Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 66

Skreekins · 09/09/08, 4:11 PM

Since the discussion has now turned back to ability rotations, I'm going to shamelessly plug my own idea again. It involves adding a .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 second GCD reduction for all spells and abilities to the Maelstrom Weapon talent in addition to its current effect. It would add to the PvP appeal of the talent and greatly assist us in our ability to actually use our spells and strikes when they come off cooldown. In fact, putting points in our reduced cooldown talents can actually complicate rotations further and cause less "damage per point" than blizzard expects from the talent.

We have so many instants that our GCD actually hurts us considerably without even serving its purpose as a damage limiter. We have no spammable spells or abilities (all have cooldowns or share cooldowns with eachother), so we could have no GCD at all and our damage would still not increase other than what we gain from the lack of conflicting GCDs, a conflict that should not even exist.

Our ability rotations would be greatly simplified, but still dynamic and interesting due to RNG factors. The rotation would look like this:

The boxes represent 1 second increments, and any white boxes in the center can be used for totem refreshing, shield refreshing, maelstrom casts, or any other thing you might need to do. The green/red bar rotation does represent earth/flame shock, but can just as easily be all red depending on how fast you stack maelstrom. This is the type of thing that blizzard needs to implement to make enhancement feel fresh again. It needs to be complex enough to not be boring, but simple enough that less advanced players can still do their thing. The current system of limiting our abilities with self inflicted GCDs is not fun.

Or am I completely off base? GCD is my biggest complaint as enhancement. Would this not be an ideal solution to improve a lackluster talent and rejuvenate the spec with a new mechanic?

Rouncer · 09/09/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Aww thanks, Rounced! I consider myself the champion of the 'you need to spell hit cap yourself' crowd :P And might I point out that with the removal of spell hit on the Dual Wield Specialization talent, It will probably work out better for us if we did NOT put points into it anymore, as each point is now essentially worth half of what it was worth just last week.

From a pure DPS standpoint, this spec might be best now: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft This assumes there is always a TSA Huntard or a AM Spec DK in the raid of course.

That's an interesting concept and one that I never thought about before. Hit has never been that valuable before now, basically get capped on specials (normally through talents) and then don't worry about it too much but if we are going to want to be spell hit capped there will be no reason to spec those 3 points in Dual Wield Specialization.

Getting spell hit capped (incl having Imp Faerie Fire or Misery) is 368 hit rating which is 11.22% melee hit percent or 2% over the melee special hit cap.

I'm thinking this would be more likely to be my actual raiding build.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Counting on TSA being present and that Blizzard won't let the Feral Spirits go live without enough dps to outperform Elemental Fury (since Koraa said as much back in the Alpha forums when someone asked about that specific issue).

Originally Posted by Skreekins

Lots of stuff...

Dude, we just play the game, we don't make it. Theorycrafting about potential rotations or macros (really loved the ones on the last page) to maximize raid dps inside the structure that Blizzard is giving us is productive.

Theorizing how amazing things would be if this was the way a certain talent worked if only Blizzard was reading this thread is the exact opposite of productive, probably more akin to picking lint from your belly button.

Just to nitpick (and cause I'm not sure atm) isn't your talent concept flawed anyway? Since Haste Rating will affect melee and spell haste and spell haste is linked to the GCD, won't haste rating be reducing the GCD anyway and since Wrath of Air will be raid wide that will be another 10% off of the GCD for all of our abilities. So wouldn't incorporating that into the talent just end up being redundant? Especially since Totems are already at 1 second GCD so they can't be lowered any further and dropping totems is such a large part of the reason we are always on the GCD anyway.

Pitbuller · 09/09/08, 4:22 PM

Blizzard have talent point budjet cost system. Maelstrom add now 700dps or 23%dps. Talent budjet is about 1% per point dps/survibility. Maybe they could add GCD reduction something another talent. But maelstorm weapon is very good talent now and maybe over budjeted at blizzard eyes.

Edit: Dual wield spec is still 1% damage increase per point after 10% melee hit. It's par with Static Shock, Improved Storm Strike and Weapon Mastery per point. Call of flame or Reverberation is much worser choice.

Edit: Improved shields is absolote trash 0.5% dps per 3 point. Ancestrak Knowledge is same size dps boost(at 500int) but also give more mana and mana regen. But if we need Ancestral Knowledge that mail is par with leather then it's just armor + mana talent without dps component.

Rouncer · 09/09/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Dual wield spec is still 1% damage increase per point after 10% melee hit. It's par with Static Shock, Improved Storm Strike and Weapon Mastery per point. Call of flame or Reverberation is much worser choice.

Interesting. How does ancestral knowledge compare to those talents? I'm thinking currently pretty bad but what levels of Intellect would be necessary to bring that talent up to the level of those other ones?

Would this be a better build if you could count on TSA being available then? or would points in Reverberation be useless without maxing out the talent?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Sprout · 09/09/08, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

That's an interesting concept and one that I never thought about before. Hit has never been that valuable before now, basically get capped on specials (normally through talents) and then don't worry about it too much but if we are going to want to be spell hit capped there will be no reason to spec those 3 points in Dual Wield Specialization.

Getting spell hit capped (incl having Imp Faerie Fire or Misery) is 368 hit rating which is 11.22% melee hit percent or 2% over the melee special hit cap.

I'm thinking this would be more likely to be my actual raiding build.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Counting on TSA being present and that Blizzard won't let the Feral Spirits go live without enough dps to outperform Elemental Fury (since Koraa said as much back in the Alpha forums when someone asked about that specific issue).

Dude, we just play the game, we don't make it. Theorycrafting about potential rotations or macros (really loved the ones on the last page) to maximize raid dps inside the structure that Blizzard is giving us is productive.

Theorizing how amazing things would be if this was the way a certain talent worked if only Blizzard was reading this thread is the exact opposite of productive, probably more akin to picking lint from your belly button.

While you may bne right abotu spirit wolves, I dont see how they could raise the dps enough without making them OP in PVP. Assuming the 40-50% spell dmg we have heard in the sims and ~ 25-30% crit rate, EF will raise DPS by ~ 5%-7.5% .

Thats 125-187.5 dps. The wolves were doing 25 dps in the calc s I saw.....

Rouncer · 09/09/08, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by Sprout

While you may bne right abotu spirit wolves, I dont see how they could raise the dps enough without making them OP in PVP. Assuming the 40-50% spell dmg we have heard in the sims and ~ 25-30% crit rate, EF will raise DPS by ~ 5%-7.5% .

Thats 125-187.5 dps. The wolves were doing 25 dps in the calc s I saw.....

I'm thinking they will be doing at least 600-700 dps combined when out and in a raid situation. They will be affected by all raid buffs and debuffs and that is what will allow them to do that much dps and what will prevent them from being overpowered when in PvP.

Lets say they balance them to do 300dps of melee damage when the shaman is solo and with them being affected by unleashed rage and SoE and windfury totem. If that is predicated on them only having 40% of the shaman's AP think about how much they will be boosted by a Battleshout. That may require some coordination and a helpful dps warrior to accomplish but really shouldn't be hard to macro summoning the Feral Spirits with a whisper to a dps warrior to Battleshout as soon as he is able.

That spirit bite also will probably scale with 40% shaman's +Nature damage and the bite can have whatever coefficient Blizzard determines is necessary to balance them as a proper 51 point talent. Since Flametongue totem and CoE will affect it's damage that is another area where they can work to scale up the wolves damage in a raid without overpowering them in PvP (since they probably won't be getting those in PvP). They will probably even double-dip on the Flametongue totem since they will get some percent of the xtra spell power you get (the water elemental does this) as well as the totem applying to them directly.

eh, I really like the wolves and the concept in general so I really hope they do fulfill Koraa's promise and give them sufficient dps to justify not speccing to Elemental Fury. If they don't then they will end up being part of an Enhancement Shaman's PvP spec with Elemental Fury being for PvE specs and that really isn't too bad either.

Hothgor · 09/09/08, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Blizzard have talent point budjet cost system. Maelstrom add now 700dps or 23%dps. Talent budjet is about 1% per point dps/survibility. Maybe they could add GCD reduction something another talent. But maelstorm weapon is very good talent now and maybe over budjeted at blizzard eyes.

Edit: Dual wield spec is still 1% damage increase per point after 10% melee hit. It's par with Static Shock, Improved Storm Strike and Weapon Mastery per point. Call of flame or Reverberation is much worser choice.

Edit: Improved shields is absolote trash 0.5% dps per 3 point. Ancestrak Knowledge is same size dps boost(at 500int) but also give more mana and mana regen. But if we need Ancestral Knowledge that mail is par with leather then it's just armor + mana talent without dps component.

That doesn't sound correct. White Damage is now about 30% of our overall damage according to your simulator, yes? Wouldn't that make each point worth roughly 0.6% dps per point? I never really looked at the math on the Improved shields, but 0.5% per 3 points does sound retarded...but does this include the 20% Glyph as well? But if the improved shields are really that bad then obviously you are left with Ancestral Knowledge or Dual Wield Specialization.

I'll mess around with the Simulator later tonight!

The reason I have 5/5 Reverb is to make the rotation macro 'synch'.

Pitbuller · 09/09/08, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

That doesn't sound correct. White Damage is now about 30% of our overall damage according to your simulator, yes? Wouldn't that make each point worth roughly 0.6% dps per point? I never really looked at the math on the Improved shields, but 0.5% per 3 points does sound retarded...but does this include the 20% Glyph as well? But if the improved shields are really that bad then obviously you are left with Ancestral Knowledge or Dual Wield Specialization.

I'll mess around with the Simulator later tonight!

The reason I have 5/5 Reverb is to make the rotation macro 'synch'.

You can't napking math value of hit that easily. Not only white dps. But also hit boost windfury on main-hand and flame tongue on off-hand. It have minor impact static shock and even tiny effect to maelstorm weapon becouse windfury can crit. There is too many variation thats why I allways use sim first if there is one.

Edit: Forget about rotations and think about priority table. Spamming button is not fun and it's only lower your dps. Reactive playstyle is fun and it boost your dps.

Rouncer · 09/09/08, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

You can't napking math value of hit that easily. Not only white dps. But also hit boost windfury on main-hand and flame tongue on off-hand. It have minor impact static shock and even tiny effect to maelstorm weapon becouse windfury can crit. There is too many variation thats why I allways use sim first if there is one.

Windfury crits won't proc Maelstrom Weapon (procs don't proc from other procs).

Atren · 09/09/08, 6:27 PM

So what would you call Flurry then Rounced? As well as our other crit based abilities.

Pitbuller · 09/09/08, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Windfury crits won't proc Maelstrom Weapon (procs don't proc from other procs).

I see this at not intented bug. WF proc many similar procs. Flurry etc. Blizzard have stated that extra attack don't proc another extra attack but this isn't case with this. Tooltip say "when you critical hit with a melee weapon.". Thundering Strikes say "Improves your chance to get a critical strike with your weapon attacks by 5%." and it work to Wf. Elemental Devastation say "Your offensive spell crits will increase your chance to get a critical strike with melee attacks by 9% for 10 sec.". All those tooltip give same feeling work all melee damage. Maelstorm is buff not damage proc.

If windfury isn't intented proc maelstorm then whole weapon imbue just die. Then we end up using caster weapon with flametongue which simulator show being about par now if WF can proc mael. If this gonna happen blizzard have to buff it some how or nerf flame tongue or/and caster weapon melee dps scaling(another new wotlk mechanic).

I just can't see what is different with flurry and maelstorm?

Edit: Too slow.
Melee vs caster weapon statistic.
Naxx fist weapon - > 3411dps.

Naxx caster mace - > 3566dps with ft.

Sprout · 09/09/08, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

I'm thinking they will be doing at least 600-700 dps combined when out and in a raid situation. They will be affected by all raid buffs and debuffs and that is what will allow them to do that much dps and what will prevent them from being overpowered when in PvP.

Lets say they balance them to do 300dps of melee damage when the shaman is solo and with them being affected by unleashed rage and SoE and windfury totem. If that is predicated on them only having 40% of the shaman's AP think about how much they will be boosted by a Battleshout. That may require some coordination and a helpful dps warrior to accomplish but really shouldn't be hard to macro summoning the Feral Spirits with a whisper to a dps warrior to Battleshout as soon as he is able.

That spirit bite also will probably scale with 40% shaman's +Nature damage and the bite can have whatever coefficient Blizzard determines is necessary to balance them as a proper 51 point talent. Since Flametongue totem and CoE will affect it's damage that is another area where they can work to scale up the wolves damage in a raid without overpowering them in PvP (since they probably won't be getting those in PvP). They will probably even double-dip on the Flametongue totem since they will get some percent of the xtra spell power you get (the water elemental does this) as well as the totem applying to them directly.

eh, I really like the wolves and the concept in general so I really hope they do fulfill Koraa's promise and give them sufficient dps to justify not speccing to Elemental Fury. If they don't then they will end up being part of an Enhancement Shaman's PvP spec with Elemental Fury being for PvE specs and that really isn't too bad either.

Many of the buffs you are referring to will be available, but they are all percentages. Many of them ownt be available at all because the pet is not out when the rad is buffed. You bring up good points with the AP and SP buffs, but when your getting 25 dps its going to take ALOT of buffage to get to 600.

Honestly it doesnt matter to me either way, the pets would be fun, big Lvb crits would be fun. But Bliz will have to do some pretty good work to get the pets to scale properly and to do enough raw dps without making them nuts in PVP. time will tell.

Rouncer · 09/09/08, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

If windfury isn't intented proc maelstorm then whole weapon imbue just die. Then we end up using caster weapon with flametongue which simulator show being about par now if WF can proc mael. If this gonna happen blizzard have to buff it some how or nerf flame tongue or/and caster weapon melee dps scaling(another new wotlk mechanic).

Just to make sure that you aren't feeding improper mechanics into that simulator. You know that Flametongue weapon can't proc Elemental Devastation too, right?

Procs don't proc other procs, that is the way the mechanics have been set up as far as I am aware. There could be exceptions but not in the cases you are mentioning, at least as far as I am aware.

Originally Posted by Sprout

Many of the buffs you are referring to will be available, but they are all percentages. Many of them ownt be available at all because the pet is not out when the rad is buffed. You bring up good points with the AP and SP buffs, but when your getting 25 dps its going to take ALOT of buffage to get to 600.

Honestly it doesnt matter to me either way, the pets would be fun, big Lvb crits would be fun. But Bliz will have to do some pretty good work to get the pets to scale properly and to do enough raw dps without making them nuts in PVP. time will tell.

Which buff isn't available when the raid is buffed? Blessing of Might won't be but I never mentioned that one, Battleshout is a 2 min timed buff and thats why I said you would want to macro it to the wolves summon so the warrior will reapply it when they become active.

The other buffs I mentioned are Flametongue Totem and CoE. Totem continuously reapplies the buff to those it is affecting and CoE is a debuff on the target.

As for the 600dps, I don't expect them to average out to 600dps. That would be insane. I expect them to output at least 600dps (and probably will be more) while they are active. Since they have a 25% uptime, 600dps would work out to 125dps or just equal to what you would see from Elemental Fury.

How do I get to 600dps from such a craptastic current performance?

They are not scaling with any of our stats currently.

They are currently meleeing for about 71 damage each with a 2 second attack speed, so 71dps while active and I just checked and they definitely aren't scaling at all with my stats - 2250 AP and naked as a jawbird showed them with exactly the same dps.

Water Elemental gets 40% of their summoner's Spell Power. So say they split 40% of your AP. Raid Buffed we should be getting near 4000AP when we hit Naxx which means they would share 1600 AP get an additional 114dps from that, putting them at 185dps with their melee. Then they get all the raid buffs, so they will hit 20% faster from WF and gain AP from the SoE totem and then gain 10% more on top of that and since there are 2 of them they will each gain their own Battleshout so that will have doubled the effect.

Say they scale the same as us in regards to Strength and Agility, SoE will give them each 356 AP (712). Battle Shout is another 550 each (non-talented) so that's another 1100. So they are up to 3412 AP combined. Then add in TSA and they are at 3753 AP which would add 268 dps to their base of 71. So now they are doing 339dps then 20% haste for Windfury totem will bring them to 407dps for their base melee not including any bite damage.

That is also without any knowledge of how their crit rate will scale (or if it will at all)and without including any crits at all (and all pets have 5% crit rate as their base)

Spirit Bite is 96-144 nature damage every 5 seconds. I don't know if that is for both wolves or for each one since it doesn't seem to be implemented yet. Also have no clue about any coefficients or how much spell power they will get from us. But I would bet money that it will be enough to at the very least take the damage they output and push it over the values derived for Elemental Fury.

One xtra little note (gotta raid in a minute so not editing this post much - sorry if it is at all confusing) while playing with them I hit Twin Howl to see if it delayed their melee attacks and was stunnned to watch it root the targeting dummy in a graphic that was unmistakably frost nova.

Maybe they don't just have a stun, maybe Twin Howl is actually going to be a root with the caveat that it will make PvE mobs focus all their attacks on the wolves once rooted.

All of this is conjecture, of course, but I have a little faith left in Blizzard and I can't believe that they will implement the wolves as nothing more then a flashy short stun and a get outta snare/root free card on a 3 minute cooldown.

Skreekins · 09/09/08, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Dude, we just play the game, we don't make it. Theorycrafting about potential rotations or macros (really loved the ones on the last page) to maximize raid dps inside the structure that Blizzard is giving us is productive.

Theorizing how amazing things would be if this was the way a certain talent worked if only Blizzard was reading this thread is the exact opposite of productive, probably more akin to picking lint from your belly button.

Just to nitpick (and cause I'm not sure atm) isn't your talent concept flawed anyway? Since Haste Rating will affect melee and spell haste and spell haste is linked to the GCD, won't haste rating be reducing the GCD anyway and since Wrath of Air will be raid wide that will be another 10% off of the GCD for all of our abilities. So wouldn't incorporating that into the talent just end up being redundant? Especially since Totems are already at 1 second GCD so they can't be lowered any further and dropping totems is such a large part of the reason we are always on the GCD anyway.

I appreciate the acknowledgment of my post. I understand that devs don't read this board, but I also understand that many of the major names in the shaman community read these forums and many are in beta. I saw a problem with GCDs conflicting with rotations and I offered a way to fix it that i have not seen before. If the idea caught on within the community, it would almost definitely make its way to the beta forums.

I imagined it simply not having an effect on totem GCD (though .5 second totem GCD would probably be fine). While haste will reduce the GCD of spells, I believe that the amount of haste that it takes to permanently reduce the spell GCD to 1 second is astronomical, even including Wrath of Air. I also think that many pages ago when this thread was first discussing rotations the idea of stacking haste to prevent GCD overlaps was debunked.

The main idea behind the addition is to eliminate GCD clipping, which is a phenomenon mostly unique to our class. Other melee specs have the GCD to throttle back their damage potential (though rogues, cat druids and DKs in unholy presence also have .5 seconds off of their GCD). Our ability cooldowns do that for us. The GCD only hinders our ability to deal the damage our spec is meant to produce. I would be willing to bet that the spreadsheets the developers use to calculate DPS in the most ideal situation assume 6 stormstrikes per minute and 10 shocks per minute, which is not possible due to GCD clipping. With the proposed GCD reduction, we have no clipping at all. A perfect rotation.

Anyway, my napkin math says that three extra talent points (from not taking imp DW) will not overtake the damage increase from +6% hit, even if you are special/spell hit capped from gear. Elemental shields? Static Shock (if you hadn't taken it before)? Reverberation's usefulness is limited by GCD clipping, though it likely has the best chance. I'll crunch some numbers when I get home if someone hasn't done it yet.

Pitbuller · 09/10/08, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Just to make sure that you aren't feeding improper mechanics into that simulator. You know that Flametongue weapon can't proc Elemental Devastation too, right?

Procs don't proc other procs, that is the way the mechanics have been set up as far as I am aware. There could be exceptions but not in the cases you are mentioning, at least as far as I am aware.

I din't mean to say that flametongue proc can proc elemental devastion. I mean that tooltips refer melee weapons and affect windfury. Just like Maelstrorm weapon refer melee weapon crits and thus also wf should proc it.

If wf can't proc maelstorm weapons and never will proc it. Then sim overestimate LvB/Lb dps by 6.5%/42dps or 1.5% of total dps. It's not much but it make gap between melee weapon with wf vs caster weapon with flametongue even larger.

Edit: Thanks gurt. Maybe this discussion did some good after all.

Koraa say another thing too: Also we're going to allow it to also allow you to cast heals with Maelstrom procs =)

Edit:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Feelings on Shamans after completing Naxx25.

A lot of tuning still has to be done, but it's safe to say your DPS is a lot lower
than what should be expected.
All DPS classes/specs after we are done tuning should yield a pretty 
similar DPS with similar gear/"min/max" speccing. It's going to take a bit of time until
we reach that goal, though.

Gurth999 · 09/10/08, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

If wf can't proc maelstorm weapons and never will proc it. Then sim overestimate LvB/Lb dps by 6.5%/42dps or 1.5% of total dps. It's not much but it make gap between melee weapon with wf vs caster weapon with flamtongue even larger.

Koraa has just said that WF will proc maelstrom weapon.

puupi · 09/10/08, 8:52 AM

could someone contribute some dps statistics from the beta. i would like to see how a fast offhand with flametongue does against a normal slow oh with wf on it. screenshots etc. would be very welcome.

ps. how much dps are different classes and specs doing in the beta atm? (against boss target dummies)

Stopokingme · 09/10/08, 11:59 AM

Another new tidbit of info, not much for pve dps, but interesting nonetheless.

Spectral Transformation replaced
We're going to be dumping Spectral Transformation. We decided we weren't cool with the Shaman's Ghost Wolf being too close to a core Druid iconic ability. What will replace it is a deep Enhancement Talent that will cause your Earthbind totem to clear all snares each time it pulses on you and all nearby friendly targets.

Shabadu · 09/10/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Stopokingme

Another new tidbit of info, not much for pve dps, but interesting nonetheless.

It'll just make Earth's Grasp another required talent to be competetive in PVP, like... all of our talents except Enhancing Totems and Imp Windfury. I hope that this doesn't end up the final iteration, given another earth totem that will be a necessity. Having 5 HP and a long cooldown and no tremor or stoneclaw doesn't lend itself to a deep tree talent, even considering it's group benefit. Also still fucked on roots.

Rouncer · 09/10/08, 2:02 PM

I'm really happy to see the upcoming changes to Maelstrom Weapon but it does lead to a sim question that I am hoping one of you guys could model out.

Windfury Weapon increases to a 36% proc rate when dual wielded. How will off-handing a slow weapon with Windfury compare to off-handing a fast weapon with Flametongue in terms of stack rate for Maelstrom Weapon? Will the increased chance to proc Windfury be enough to offset the faster off-hand weapon's stack rate?

Mman · 09/10/08, 2:59 PM

Is it just me or does it seem like our talents/tree needs to be redesigned from the bottom up? Does any other class have so many talents that are NECESSITIES to what our role is? There are about 10-12 core abilities that you have to pick up no matter if you raid/solo/pvp. We also have numerous talents whose only purpose is PvP. A few might have occasional use in a dungeon or solo, but not enough to ever spec into them. Besides Thundering Strikes our first two tiers of talents are pretty much worthless and every enhancement shaman would skip them if they could.

Based on what we have seen in the beta so far our talent choices are not so much defined by what we take in our own tree but what we have room to take in the ELEMENTAL tree. That is not a good design in my opinion. Our talents should be streamlined so that you have to make choices between good talents, not put all our points in the least bad talents so we can put points in our good pve/pvp talents.

Sprout · 09/10/08, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

It'll just make Earth's Grasp another required talent to be competetive in PVP, like... all of our talents except Enhancing Totems and Imp Windfury. I hope that this doesn't end up the final iteration, given another earth totem that will be a necessity. Having 5 HP and a long cooldown and no tremor or stoneclaw doesn't lend itself to a deep tree talent, even considering it's group benefit. Also still fucked on roots.

This does nto seem bad in my mind, especially because it effects multiple people. I still think the 'bloated tree' arguement is not valid on its face. People complain becuas etheir tree is TOO useful? Sorry makes no sense.

the real question is whether the cost of GW will be reduced now that it is movement only. 8% mana for some speed is excessive.

Skiace · 09/10/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sprout

I still think the 'bloated tree' arguement is not valid on its face. People complain becuas etheir tree is TOO useful? Sorry makes no sense.

What's the point of having a talent tree in the first place if every shaman of a particular spec has to take all talents in 3 consecutive tiers to function in PvE or PvP? If you have to pick up everything to be useful, then there's no choice anymore and there's no point in having a tree to begin with. Might as well replace tiers 5-7 of enhance with one 19-point talent called "enhance skills" and be done with it.

Mman · 09/10/08, 4:30 PM

This change also lessens the value of improved ghost wolf. Still worth it to pick it up if you use the spell a lot, but I think a lot of people were planning to pick that up only with the assumption they could improve it even further down the tree. It also removes the bonus given to feral spirit, which I wonder if they will just role into talent.

Still, I would like to see them give some other ability to enliven ghost wolf (without stepping on the toes/paws of druids). Except in Warsong Gulch, I barely use the spell.

Sprout · 09/10/08, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by Skiace

What's the point of having a talent tree in the first place if every shaman of a particular spec has to take all talents in 3 consecutive tiers to function in PvE or PvP? If you have to pick up everything to be useful, then there's no choice anymore and there's no point in having a tree to begin with. Might as well replace tiers 5-7 of enhance with one 19-point talent called "enhance skills" and be done with it.

See, thats the issue I have. Of COURSE with a large tree you will end up putting most of the points into that tree. If you look at the enh spens people are talking about you will see a bunch with 50, 52 and 54 points in Enh. I dont consider that bloated at all. 0/71/0 would be bloated. After all 54 points is only a few more than the MINIMUM to get the top tier talent. Unless they change the prereq's you will always need 5 points per tier, so if you want to go deep into any tree you will end up with alot of points in one spec.

21/50/0 in particular looks at least competative. 50 points.....how is that blaoted? Would you rather you have crappy high end talents like elemental did a few patches ago and have to subspec fairly deep just to max your dps? Seems foolish to me.