with the agility->crit change.

Edit: With regards to gearing towards the spell hit cap, if you have either a moonkin or a shadow priest in your raid, you get a bonus 3% spell hit. Probably not something to be counted on given the rarity of both specs currently, but it would bring down the second "hit cap".

Levva · 09/02/08, 9:41 PM

Time will tell regarding Ancestral Knowledge the deciding factor is likely to be itemisation on gear at lvl 80. I suspect it is Blizzard's aim is to dramatically reduce the range of drops on a raid boss. They have hinted at this, that they would prefer to have items drop where it is unlikely that they will be passed over because of much greater competition for the item.

This is easiest to see with cloth gear, where the change to spellpower means that all cloth gear will be wanted equally by all 3 cloth classes. I suspect the changes to Ancestral Knowledge point the way to our gear having more INT on it, and there being an aim that all mail gear that drops will be equally attractive to Shamans & Hunters.

Remember also that more INT = more spell crit which with Elemental Devastation feeds into more melee crit. So there is a certain flow or synergy to the talents now that may well make more INT quite attractive. Crit Rating feeding into spell crit melee crit will probably be the best stat however as we have 3 procs that feed directly off crit and a perhaps few more pending that will depend on gear/enchants/glyphs.

PS. As an aside to those of you in the beta, I've uploaded a new version of the DisqoDice addon tonight v2.11 which incorporates a lot of the suggestions from this forum in particular the handling of Maelstrom weapon. I've also taken the opportunity to rename it ShockAndAwe which I thought was a more fitting title for our status as melee dps gods (well we can but dream). You can get this version from ShockAndAwe (formerly DisqoDice) : WoWInterface Downloads : WotLK Beta which also has details of the changes.

I'd love to get some feedback on that page as to further suggestions or bug reports. The next version will include an Uptime frame with bars for Session & Last Fight for all of our important buffs (suggestions for a list of buffs to include would be most welcome - eg: should I include Mongoose & Stonebreaker Totem procs?)

Fearlezz · 09/02/08, 10:18 PM

Just as I was about to revise my numbers, I noticed the new 3.0 sim is out. Guess I'll work on that tomorrow when I find some free time then.

Talaus-Mok'Nathal · 09/03/08, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

Remember also that more INT = more spell crit which with Elemental Devastation feeds into more melee crit. So there is a certain flow or synergy to the talents now that may well make more INT quite attractive. Crit Rating feeding into spell crit melee crit will probably be the best stat however as we have 3 procs that feed directly off crit and a perhaps few more pending that will depend on gear/enchants/glyphs.

But the Int->Spell Crit rate is so low, it takes 80 Int for 1% Crit at lvl 70, where it's only 22.08 crit rating for 1 spell crit. I can't see Int as a valid way to get crit, and even with it giving 1.1 AP per point in Int (with the AK talent) it still seems dwarfed by rogue gear stacking Agility, which goes into melee crit at double the rate (40 Agi for 1% crit), and still gives the AP. Also, the need for spell crit is lessened even more by the projected FS->LvB rotation. Every 8 seconds and 5 stacks of MW (whichever comes last) we'll be getting a guaranteed spell crit.

But yeah, they're trying to get us to share gear with hunters, but this doesn't seem to be enough of a change to make me move away from leather, unless they change the itemization on rogue gear too. If we start seeing more Strength leather instead of the Agi/AP that they have now, then I'll probably end up sticking with mail. Otherwise, the rogues are just gonna have to remain used to me rolling on their gear.

Urgok · 09/03/08, 3:24 AM

Originally Posted by Paladia

Instead of making Death Knights a new and unique class, it really feels like they are copying a lot of the flavour from the Shaman class giving it to DRs, in a better or easier form.

Horn of Winter: The Death Knight blows the Horn of Winter, increasing total Strength and Agility of all party or raid members within [RADIUS] yards by 155. Lasts 120 sec.
A better version of Strength of Earth Totem. It doesn't suffer from being static, taking up a totem slot or being one shotted.

Path of Frost: The Death Knight's freezing aura creates ice beneath Ghim:her; feet, allowing Ghim:her; to walk on water. Works while mounted.
A better version of water walk. It costs no reagent, it works AoE and you can mount with it.

Improved Icy Talons
Basically Windfury Totem but only requires 1 talent point, doesn't force you to constantly rebuff nor does it take an air totem spot, cannot be one shotted.

Abomination's Might
Your Blood Strikes and Heart Strikes have a 50% chance and your Obliterates have a 100% chance to increase the attack power by 10% of raid members within 20 yards for 10 sec.
Unleashed rage but higher up in the tree and only requires two talent points.

Coupled with the fact that Death Knights do far more damage atm in beta than enhance and bring a much more unique combat system and utilities, it makes for a very lackluster Shaman.

Shamans really come out on the losing end with the buff changes as well. As most of the buffs in the game are getting merged, the primary buffing class (Shamans), naturally lose the most out of it. It also makes it very poor since Shamans have by far the worst buffing system (stationary, only one buff per totem, 5hp) which used to be balanced with the fact that they had the most powerful buffs, but no more.

I was actually going over this once I got a hold of the raid debuff list. I came to a few preliminary conclusions;

A) Every class's debuffs and buffs are to some extent redundant, so small differences in DPS potential will determine if you get a raid slot. In other words, assuming two equally geared melee dps'ers two things can happen; Person A goes because they are a better player and can maintain a higher dps up time or Person B goes because the class's are slightly out of balance and they just do more damage. This doesn't take into account Bloodlust/Heroism, see below.

B) The 5 min exhaustion associated with Bloodlust/Heroism makes it stupid to take more then 2 shamans to any raid. Fights rarely last longer then 10 minutes, 15 tops, and by then the first CD will be up again. This is assuming that Bloodlust/Heroism is the only real difference between the two prospective raid members. If 30 minute boss fights or 30 to 60 minute long trash runs become more standard (think of a Hyjal instance with more trash waves) this point is less valid.

I agree completely with your last point, our buffs are weak in comparison to other classes at the moment.

Lastly, if all melee classes will be balanced perfectly, which is extremely unlikely to say it politely, we should be fine. It is however much more likely that inter class relationships will be out of balance, in this case we will all have to re-roll rogues. That last comment leaves my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, but I think in general the point and others above remain valid.

Fearlezz · 09/03/08, 4:32 AM

Well, one enhancement shaman can do WF, SOE, UR, SS and Bloodlust. For a DK to be able to cover the same buffs, he has to go with a nerfed Blood/Frost spec wich is not ideal for dps as it stands now, so he'll either do less damage or you will want to bring a blood and a frost DK to cover both. And you still wouldn't get a Bloodlust and SS debuff (if they keep it as it is). Even if you could effectivly use just 2 Bloodlusts, you can't say there's no benefit for having a shaman of every spec in raid for their caster (Totem of wrath, Flametongue) and mana regen (mana tide) buffs. We are the only class that can use caster mail armor too, DKs will be fighting with Warriors and Paladins so having too many plate wearers could cause loot dristribution problems too. I wouldn't be worried about shaman spots in raid just yet because looking at what DKs bring I just can't see how it's better from what we do in the current state.

• Raut · 09/03/08, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Urgok

B) The 5 min exhaustion associated with Bloodlust/Heroism makes it stupid to take more then 2 shamans to any raid.

You are doing it wrong. If you are only invited into raids now because you have a Bloodlust button, something is clearly not right.

Blizzard are currently making buffs raid-wise and giving a lot of classes shared abilities so you don't have to cancel because that pesky lolkin couldn't make it. This means raids will not be canceled because an enhancement shaman isn't there, but that's one out of three specs. Elemental shares out fate if not even weaker, but resto is still pretty great. There's no point in stacking 6+ shamans in a 25 man raid anymore and good riddance I say.

Levva · 09/03/08, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by Talaus-Mok'Nathal

But the Int->Spell Crit rate is so low, it takes 80 Int for 1% Crit at lvl 70, where it's only 22.08 crit rating for 1 spell crit. I can't see Int as a valid way to get crit, and even with it giving 1.1 AP per point in Int (with the AK talent) it still seems dwarfed by rogue gear stacking Agility, which goes into melee crit at double the rate (40 Agi for 1% crit), and still gives the AP. Also, the need for spell crit is lessened even more by the projected FS->LvB rotation. Every 8 seconds and 5 stacks of MW (whichever comes last) we'll be getting a guaranteed spell crit.

But yeah, they're trying to get us to share gear with hunters, but this doesn't seem to be enough of a change to make me move away from leather, unless they change the itemization on rogue gear too. If we start seeing more Strength leather instead of the Agi/AP that they have now, then I'll probably end up sticking with mail. Otherwise, the rogues are just gonna have to remain used to me rolling on their gear.

Sorry you are still thinking lvl 70. We have no clue yet what gear itemisation will be at 80. It doesn't matter one iota what the crit rate is for Int at lvl 70, its what it is at 80 that matters, although granted I expect it to be worse. Until they have released a few updates to the beta that actually contain the raids and we can actually see the new starter lvl 80 epics we have very little to go on regarding itemisation.

Remember to that they have categorically stated that they are not done yet. They haven't finished the initial class reviews let alone started on balancing. So expect major changes to come before patch 3.0.2 goes on the test server. Then expect further major changes before patch 3.0 goes live after they start class balancing, and raid boss testing.

Its fairly clear that this time round they are listening and that comments and suggestions are getting taken up. Of course we still have the whiners on some of the blizzard forums who assume that the way it is on beta today is what is going live. Whereas its clear that they are still a long way from even finishing the content let alone balancing stuff.

Sprout · 09/03/08, 9:39 AM

Blue post:

WoW Forums -> A whine about Hex

Hex (and Fear, Entangling Roots, Freezing Trap etc.) is intended to break after a flat amount of damage relative to your HP pool, that may not currently be functioning as intended.

Interesting dynamic. We should be able to figure this formula out once they iron out the bugs so we know EXACTLY how much dmg will break hex. I could even see an addon to monitor dmg to hexed targets to warn that you are close to breaking hex.

bithalver · 09/03/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sprout

Blue post:

WoW Forums -> A whine about Hex

Hex (and Fear, Entangling Roots, Freezing Trap etc.) is intended to break after a flat amount of damage relative to your HP pool, that may not currently be functioning as intended.

Interesting dynamic. We should be able to figure this formula out once they iron out the bugs so we know EXACTLY how much dmg will break hex. I could even see an addon to monitor dmg to hexed targets to warn that you are close to breaking hex.

Interesting it is. My main is an affliction lock, so I am interested heavily in this mechanism change.

There is a "Glyph of Fear" for locks adding 20% more to the damage breaking fear. Probably it should be one similar for shamans.

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Please vorfige me for rgammar miskates; ingiliz not is ym tanive ganluage.

Mman · 09/03/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Raut

You are doing it wrong. If you are only invited into raids now because you have a Bloodlust button, something is clearly not right.

The thing is, Blizzard balances our class around having heroism/bloodlust. If 95% of our appeal as a class is our innate abilities (dps, heals, buffs) and the other 5% is heroism/bloodlust then that third shaman, no matter the spec, has lost part of it's appeal. What other class immedietly loses value when bringing a third one to raid?

Originally Posted by Fearlezz

Well, one enhancement shaman can do WF, SOE, UR, SS and Bloodlust. For a DK to be able to cover the same buffs, he has to go with a nerfed Blood/Frost spec wich is not ideal for dps as it stands now, so he'll either do less damage or you will want to bring a blood and a frost DK to cover both. And you still wouldn't get a Bloodlust and SS debuff (if they keep it as it is). Even if you could effectivly use just 2 Bloodlusts, you can't say there's no benefit for having a shaman of every spec in raid for their caster (Totem of wrath, Flametongue) and mana regen (mana tide) buffs. We are the only class that can use caster mail armor too, DKs will be fighting with Warriors and Paladins so having too many plate wearers could cause loot dristribution problems too. I wouldn't be worried about shaman spots in raid just yet because looking at what DKs bring I just can't see how it's better from what we do in the current state.

I'm not sure anybody is worried about raid spots for Shaman in general. We are worried about enhancement spots (so who cares about caster mail). If your raid has both a frost and a blood DK that pretty much only leaves us with bloodlust and SS. However, only 2 bloodlusts are really valuable to the raid, and the buffs from resto and elemental shaman are much harder to replace. So if you put them in the raid our only buff is SS, and who knows what is going to happen to that. If this situation comes up our value is going to pretty much be placed on our personal dps (and skill, obviously). If our dps is high enough to ignore that we are not getting our valuable buffs, fine. If they are not then our spot gets harder to justify.

My real problem is that it is a terrible design to give almost all our unique abilities to another class, even if it is hard for one of them to pick them all up. Spread the buffs around. What is going to happen if a raid can only take a resto shaman and an unholy DK? Is there raid going to be screwed because they don't have either an enhancement shaman or a blood dk?

The other problem I have with the changes to buffs is that it hurts melee buffers much worse than it hurts caster buffers. Melee, for the most part, are much closer together than ranged. If you have one person covering a buff in melee it is safe to assume that everybody doing melee is in range of that buff, so you don't need another This isn't true at all for ranged. They are often spread out. If you have 2 ranged people providing the same ranged buff than it allows for them to spread out and still be buffed.

• Daler · 09/03/08, 12:15 PM

@Mman

ToW sucks monkey nuts now. It's a Flametongue Totem with a ret paladin's judgment buff tied in. On single target bosses, if any shaman spec is actually in danger of a lost spot due to the state of their buffs, it's elemental.

Additionally, go look at Lapp's breakdown of Frost DPS rotation. Their WF analog drops off for 1.5 seconds every 21.5 seconds. Ours will be up 100% of the time. And with the current state of Oblit being off of Might of Mograine, Abom's Might is only a 50% proc chance on HS/DS, since Oblit is not currently playing a big role in Blood DPS. They'd have to weaken their DPS rotation to proc the buff. We do not. Things may change of course (and probably will), but the same could be said for us. No reason to cry wolf just yet.

Yes they got our buffs. No buff is unique now, and DKs were picked to be our redundancy. But we still have those buffs in a more convenient form, and in a more compact package. Raid stacking will still be done. It will most likely be a case of how do we get the total set of buffs/debuffs with as few raid slots as possible, so the rest can be our top DPSers. And in such a raid, the class that brings more buffs in a single raid slot wins.

TLDR version: don't get your panties in a twist. We're fine.

Sydane · 09/03/08, 12:25 PM

Guess what, not every successful raid in the world is going to need to have an enhancement shaman in it for LK. But if you play an enhancement shaman, you aren't going to get left out just because of your class either, even in 10 mans. For all the talk that people think they will lose their 25 man slot, did you think about how for cutting edge 10 man raiding now there's very rarely a slot for an enhancement shaman? Your slot will be dictated by your skill. If you only have a raid slot now because of the buffs you provide, and you couldn't outperform the ret paladin otherwise, you're going to get benched. Not because of your class, but because you suck.

Truly, right now, the only class basically guaranteed a raid slot in a 10 man and a second slot in a 25 man is shaman because of heroism. Hopefully they will give other classes something similar that causes the same debuff. Your dream shouldn't be for the game to be designed to require an enhancement shaman. Your dream should be that no individual spec is required for any raid, so you can always have your slot because of the player that you are.

Mman · 09/03/08, 1:07 PM

Firstly, I want to say that I don't think we will lose our spots in raids. Stacking melee in TBC was not good, and enhancment shamans provide the most melee buffs for one spot, so we will probably be valuable.

I also really don't think consolidating buffs is going to shift raids towards skilled players any more than there is now. There are so many things to consider when picking classes/specs for raids and buffs are just a part of that (although a larger part for shamans than other classes currently). That being said, I think there is valid reasons to question the changes Blizzard is making.

The shift in buff philosophy is largely a response to our specific class. It is disingenuous though to say that a large part of my value in TBC was not because of the buffs I provided. That value is decreasing in LK. Blizzard in the past has often been pretty short sighted in designing our class, and we have been succesful pretty much in spite of that. It is really up in the air to see how blizzard balances our class giving the unique way buff changes afffect us.

Atren · 09/03/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

Guess what, not every successful raid in the world is going to need to have an enhancement shaman in it for LK. But if you play an enhancement shaman, you aren't going to get left out just because of your class either, even in 10 mans. For all the talk that people think they will lose their 25 man slot, did you think about how for cutting edge 10 man raiding now there's very rarely a slot for an enhancement shaman? Your slot will be dictated by your skill. If you only have a raid slot now because of the buffs you provide, and you couldn't outperform the ret paladin otherwise, you're going to get benched. Not because of your class, but because you suck.

Truly, right now, the only class basically guaranteed a raid slot in a 10 man and a second slot in a 25 man is shaman because of heroism. Hopefully they will give other classes something similar that causes the same debuff. Your dream shouldn't be for the game to be designed to require an enhancement shaman. Your dream should be that no individual spec is required for any raid, so you can always have your slot because of the player that you are.

Sydane, shamans are one of four classes that can heal. Guess how many resto shamans it probably means for 7-8 healers? So actually enhance shaman is on very slippery slope and strong resto shaman is actually bad for enhance. Furtheron comparing lock and enhance shaman -- in order to viable for magical ranged dps blizzard must succeed with one of the three (or two depending if they even try to make demo really option, dunno what state it in). For enhance shaman it is one tree, do or die. The same situation is for all hybrids that can heal -- it would be no wonder if all four of classes will have 2 healers and 1 offspec.

Toots Hepcat · 09/03/08, 1:25 PM

People raided with enhancement shamans in vanilla when we sucked at DPS and had mediocre buffs.

They will raid with enhancement shamans in Wrath when we beat ass and bring sick buffs.

If you want to raid enhance, find a guild that will let you raid enhance, learn your shit and get as strong as you can. It's that simple. Who cares what SK's zero-hour, content raping raid team has if a dual enhance team is 95% as good and can clear the content.

The amount of QQ in here is amazing. Blizzard is trying to encourage balance, and to blur the lines of requirement. That's good for everybody. Nobody likes sitting out because you can't form a group with the people you've got. So your server has one guild fielding 6 shamans? In a few months it'll have two guilds fielding 3 each.