Ironically rotation without flame shock and lava burst(4280dps) is par with rotation without lightning bolt(4295). Combined rotation hit(4520dps).
Orlgin never prioritize stromstrike. Allways priorize maelstorm 5stack. Problem is that you lose so many crits (2*SS + x*wf + 1.5s auto attack) if you sit pile of maelstorm stack. Pretend maelstorm is like hot potato or something you have to get rid of full stack fast. Also Yuo don't have enough glyphs to get earth shock one.(wf,ss + str totem)
The advantage of Flame Shock --> Lava Burst is 100% ED uptime, the extra damage from the Lava burst critical when that burst wouldn't naturally crit and the DoT component damage prior to being consumed.
The advantage of Earth Shock ---> Deals almost double damage of flame shock upfront. On criticals, the damage difference is quite significant. The stormstrike debuff adds to this difference. Another big advantage is the 0.5 sec GCD cost which is one second less than Flame Shock if you use the glyph.
Why is the one second important? Because Stormstrike has an 8 second cooldown and the GCD is 1.5 sec. That one second combined with enough spell haste to account for lag means you get 9 seconds of abilities which means instead of doing stormstrike + 4 abilities, you can do stormstrike + 5 abilities.
In other words, you buy an entire GCD every 8 seconds. If you can put a damaging ability in that time, that bonus gets added to the advantage of Earth Shock. The advantage of not needing a glyph spot goes to Flame Shock.
Which one is better depends on your build. Faster styles produce more Maelstrom procs which means the extra GCDs can be used for more damage. Slower styles mean less Maelstrom procs which favors Flame Shock.
Since I tend to focus on testing with a fast off-hand, I prefer the Earth Shock style. ED uptime won't be 100% and I live with that. Pitbuller has pointed out that the ED uptime isn't having a huge effect on the sim so that might be a problem in the sim and it could be a lot worse.
But I wanted to bring this up because I'm not seeing much if any testing using the Earth Shock glyph. It's actually quite good. If you want more GCDs, this is a good way to do it. If you have low spell critical, this won't work though.
Edit: good point about how many criticals I lose. I'll move Maelstrom up and do more testing. That might explain the big variances I'm getting. Thanks Pitbuller.
Orlgin you seem very confident when you talk about your rotation. It deals 240dps less and uses one glyph more. Which glyph you gonna replace? Wf, SS or str totem? Es glyph add only 44dps. You use priority list so why you don't priorize highest dps skills?(maelstorm) Ed uptime have huge impact. But when you get uptime from 80% to 100% that ins't big deal.(3.5spell per 10s with 35% crit.) It's only 1.8% crit. Yuor rotation was better than it sound at start but ins't best either. With very high crit rates 50% melee and 40% spell unbuffed you rotation is actual best.
Have we got definitive numbers yet for spell hit and expertise for what is required at 80 to hit the caps. A table will be required to account for things like effects of certain base abilities like 1% for Draenei racials, some talents, availability of some raid buffs etc.
I could well imagine such a table being a useful part of the TTT, to give a quick lookup to prevent unnecessary over capping when gearing. Something similar to Spell hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft was what I was thinking of.
Have we got definitive numbers yet for spell hit and expertise for what is required at 80 to hit the caps. A table will be required to account for things like effects of certain base abilities like 1% for Draenei racials, some talents, availability of some raid buffs etc.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but with how much of everything we need at 80 as far as stats go to not, well, suck... have they said ANYTHING about lowering those caps/weights whatever you want to call them? 557 hit rating is just insane in my eyes as I didn't even have 130 on live and I don't have nearly enough gear to toss into socketed places +5 hit and agility gems.
Looking at how much everyone needs it seems they need to lower things a bit. 83 agility per crit for example is a bit much unless all gear is going to come with copious amounts of state allowances on them.
I really doubt we'll be hitting the spell cap to be honest, I don't think it will be possible unless Improved Dual Wield is changed to affect spell hit.
557 hit rating is just insane in my eyes as I didn't even have 130 on live and I don't have nearly enough gear to toss into socketed places +5 hit and agility gems.
Nobody is saying you need to hit cap. Certainly not hit cap your melee. Spell hit is only 26.23 for 1%, so it will take much less to reach that cap. There is also currently a ton of +hit on gear right now.
130 rating from T7.25. Hit rating on three pieces of five. Epic hit gems give you 20 rating. Stuff like Battlemaster's Accuracy with 95 hit rating. Boots of the Neverending Path with it's 66 rating. It's far from impossible and the sim will tell if it's viable.
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
With misery or Improved faeri fire spell hit cap drops to ~367 or 341 if draenai in group. With 25man naxx gear we cap spell hit without big effort. Before that gemming hit is good option if our mechanics stay even close how those are now.
Spell hit cap is 446 for Horde and 420 for alliance but keep in mind, you'll get 3% from shadow priests in a raid so it's more like 367 for Horde and 341 for alliance. These are quite reachable numbers.
Expertise cap is 6.5% dodge x 32.79 = 213.135 round up to 214.
To answer Pitbuller, the Windfury Glyph was the one I was looking to cut. I really like the SoE glyph and the Stormstrike Glyph but Windfury Glyph was the most questionable in my mind. Until I know how much DPS that Glyph will give, I can't tell you which one is better. If both glyphs are really good when it's all said and done, I'll take Inscription and get the extra glyph it offers. And yes, I'm using numbers that are too high. I'll adjust downward.
It will take 296 hit rating to be hit capped on melee specials assuming no talents. That translates to 11.24% spell hit, which leaves 150 rating that will count as both spell hit rating and melee hit, which would leave us at 13.6% melee hit. The value of those 150 itemization points is yet to be determined but no doubt will be reasonably good, if not optimal.
Looking at actual gear, the Naxx-25 Tier pieces have 136 hit on them. There is a trinket Grim Toll with another 83 hit on it. The only other iLvl 213 mail pieces I could find in a non-set slot was a pair of boots with 39 hit Pack-Ice Striders and a belt with with 29 hit Torn Web Wrapping. That puts it at 287 hit rating on 7 pieces of armor and a trinket, with no gems. So it shouldn't be too hard to hit the special hit cap without grabbing a lot of leather but the availability of other pieces will be interesting to see (I didn't dig into the 10 man gear). I suspect that trinket will be the best one to use for quite a while though.
It will take 296 hit rating to be hit capped on melee specials assuming no talents. That translates to 11.24% spell hit, which leaves 150 rating that will count as both spell hit rating and melee hit, which would leave us at 13.6% melee hit. The value of those 150 itemization points is yet to be determined but no doubt will be reasonably good, if not optimal.
Looking at actual gear, the Naxx-25 Tier pieces have 136 hit on them. There is a trinket Grim Toll with another 83 hit on it. The only other iLvl 213 mail pieces I could find in a non-set slot was a pair of boots with 39 hit Pack-Ice Striders and a belt with with 29 hit Torn Web Wrapping. That puts it at 287 hit rating on 7 pieces of armor and a trinket, with no gems. So it shouldn't be too hard to hit the special hit cap without grabbing a lot of leather but the availability of other pieces will be interesting to see (I didn't dig into the 10 man gear). I suspect that trinket will be the best one to use for quite a while though.
We only need 3% hit or ~96 hit rating to be special hit capped, thanks to Dual Wield Specialization. ~64 if your a Draenei :P
I really doubt we'll be hitting the spell cap to be honest, I don't think it will be possible unless Improved Dual Wield is changed to affect spell hit.
If Im reading the numbers correctly, we would need 442 hit to get the spell cap (416 for squids). thats about 4x what I have now on my mixed T6 set, and about double what is 'reasonable' if going for hit in BC.
For comparrison
T7 (3 pieces with hit)-
130 with no gems
3red, 2 blue, 1 yellow, 1 meta (52 total hit)
Feet [Pack-Ice Striders]
39
Yah you can't link wowhead items from the wotlk.wowhead site, the script on the forums that looks up the item info translates it back to normal wowhead site.
Tukez, when inputting data into your sim do you want us to only add the stats that are coming from gear or should we be including everything on the paper doll?
I ask since your sim GUI has a place to add specific talents and I want to make sure I am not adding the stats from the paper doll (that includes the talents already) and then the GUI is adding them back in a second time.
For instance my paper doll shows (after regemming and reenchanting) AP=2402 but that is taking into account 233AP given by Mental Dexterity due to my Intellect. Another example would be my paper doll shows 720 Spellpower but all of that is due to Mental Quickness.
When you input stats should you only be inputting the pure stats based on your equipment (and your characters base stats) and then letting the GUI figure out how much Spellpower you get from the 3 points in Mental Quickness or should you just be inputting the stats shown on your paper doll which already include those talents?
(This is why I like the GUI from Rawr since there you just tell it what items you have and what your talent build is and it figures out what that means in regards to running the "sim")
Tukez, when inputting data into your sim do you want us to only add the stats that are coming from gear or should we be including everything on the paper doll?
You always input the data which shows on your paper doll.
You always input the data which shows on your paper doll.
I would suggest in the config that you add comments indicating whether each input is desired as rating or %, you have it there for some, but not others, and in a few cases I wasn't really sure.
Some things have come to light in regards to SS debuffs. The following do not consume charges but still gain the benefit:
Flametongue Weapon Procs
Flame Shock DoTs
Static Shock Procs
With the ways our dps numbers are aligning, it seems it was an intentional design on Blizzards part to make FT and WF weapon enchants give us almost the exact same DPS over time. A few % less on the SS glyph and there would never have been a discussion on this matter. Would it be safe to assume that the 'debate' is over so to speak? Use whatever weapon enchant you want~
You always input the data which shows on your paper doll.
That's wrong, it's not working that way.
I just ran Sims with Mental Quickness at 0 and at 3 points with Spellpower set to 0 and the values were different for each one which means your sim is including the talents you have listed so it's not paper doll values.
If the talent selector is doing something and you are already accounting for it when you input your stats from the paper doll then the talent is being counted twice so all those numbers people are throwing around are as if they had double the spellpower they get from Mental Quickness and twice the AP they get from Mental Dexterity and double the intellect from Ancestral Knowledge.
I just ran a bunch of Sims with different options selected and the talent selectors are definitely changing things.
With 3/3 MQ 3/3 MD 651 Spellpower and 2402AP the sim shows me with ~2071dps (with regular consistancy)
With 0/3 MQ 0/3 MD 651 Spellpower and 2402AP the sim shows me with ~1973dps
With 3/3 MQ 0/3 MD 0 Spellpower and 2169AP the sim shows ~1847dps (the AP is what it would be without MD)
With 3/3 MQ 0/3 MD 651 Spellpower and 2169AP the sim gives ~1959dps
I ran a bunch more but that should be enough to see that something is active in the talent selectors so that if you are inputting paper doll info and selecting the talents you are substantially increasing the effects of those talents.
Originally Posted by Hothgor
Some things have come to light in regards to SS debuffs. The following do not consume charges but still gain the benefit:
Flametongue Weapon Procs
Flame Shock DoTs
Static Shock Procs
With the ways our dps numbers are aligning, it seems it was an intentional design on Blizzards part to make FT and WF weapon enchants give us almost the exact same DPS over time. A few % less on the SS glyph and there would never have been a discussion on this matter. Would it be safe to assume that the 'debate' is over so to speak? Use whatever weapon enchant you want~
Flame Shock dot ticks were gaining the benefit but Flametongue Weapon procs were not from my testing.
Even if it was affecting Flametongue procs there is still no way that Flametongue on the mainhand will equal the dps of mainhand WF procs with a working rank 8.
The following do not consume charges but still gain the benefit:
Flametongue Weapon Procs
Flame Shock DoTs
Static Shock Procs
If this is intended, it would be nice if the tooltip was adjusted accordingly, to something more akin to the Improved Shadow Bolt talent in the Warlock Destruction tree. Say, "Instantly attack with both weapons. In addition, increase the Nature, Fire, and Frost damage dealt to the target by 20% until 2 non-passive or periodic damage sources are applied by the Shaman." Of course, that's only if it's a global change, and all non-direct spells and abilities we have are benefiting from the debuff but not consuming charges, which still seems to be in question.
[e] Also, the part of the conversation in this thread has derailed into questions and concerns about the sim--for the sake of organization and searching, can we try to keep the two conversations separate?
09/24/08, 3:36 AM
