Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 75

Ardonomus · 09/17/08, 5:59 AM

I see, thanks for that. But that still brings us up to 15.77*14=220.78, we'll need 221 hit rating to be spell hit capped?

I'm just confused where the 177 (11.22%?) rating came from?

Levva · 09/17/08, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Call of flame isn't very goof talent even at 80lvl. About 1% dps with three talent point.
Static shock is almoust 1% dps per talent point. But cost water shield and some GCD to recasting. First point is best and last worst. (2% chance with 4 charges vs 6% with 6 charges.)
Static shock and dualwield spec is worst dps per point at enhancement end tree but those are still better than reverberation or call of flame but lot worser than elemental fury. But we got lot of points and get almoust all dps talents. My best guess is this at lvl 80.

Looks good to me although ofc the site you used doesn't have the new talents. As such you were unable to put 1 pt in Lava Lash. I'm guessing from what you said that you'd suggest moving 1 pt from Call of Flame to Lava Lash to give War Tools :: Talent tree Shaman Beta changes 8926 Upcoming info

Pitbuller · 09/17/08, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ardonomus

I see, thanks for that. But that still brings us up to 15.77*14=220.78, we'll need 221 hit rating to be spell hit capped?

I'm just confused where the 177 (11.22%?) rating came from?

1% spell hit need only 12.6 rating at 70lvl and 26.2 rating at 80lvl.
So we capping spell hit is only:
70lvl: 14 * 12.6 = 177(rounded next integer)
80lvl: 14 * 26.2 = 368(rounded...)

This will give us 11.22% melee hit without talents.

Levva: Thanks for updated calculator link. That wass just what I tried but forget to save lava lash point.

Edit: Assuming misery or faerie fire. 3% spell hit.

Ardonomus · 09/17/08, 6:34 AM

Thank you!

Afabar · 09/17/08, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

1% spell hit need only 12.6 rating at 70lvl and 26.2 rating at 80lvl.
So we capping spell hit is only:
70lvl: 14 * 12.6 = 177(rounded next integer)
80lvl: 14 * 26.2 = 368(rounded...)

This will give us 11.22% melee hit without talents.
...

I have miss something or Spell Hit Cap should be 17%.

Reply to myself : Yes I have miss Feary Fire buff.

Pitbuller · 09/17/08, 7:12 AM

How about our relic slot. We get seven pve, three pvp and three vendor replacement totems. But those got all same boring copy/paste effect. Is that database problem or are those just not ready yet?

Roywyn · 09/17/08, 7:22 AM

Hm, I'd like to point at two things.

1) Call of Thunder, 5% crit on Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning.

With the current numbers, it looks like just a 1% DPS talent that requires some serious sacrifices in Enhancement.
Not worth it now, but that may change in a more spell heavy environment?

It's more something to keep in mind for later or for odd gearing, whether that talent might become useful or not.
It most likely won't, but paradigms change, especially when you consider 2):

2) [Wraith Strike] and it's consequences.

It's a 2.6s Spell Power Fist MH weapon. According to some of Pitbuller's EP values, it's roughly equivalent to a 178 DPS Main Hand.
The Melee Mirror of it is [Kel'Thuzad's Reach], a 2.6s Melee Fist MH weapon with 156 DPS, same item level.

When you get the data for a proper entry level 10-man or 25-man gear, there are basically 2 questions that arise.

A) Is that weapon worth it? You should run the sim separately with both weapons, there might be more impact than simple EP can do. It doesn't look like there are any non-linear dependencies on Weapon and Spell damage, but better be safe.

B) If it is worth it, how much will it impact gearing?
At the very least, you'll have to maintain 2 different sets of EP values. One for Melee Main Hands, and one for Spell Main Hands.
I honestly have no clue how much they will differ. Melee and spells are simply too entangled for you.

The fact that Wraith Strike is the only Spell Power Fist weapon, that it is specifically a slow weapon and that it came out only after your changes strikes me as hint that it's specifically designed for Enhancement Shaman.
If not, caster/healer Shaman and Druids will make good use of it.

List of all Spell Power weapons, ordered by weapon speed:
Weapons - Items - World of Warcraft
There is a 2.6s green axe from Icecrown, axes being only for Shaman and Paladins.
Two 2.4s green maces, the rest is 2.3s and slower and feel like normal caster weapons. But they are maces, nothing new.

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

How about our relic slot. We get seven pve, three pvp and three vendor replacement totems. But those got all same boring copy/paste effect. Is that database problem or are those just not ready yet?

Obvious placerholder is _______.

If I were to design relics, I'd wait until the first DPS/Power pass to see which abilities are worth being buffed by relics and how much.
You can slap generic stats into an item with only a rough idea how a class works. You can't do that with relic effects really.

Hm, clarification in case I misunderstood: These are the current stats in game now. No one know what they'll be changed into.

Pitbuller · 09/17/08, 8:59 AM

I think [Wraith Strike] graphic and weapon category is Blizzard hint to casual players that these kind weapons are equal option for us. [Hammer of the Astral Plane] don't give feeling that it would be good dps with flametongue. Both these weapons beat melee counterparts by 2-3% margin. Margin is small enough that spell parts of our skill don't need nerfs or melee side buffs. When we start raiding perfect spell rotation(priority list) is just dream and actual melee weapon might be safer choice.

Cronus · 09/17/08, 9:05 AM

Edit: deleted, Levva already postet a updated Talent Calculator.

Sprout · 09/17/08, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by Maritiku

Correct me if Im wrong but currently on PTR you can have 3 major glyphs and 3 minor Glyphs.

I currently have the WF glyph, SS glyph, and SoE glyph, atm the SS glyph appears to only be 8% more nature and hasnt been changed to 8% frost fire nature yet.

As I stated I am assuming the SS glyph will be updated to reflect how they want SS to work. If it is nature only it is obviously less useful. The irony being that it would be MORE useful at 70 before we get LvB.

As for the # of glyphs and the current level of the SS glyph, it appears I was going on older information. If the PTR is allowing you to do 3 majors, does that mean that inscribers can do 4? Or are they not allowed an extra major like I had read.

Sorry about the confusion, the information out there is scattered at best.

Right now I am planning to dump Alch, but I also heard that the potion debuff was removed in the PTR. If thats true alch may still be viable in 3.0

Vaeys · 09/17/08, 9:30 AM

There is no "potion sickness" debuff - however (after just checking then), when you drink a potion, all other potions are disabled until you leave combat, at which point the 2 minute cooldown starts. So you'll still be limited to one potion per fight.

Levva · 09/17/08, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sprout

As I stated I am assuming the SS glyph will be updated to reflect how they want SS to work. If it is nature only it is obviously less useful. The irony being that it would be MORE useful at 70 before we get LvB.

As for the # of glyphs and the current level of the SS glyph, it appears I was going on older information. If the PTR is allowing you to do 3 majors, does that mean that inscribers can do 4? Or are they not allowed an extra major like I had read.

Sorry about the confusion, the information out there is scattered at best.

Right now I am planning to dump Alch, but I also heard that the potion debuff was removed in the PTR. If thats true alch may still be viable in 3.0

The glyphs are 3 major and 3 minor arranged in a circle on your glyphs tab with a glaringly obvious space in the centre for an extra glyph slot. I assume that when you take Inscription and manage to level it up to the point you get an extra slot that it appears in the centre of your existing circle of glyphs.

Potion sickness debuff was indeed removed. ie: you no longer see a debuff. I am not sure if the effect still exists however. I haven't heard the alchemists up in arms though so I suspect its removed totally.

Rouncer · 09/17/08, 1:26 PM

Alchemy got some very nice buffs for PvP and PvE so you might want to reconsider dumping it.

There are now Potions that are "Alchemist only" that can be used in the Arena (1 heal pot and 1 mana pot) and Alchemists also get increased effects from all elixirs now too, so a Flask of Relentless Assault will give an Alchemist 180 AP instead of 120 and the new flask is 180AP so an Alchemist should get 270AP from using that.

All of the professions were given some really amazing things so I would really hold off on dumping anything until you see how they all pan out. The gathering professions aren't anywhere near as good but at this stage of things I really could see their bonuses being increased so that they are on par with the others.

Dombrovo · 09/17/08, 1:37 PM

Having read through the last couple of pages to try and ascertain what I should be chainging my gems to come 3.0, I am still very confused.
Running a mac at the moment so I cant use enhSim.
Is it still too early to figure out exact EP values for 3.0, as well as what specifically should be going in gem slots of any given colour.
Or is it floating around and I have just not seen it?

Malan · 09/17/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dombrovo

Running a mac at the moment so I cant use enhSim.

Yes you can, you just have to compile it yourself and the gui won't work.

Dombrovo · 09/17/08, 2:05 PM

Ahh sweet, will get right onto that, question still stands though, any accepted values and/or gems coem out of the woodwork yet?

Bigbare · 09/17/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Also armor penetration rating is still big question mark.

Doesnt look to be to much of a question mark in this thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...p7/#post894469. Appears to be pretty useless against low armor debuffed bosses specifically. Its still good for soloing, but for raiding if this testing is correct it takes a huge hit to effectiveness after 3.0.2 hits live.

Toots Hepcat · 09/17/08, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dombrovo

Ahh sweet, will get right onto that, question still stands though, any accepted values and/or gems coem out of the woodwork yet?

I've been mucking around with the simulator all day, and this is something you're going to want to try for yourself.

Both Crit Rating and Hit Rating gems are very good, superior to AP but inferior to Expertise. Which is best depends on your gear, your rotation and your weapons imbue.

It looks like WF on the offhand selects for crit rating, and FT on the offhand selects for hit rating. Slow WF/Slow WF is more dps for my gear on the first day of 3.0, but if I had faster (2.5s) weapons or more haste, WF/FT would be superior...and if you're using FT, fast weapons are a little better than slow ones.

Of course, once Wrath comes out we'll have green quality Expertise Rating gems, and these should be stacked to the cap.

Gehenna · 09/17/08, 5:14 PM

Ideally, like rogues, we need to determine the the amount of DPS gain from speed acceleration, so we know how to take 1.8 mutilate dagger over super fast ax.

A current example would be one of the myriad daggers in SWP (including KJ's) vs Twin's fist.

Hothgor · 09/17/08, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gehenna

Ideally, like rogues, we need to determine the the amount of DPS gain from speed acceleration, so we know how to take 1.8 mutilate dagger over super fast ax.

A current example would be one of the myriad daggers in SWP (including KJ's) vs Twin's fist.

Flametongue and Maelstrom weapon will scale much better/faster with a faster weapon than a slower one. If you aren't going to use WF on your offhand, you should be going for the fastest weapon possible with decent dps.

Raut · 09/17/08, 5:59 PM

Someone had brought this scaling issue to the attention of the devs, I hope? The procs from fast will out-weigh the added damage from heavier SS. I was hoping scaling would keep them in line so we're not stuck with just the reverse OH situation we've faced in all of BC.

Mman · 09/17/08, 6:45 PM

Ideally both speeds would work and it wouldn't matter, but even if they scale together, you are going to have to pick the right weapon enchant/crit vs hit/rotation to take advantage your setup. If both ways to become viable (slw/slw, slw/fst) how will Blizzard get that info across to your average player? Look at how hard it is to get some Shaman to put a slow green weapon in their offhand over some purple fast dagger. The game just doesn't communicate very well what the best gear is for a slot.

I think having flexibility in weapon speed is a good thing, but the developers should make it so that we always use one enchant on the offhand, whether FT or WF.

Pitbuller · 09/17/08, 6:52 PM

How off-hand speed interact with dps? Lot's of sim runs and I get this table.
2.6s wf and 1.3-2.6s ft.

1.3 = 3350dps
1.4 = 3333dps
1.5 = 3316dps
1.6 = 3305dps
1.7 = 3294dps
1.8 = 3284dps
1.9 = 3279dps
2.0 = 3274dps
2.1 = 3272dps
2.2 = 3272dps
2.3 = 3272dps
2.4 = 3272dps
2.5 = 3272dps
2.6 = 3287dps

Result was not linear but still not suprising.
2 * 2.6 wf was 3237dps.
I used 70lvl wotlk build without glyps. If you use 3*wf glyph then slow/slow with wf wins.

Edit: I allways use default BestDpsBuild.txt config.
With this build.
Rotation is:

rotation_priority_count         6
rotation_priority1              mw_lb
rotation_priority2              ss
rotation_priority3              ll
rotation_priority4              fs
rotation_priority5              es
rotation_priority6              ls

When you reach 5/5 elemental ruin then lava lash go below shocks.

Tolsmir · 09/17/08, 6:57 PM

I am relatively new poster so pardon me if this question has already been asked and answered. If it has please direct me to the post with the information I seek. I have been attempting to do some research on my own but I cannot seem to come to anything conclusive on what weapon speed and imbue I should be using come WotLK much less 3.0 live. Can someone please explain this or direct me to where it's been explained?

Edit; The post above mine must have been put up while I was typing. It helps some but I would still like more information on the topic if anyone else can offer some.

Toots Hepcat · 09/17/08, 7:16 PM

Pitbuller, this data is useless without also disclosing the gear values and buffs you were using.

I have been doing tests using my current gear and arriving at the exact opposite conclusion -- that Slow/Slow is superior. My simulated DPS is about half yours as well.