Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 85

Malan · 09/24/08, 2:18 PM

Hopefully this patch going in right now will fix our windfury ranks so we can do some proper dps testing.

chocos · 09/24/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

That's wrong, it's not working that way.

I just ran Sims with Mental Quickness at 0 and at 3 points with Spellpower set to 0 and the values were different for each one which means your sim is including the talents you have listed so it's not paper doll values.

If the talent selector is doing something and you are already accounting for it when you input your stats from the paper doll then the talent is being counted twice so all those numbers people are throwing around are as if they had double the spellpower they get from Mental Quickness and twice the AP they get from Mental Dexterity and double the intellect from Ancestral Knowledge.

I just ran a bunch of Sims with different options selected and the talent selectors are definitely changing things.

I believe it is coded so that the talents affect the obtained stats from raid buffs, pots, and dynamic buffs like UR, so you would expect to see a difference between mental quickness at 0 and 3, even with 0 paperdoll spell power.

tukez · 09/24/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

That's wrong, it's not working that way.

I just ran Sims with Mental Quickness at 0 and at 3 points with Spellpower set to 0 and the values were different for each one which means your sim is including the talents you have listed so it's not paper doll values.

If the talent selector is doing something and you are already accounting for it when you input your stats from the paper doll then the talent is being counted twice so all those numbers people are throwing around are as if they had double the spellpower they get from Mental Quickness and twice the AP they get from Mental Dexterity and double the intellect from Ancestral Knowledge.

I just ran a bunch of Sims with different options selected and the talent selectors are definitely changing things.

With 3/3 MQ 3/3 MD 651 Spellpower and 2402AP the sim shows me with ~2071dps (with regular consistancy)

With 0/3 MQ 0/3 MD 651 Spellpower and 2402AP the sim shows me with ~1973dps

With 3/3 MQ 0/3 MD 0 Spellpower and 2169AP the sim shows ~1847dps (the AP is what it would be without MD)

With 3/3 MQ 0/3 MD 651 Spellpower and 2169AP the sim gives ~1959dps

I ran a bunch more but that should be enough to see that something is active in the talent selectors so that if you are inputting paper doll info and selecting the talents you are substantially increasing the effects of those talents.

Of course the talents do something. For example, with UR, attack power changes and the sim needs to know do you have MD or not. Also the buffs are affected with some talents etc etc. I don't see anything too horrible with those numbers you posted.

Low Life · 09/24/08, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

That's wrong, it's not working that way.

I just ran Sims with Mental Quickness at 0 and at 3 points with Spellpower set to 0 and the values were different for each one which means your sim is including the talents you have listed so it's not paper doll values.

If the talent selector is doing something and you are already accounting for it when you input your stats from the paper doll then the talent is being counted twice so all those numbers people are throwing around are as if they had double the spellpower they get from Mental Quickness and twice the AP they get from Mental Dexterity and double the intellect from Ancestral Knowledge.

You need to set everything that increases your AP during the fight off when trying this - this means weapon enchants, trinkets, unleashed rage, any str/agi/int buffs you might get et cetera. Anything that increases your AP is going to increase your spell power with mental quickness. I'm getting the same numbers with 0/3 and 3/3 mental quickness.

edit: Delete this if you want, we shouldn't need three people explaining the same off-topic thing.

Rouncer · 09/24/08, 3:34 PM

Sorry about that.

I've been trying to figure out how Pitbuller gets such high EP values for Spellpower considering I don't seem to get anywhere over 0.6 even when I change out to a fast weapon with flametongue and I thought I found an issue with the Sim that was causing that discrepancy.

(I meant to post it all in the Sim thread too, but I had both open and I tend to copy/paste my posts after all my experiences posting in the Blizzard forums and having my posts eaten so it ended up in the wrong thread by accident).

My next thing will be to try and determine real values to input into the Sim based on the armor I could reasonably expect to be wearing when I get into Naxx at level 80 and see what kind of EP values I get from the sim based on that.

Levva · 09/24/08, 6:56 PM

I noticed this in the new build

Mana Spring Totem now restores 30 mana every 2 seconds. (Old - 90 mana every 5 seconds)

Which even with the smooth flow of regen is a slight nerf. 90 mp5 -> 75 mp5. The question of mana viability with LS rather than WS may raise its head. Has anyone tested how our mana holds up in fights?

Pitbuller · 09/24/08, 8:13 PM

You can find Ep values, config and dps breakdown from here.

Now I talk about weapon choises. If you disagree with me then sim it again and then report from different values. These are just numbers and numbers tend to change often.
1.4 speed weapon is faster regular speed so this is minimum weapon speed that I use.
2.6 speed weapon is slowest regular speed so this is maximum weapon speed that I use.

2.6wf/2.6wf : 4217.19dps
2.6wf/2.6ft : 4273.52dps
2.6wf/1.4wf : 3981.37dps
2.6wf/1.4ft : 4354.71dps(3rd.)

1.4wf/1.4wf : 3960.92dps
1.4wf/1.4ft : 4383.50dps
1.4wf/2.6ft : 4226.93dps
1.4wf/2.6wft : 4018.57dps

2.6ft/2.6wf : 4007.64dps
2.6ft/2.6ft : 4179.99dps
2.6ft/1.4ft : 4296.95dps
2.6ft/1.4wf : 3941.10dps

1.4ft/1.4wf : 4182.58dps
1.4ft/1.4ft : 4585.08dps(1st.)
1.4ft/2.6ft : 4383.59dps(2nd.)
1.4ft/2.6wf : 4181.66dps

Every combination is "viable". If you gear and glyph for it. I used wf glyph for every run so double ft combos lost some potential.
I am disapointed some numbers but those can change and hopely those will. Lightning daggers look too viable but even then melee gear is best. Spell power weapons is next test subject(Free hint: those are extremely op. 4745dps with 1.6s+1.4s with ft)

Rouncer · 09/24/08, 8:23 PM

Newest Build

Stormstrike shows in the combatlog and on Recount so thats good but Windfury Weapon ranks above 5 still don't add any bonus AP.

Hothgor · 09/24/08, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Newest Build

Stormstrike shows in the combatlog and on Recount so thats good but Windfury Weapon ranks above 5 still don't add any bonus AP.

The results above indicate its essentially a non-problem.

Timewasted · 09/24/08, 9:20 PM

I had a random thought today about spirit wolves with regard to raid buffs, such as battle shout and blessing of might. Would it be reasonable to request that when the wolves are summoned, they start with some of the buffs that we have? For example, we have 30 seconds left on battle shout when we summon the wolves, and they spawn with 30 seconds left on battle shout.

Is there anything blatantly stupid I'm missing that could arise from something like this?

mek · 09/24/08, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

I noticed this in the new build

[mana spring change]

Which even with the smooth flow of regen is a slight nerf. 90 mp5 -> 75 mp5. The question of mana viability with LS rather than WS may raise its head. Has anyone tested how our mana holds up in fights?

I don't know what the patch notes are talking about, but if Mana Spring was ever restoring mana per 5, and not mana per 2, I didn't notice it, it must have been an extremely short-lived or internal-only change. Mana Spring Totem is pulsing every 2 seconds just as it always has.

Malan · 09/24/08, 11:43 PM

Spirit wolves got a nice HP boost, 12k each. They can actually survive now.

dlanod · 09/25/08, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

If both glyphs are really good when it's all said and done, I'll take Inscription and get the extra glyph it offers.

Inscription no longer offers the extra glyph as of one of the most recent patches, so you're limited to the best three either way. They get BoP shoulder enchants instead.

Deadstar · 09/25/08, 2:39 AM

Interesting little tidbit, our relic covers our four totems now. We don't have to haul them around in our bags anymore.

Orlgin · 09/25/08, 2:47 AM

Thanks for the information, dlanod. While the Earth Shock glyph may be better later, the Windfury one is superior now so that decides that.

Rouncer · 09/25/08, 3:08 AM

Originally Posted by Deadstar

Interesting little tidbit, our relic covers our four totems now. We don't have to haul them around in our bags anymore.

What relic?

Low Life · 09/25/08, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

What relic?

The equippable totem relics, such as Stonebreaker's Totem. "Counts as an Air, Earth, Fire and Water totem."

Artoxia · 09/25/08, 4:05 AM

Thanks for your Simulations Pitbuller. I'm a little bit disappointed by the results. I really love my "big" numbers with double syphon/ double wf. I do not hope that 1.4/1.4 ft/ft is going to be the best choice for enhancement shamans

Orlgin · 09/25/08, 5:06 AM

Lightning knives isn't as good as having a caster weapon in the main-hand enchanted with Windfury. The reason is that caster weapons are plain broken for us. The DPS difference isn't nearly as powerful as having all that spellpower. Another thing I noticed is that FT is overperforming in the sim.

Weev · 09/25/08, 5:52 AM

"Elemental is off right now. Enhancement is off too, but in the opposite direction, which makes me think there is just a bug somewhere. "

Lets wait and see what happens over the next few builds before we start bidding on those caster weapons.

Ghostcrawler - http://source

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 5:59 AM

SimulationCraft has been updated for patch 8982. The list of classes now supported includes: Druid, Mage, Priest, Shaman, Warlock.

Multi-player simulation that supports user-specified talent setups and action priority lists.

The config file has been enhanced to support MMO-Champion talent tree links.

Using Naxx-10 baseline gear:

shaman=Shaman_Enhancement
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman=052030150000000000000000000000000000000000000000003020503300502135331131231050
actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/stormstrike/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1/lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5/searing_totem/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/flame_shock/earth_shock/lava_lash/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35
gear_agility=600
gear_stamina=800
gear_intellect=400
gear_attack_power=1500
gear_spell_power=0
gear_attack_hit_rating=250
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_attack_crit_rating=250
gear_spell_crit_rating=250
gear_attack_expertise_rating=150
gear_attack_penetration=500
gear_haste_rating=200
main_hand=fist,damage=310,speed=2.8,enchant=mongoose
off_hand=fist,damage=310,speed=2.8,enchant=executioner
glyph_earth_shock=0
glyph_strength_of_earth=1
glyph_windfury_weapon=1
glyph_stormstrike=1
glyph_lightning_shield=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

Player=Shaman_Enhancement  DPS=4121.5  DPR=15.4  RPS=268.1/425.3  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=116  agility=726  stamina=1007  intellect=556  spirit=132  health=13250  mana=12895
  Spell Stats:  power=733  hit=9.5%  crit=11.0%  penetration=0  haste=6.1%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=2444  hit=13.6%  crit=15.8%  expertise=4.6  penetration=500  haste=6.1%
  Actions:
    earth_shock           Count= 23.1|14.9sec  DPE=2398| 4%  DPET=1640  DPR= 4.0  Miss=4.5%  Hit=1868  CritHit=3740|3810|32.8%
    flame_shock           Count= 26.8|12.8sec  DPE=2345| 4%  DPET=1606  DPR= 4.4  Miss=4.6%  Hit=1032  CritHit=2064|2107|30.8%  Tick=231
    flametongue           Count=233.1| 1.5sec  DPE=1053|17%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=4.4%  Hit= 939  CritHit=1410|1446|32.8%
    lava_burst            Count=  9.6|36.0sec  DPE=5207| 4%  DPET=3575  DPR=14.7  Miss=4.5%  CritHit=5455|5567|95.5%
    lava_lash             Count= 43.6| 7.9sec  DPE= 984| 3%  DPET= 579  DPR= 5.6  Miss=0.0%  Hit= 801  CritHit=1603|1652|30.6%
    lightning_bolt        Count= 25.0|13.7sec  DPE=2796| 5%  DPET=1925  DPR= 7.9  Miss=4.5%  Hit=2183  CritHit=4367|4442|32.5%
    lightning_shield      Count= 35.7| 9.6sec  DPE=1284| 3%  DPET=7011  DPR= inf  Miss=4.8%  Hit=1349
    melee_main_hand       Count=203.1| 1.7sec  DPE=1325|19%  DPET= 785  DPR= inf  Miss=13.3%  Hit=1282  CritHit=2564|2643|30.5%
    melee_off_hand        Count=201.9| 1.7sec  DPE= 662| 9%  DPET= 390  DPR= inf  Miss=13.4%  Hit= 641  CritHit=1282|1322|30.5%
    searing_totem         Count=  9.2|37.2sec  DPE=1854| 1%  DPET=1546  DPR=11.5  Miss=13.5%  Tick=68  CritTick=135|136|12.7%
    stormstrike           Count= 39.9| 8.6sec  DPE=2288| 6%  DPET=1346  DPR= 2.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2055  CritHit=3347|3965|30.0%
    windfury              Count=125.6| 2.7sec  DPE=2662|24%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2221  CritHit=4443|4581|29.6%

Pitbuller · 09/25/08, 6:12 AM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Lightning knives isn't as good as having a caster weapon in the main-hand enchanted with Windfury. The reason is that caster weapons are plain broken for us. The DPS difference isn't nearly as powerful as having all that spellpower. Another thing I noticed is that FT is overperforming in the sim.

You didn't even tested it?
With caster waepon I mean that I take 53.5wDps and give 450spellpower. Other stats remain same.
Config is same than last time but some minor changed maded so dps is little lower.
Fastest regular caster weapon speed is 1.6s.
Slowest caster weapon speed is 2.6s

1.6ft/1.4ft: 4619dps
1.6wf/1.4ft 4414dps
2.6wf/2.6t: 4415dps
2.6ft/2.6ff: 4415dps
Too lazy to test dozen combination more. But those should be inferior.
Remeber that in Wotlk caster weapon base dps scale but in Tbc that remain static. So don't try caster weapon before expansion.

Flametongue bug is that in sim you get two flametongue procs and at live you get only one when stormstriking. But which one is bug? This isn't so big. Only one flametongue proc per 8s more or less than 50dps. Changing windfury glyph to flametongue glyph when using dual flametongue give about same dps what I dind't change. So all these sim results are valid.

Durnitol · 09/25/08, 6:20 AM

Well, you all asked for some testing on the 100% Spell Power , so here we go. I don't have a parser, so you'll just have to trust some numbers from my observations in recount.

Stats (out of combat), ungrouped, no external buffs:

Level: 70
Spec: 16/45/0
Weapons: Cudgel of Consecration / Fist of Molten Fury
Weapon buffs: FT/FT
Totems: SoE, FT, Mana Spring, WF
Glyphs: FT, SoE
Trinks: Xiri's Gift, Vengeance of the Illidari, used in SS/LL macro, so they were used every time the CD was up.
Relic: Stonebreaker's Totem

HP: 7766
Mana: 8633
SP: 1416
Hit rating: 32
Spell Crit %: 31.84
Melee Crit %: 28.72
AP: 913
MP5: 45
Wep Spd: 1.64/1.29
Haste rating: 0 (all haste comes from WF totem)

Comments before results:

1. I could not acquire Maelstrom Weapon AND Elemental Fury at 70, so I tried them independently. 5/5 elemental Fury had better DPS.
2. I tried this with more SP/ haste as well, losing 10% crit, and it was severely gimped by comparison to the crit maxing.
3. Stormstrike does NOT proc Flametongue Weapon, as I thought it would. I lose about 70 dps with the current stats due to this.

Rotation for linked spec:
Flame Shock/SS/LL/Earth Shock/SS/LL Repeat as cooldowns allow (SS is 8 sec, so you only get 3 for every 2 rotations)
Keep Lightning Shield up as much as possible. This was hard to remember.

Recount listed DPS: 1150 consistent
FT attack: 33.7%
Melee: 22.4%
Earth Shock: 12.6%
Lightning Shield: 10.1%
Flame Shock (DoT): 7.7%
Flame Shock: 7.3%
Stormstrike: 3.1%
Lava Lash: 3.1%

Gear:
[Netherstrike Breastplate]
[Netherstrike Bracers]
[Netherstrike Belt]
[Gloves of Centering]
[Shamanistic Helmet of Second Sight]
[Adornment of Stolen Souls]
[Merciless Gladiator's Mail Spaulders]
[Shadow-Cloak of Dalaran]
[Stormsong Kilt]
[Hurricane Boots]
[Ring of Unrelenting Storms]
[Violet Signet of the Archmage]
[Xi'ri's Gift]
[Vengeance of the Illidari]
[Stonebreaker's Totem]
[Cudgel of Consecration]
[Fist of Molten Fury]

Yes, in complete garbage (~Karazan level) gear, I got 1150 DPS at level 70 without any raid buffs, only my totems, glyphs, gear, and weapon enchants. This gear yielded 850 DPS raid buffed as Elemental spec pre-patch. My Enhancement gear was worse, and only dished out about 700 pre-patch.

Comments:
1. Elemental devastation was up a great deal more than I expected, over 60% by observation. I don't have precise numbers. With FlS/LvB in the rotation, this would effectively be 100%.
2. Crit rating is EVERYTHING to this spec/style, which does not stray too far from other posts I've seen about stat values.
3 Lava lash does not seem worth the talent in this style. It does provide the potential for an extra hit (therefore crit and LS), but I don't think it's worth the GCD.
4. My testing did not include Shamanistic Rage on purpose. After testing, I would definitely drop LL and get SR.
5. Mana was really not an issue thanks to Elemental Focus and Shamanistic Focus. With mana totem down, it took me 3 minutes to get 1/2 way through my mana bar. Adding Shamanistic Rage may likely prevent the need for potting at all.
6. Adding Maelstrom Weapon to this build would be extraordinary. Getting 5 stacked usually took ~6 seconds. Watching for the 5 stack was difficult, but the reward is sizable. I have 0 experience with LvB, obviously.
7. Lightning Shield hits for 955 on average with this build, thanks to SS debuff and other procs. With the 20% glyph, it was doing 1150 average. Keeping it up was hard to remember compared to the "never think about it" pre-patch.
8. I couldn't get Searing Totem to attack the training dummy, so I have no idea the difference between it and FT totem in terms of DPS. I would think the talents suggest that Searing is a marked improvement.
9. FT glyph adds 2% spell crit per enchant.
10. As mentioned by MANY people in this thread, threat is likely to be a problem since Spirit weapons has no effect on spell damage, and since 70% (or more with LvB at 80) of your attacks are spell based, this could cause problems. If spirit weapons covers all damage, then this should be easy to decide.
11. One of the big drawbacks to this whole idea is that it is basically not feasible until level 70. Pure melee is likely a better choice until you can get the full 5/5 Elemental Fury and at least tier 9 in Enhancement.

For testing this out at 80 (I can not), I would recommend the minimum build 16/52/0 +3. Take out Improved shields for Enhancing Totems if you like. I think the extra three are probably best spent in Reverberation, to minimize GCD problems and keep the LvB crit train running. For glyphs, you basically can't live without Flametongue. SoE is likely the best choice as a second Major since it helps everyone else too. After that, I would personally get Lightning Shield (as I would also spec Improved shields), but you may forego this for Earth Shock to save some GCD room during rotations, or even Stormstrike for that added bonus %. I haven't tested it, but it sounds worth having a go.

Njald · 09/25/08, 8:49 AM

Originally Posted by Artoxia

Thanks for your Simulations Pitbuller. I'm a little bit disappointed by the results. I really love my "big" numbers with double syphon/ double wf. I do not hope that 1.4/1.4 ft/ft is going to be the best choice for enhancement shamans

The use of caster weapon is the thing that most feels like a break with tradition and feel of enhancement and I hope enough Shamans/Beta testers agree so that we can lobby for making Melee weapons back into being the preferred weapon of choice.

It also feels like a failure and contradiction from Blizzards development team considering they worked a lot on making paladins using appropriate gear and then changing their gear to fit their roles. (tank in tanking gear,melee dps in melee gear)

Stopokingme · 09/25/08, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Deadstar

Interesting little tidbit, our relic covers our four totems now. We don't have to haul them around in our bags anymore.

Finally, can we destroy the old totems though? Currently on Live you get a 'That item can't be destroyed' message or something along that line.