I don't know what the patch notes are talking about, but if Mana Spring was ever restoring mana per 5, and not mana per 2, I didn't notice it, it must have been an extremely short-lived or internal-only change. Mana Spring Totem is pulsing every 2 seconds just as it always has.
Note I DID NOT say that it ticked every 5 seconds I said it used to give 90 mp5 which is 36 mana per tick. I completely agree it has always given mana on a tick/pulse. This has been nerfed in the patch to 30 mana per tick.
Note that it was always common to convert all mana restoration rates to mp5 regardless of what the effect was.
The wording seems to be the thing they changed from mp5 to mana per 2 seconds as well as the nerf ofc.
I did test them and I didn't trust the FT/FT results because I knew that the sim was showing too much damage for it.
You lose 8-9% of the FT procs when you use different speed weapons. That is a lot of damage. Using identical speed weapons apparently negates the loss which is something I didn't know (Thanks Naibot).
Based on that information, I had concluded that while the WF/FT numbers were pretty accurate, the FT/FT were inflated. It seems the 1.4/1.4 test was fairly accurate so there is more than one model with good DPS which is good news to me.
The 1.4/1.4 model is less mana efficient but does the same DPS. That would make WF/FT the best model.
Which is why I stated that. I should explain myself better in the future. I really need to get more sleep.
Edit: Simulationcraft is showing Enhance Shaman as top DPS now. This is consistent with our sims which means it is very likely we will get nerfed before WoLK goes live. Ghostcrawler also mentioned that Enhance was putting out too much DPS when he addressed Elemental concerns.
Low Life: Thanks for the clarification last page on the SimulationCraft "Damage Per Execute Time" thing. That makes sense.
Originally Posted by Orlgin
I did test them and I didn't trust the FT/FT results because I knew that the sim was showing too much damage for it.
You lose 8-9% of the FT procs when you use different speed weapons. That is a lot of damage. Using identical speed weapons apparently negates the loss which is something I didn't know (Thanks Naibot).
[edit] Nevermind. I read the updates to this thread before reading the other one, and didn't see that I'm not the only one wondering why this is happening. Oops.
I did some live tests a minute ago on the boss target dummy with 2 Naxx daggers...here is WF/WF:
FT/FT:
WF/FT:
Pretty much every test I have run with slow weapons has been in the 1700ish dps range.
[13:30] <JerleMinara> zyla you're cute you should've come to blizzcon
[13:31] <frot-prime> yeah you could have had sex with a dickgirl
[13:31] <Zyla> wouldnt be the first time
Edit: Simulationcraft is showing Enhance Shaman as top DPS now. This is consistent with our sims which means it is very likely we will get nerfed before WoLK goes live. Ghostcrawler also mentioned that Enhance was putting out too much DPS when he addressed Elemental concerns.
Watch them either pull Lightning Bolt off the list of spells that Maelstrom Weapon can affect (leaving Chain Lightning, Lava Burst and both Healing Waves) or change Flametongue Weapon's spell coefficient to scale with Weapon Speed or they will just cut the Stormstrike debuff's value in half.
There are many ways they could easily bring Enhancement back in line without having too negative of an effect on the new mechanics. Hell, they could always just leave everything just the way it is currently but then have us so threat capped, if we prioritize spells, that our dps ends up in the crapper.
Fast/Fast with caster weapons is not something that will work as well in PvP simply because we rarely get solid time on target in PvP. Slow/Slow works better there due to joisting and using Stormstrike (and in Wrath, Lava Lash) to force burst damage by combining instants with queued autoattacks. Especially since Windfury crits will give us Maelstrom charges just as fast as the quick weapons in a joisting situation.
So that leaves PvE and if we are fine in PvP it might be easier to do through threat instead of through a more perceptable dps nerf that would have PvP repercussions.
I did some live tests a minute ago on the boss target dummy with 2 Naxx daggers...here is WF/WF:
.
What addon are you using Enervate? Sorry if this seems to be a noob question but I removed any DPS meter and addon like that from my comp few month ago.
Ennervate - I notice that you have glancing blows in your FT tests but not the WF/WF tests. Was your dagger skill not maxed yet? That would certainly change the results at least a little. Also no misses or dodges on the WF test?
You lose 8-9% of the FT procs when you use different speed weapons. That is a lot of damage. Using identical speed weapons apparently negates the loss which is something I didn't know (Thanks Naibot).
Did a more accurate test to show the loss of procs when dual enchanting the same rank of flametongue:
That's with a 2.5/1.4 weapon combo for a duration of ~30min, overlapping swings result in a loss of 153 FT procs (8.7%).
Obviously there's a small hidden cooldown implemented for FT aswell, it's just not 'fixed' to work for crossranking (yet).
Same speed weapons tend to not go out of sync in ideal situations (no parries) so you probably won't notice it there unless you have a very high amount of haste stacked.
You lose 8-9% of the FT procs when you use different speed weapons. That is a lot of damage. Using identical speed weapons apparently negates the loss which is something I didn't know (Thanks Naibot).
Can you provide some data for this so that we can post it on the beta forum? (Or if you've got beta access you do it)
[e] Oh nevermind, guy above has some screenshots of it. I'll make a post.
Either Maelstrom will get the "this effect can only happen every X seconds" or FT will have a coefficient nerf, from the looks of things. In either of those cases, it'll probably diminish the value of spell power to an enhancement shaman, which will result in both putting enh shaman DPS back in line, as well as match blizzard's itemization for enh more.
What addon are you using Enervate? Sorry if this seems to be a noob question but I removed any DPS meter and addon like that from my comp few month ago.
Either Maelstrom will get the "this effect can only happen every X seconds" or FT will have a coefficient nerf, from the looks of things. In either of those cases, it'll probably diminish the value of spell power to an enhancement shaman, which will result in both putting enh shaman DPS back in line, as well as match blizzard's itemization for enh more.
Indeed that would be halfway sensible and consistent if they need to reduce our DPS. More likely however they will do something like reduce WF AP bonus or normalise our weapon speed dmg since we have been highlighting issues of OH weapon speed, to just totally screw us, and reduce our dps at the same time.
Ennervate - I notice that you have glancing blows in your FT tests but not the WF/WF tests. Was your dagger skill not maxed yet? That would certainly change the results at least a little. Also no misses or dodges on the WF test?
It's just because the attack highlighted in the WF/WF tests was Lava Lash, while in the FT tests it was melee.
Indeed that would be halfway sensible and consistent if they need to reduce our DPS. More likely however they will do something like reduce WF AP bonus or normalise our weapon speed dmg since we have been highlighting issues of OH weapon speed, to just totally screw us, and reduce our dps at the same time.
Probably what will end up happening.
Although if they did remove Lightning Bolt from the list of Spells that Maelstrom Weapon could work with it would be a significant nerf to the fast weapons since it would destroy our mana pool to start trying to alternate Chain Lightning with Lava Burst to utilize additional MW procs.
Most likely they will simply nerf Stormstrike's Debuff or just remove it all together. They could always have the 2 attacks applied as Nature damage (same mechanics as Lava Lash) if losing the debuff would drop us too low or reduce the value of the talent points spent in Stormstrike to the point where it wouldn't be worth taking.
Nothing will probably happen until they can get Windfury Weapon rank 8 working and see the numbers people are outputting with that.
I did test them and I didn't trust the FT/FT results because I knew that the sim was showing too much damage for it.
You lose 8-9% of the FT procs when you use different speed weapons. That is a lot of damage. Using identical speed weapons apparently negates the loss which is something I didn't know (Thanks Naibot).
Based on that information, I had concluded that while the WF/FT numbers were pretty accurate, the FT/FT were inflated. It seems the 1.4/1.4 test was fairly accurate so there is more than one model with good DPS which is good news to me.
The 1.4/1.4 model is less mana efficient but does the same DPS. That would make WF/FT the best model.
Which is why I stated that. I should explain myself better in the future. I really need to get more sleep.
Edit: Simulationcraft is showing Enhance Shaman as top DPS now. This is consistent with our sims which means it is very likely we will get nerfed before WoLK goes live. Ghostcrawler also mentioned that Enhance was putting out too much DPS when he addressed Elemental concerns.
Actually, same speed FT/FT were the test results that were NOT inflated. FT has NEVER had a cooldown on it, so it is probable that this is a bug introduced with the higher ranks of the enchant. Its less likely that they deliberately put in a small cooldown on FT a la Windfury in TBC - what would be the reason to do so?
The two highest dps tests done so far show that dual FT enchants are best, using a fast mh and slow offhand. This lines up perfectly with the dps tests I have been running on beta using the fast caster MH and the slow melee offhand to help inflate our lava burst damage. If the cooldown is intentional and the same speed proc the bug, double FT enchants are STILL the best for us at the moment. I still feel WF is the 'enhancement' weapon buff....only that its the buff we will be using for PvP instead of PvE :P
This may shed some light on the topics being discussed here.
Malan makes a good point. We try and instill a certain amount of depth and complexity into the game because that does reward a lot of experimentation.
I can say that we aren't thrilled about seeing Enhancement shammies in caster gear, with two fast weapons and dual FTs. We have some ideas that will shift Enhancement back to caring about AP more, while still letting you do a lot of spell damage, because that's a cool part of the class. I predict that WF / FT will be more popular, but you never know.
1) FT does have a cooldown on Live right now. Search the wow forums and you'll see that has been known for a while. So that is false.
2) Why are you explaining to me that 1.4/1.4 FT is accurate when it's the sentence immediately after the one you highlighted?
I was explaining my statement earlier. I didn't know that having same speed FT weapons caused FT to work properly. I knew from my own tests that FT wasn't firing as often as it should but that testing didn't include same speed weapons. (I used 1.4/1.3). So when I said earlier that Windfury/FT was best, it was based on the knowledge that the sim would overstate FT results. That knowledge was only partially correct.
So assuming that the sim was overestimating FT/FT results, I had reduced their value which meant that 3rd best (2.6 Caster w/Windfury and 1.4 FT) was actually the best result. Make sense?
I was responding to Pitbuller who challenged my statement that 2.6 Caster w/ Windfury and 1.4 FT was best. I was explaining my point of view at the time.
Yes, duel 1.4 speed FT weapons is best result for sim currently. Lightning Knives is real.
1) FT does have a cooldown on Live right now. Search the wow forums and you'll see that has been known for a while. So that is false.
2) Why are you explaining to me that 1.4/1.4 FT is accurate when it's the sentence immediately after the one you highlighted?
I was explaining my statement earlier. I didn't know that having same speed FT weapons caused FT to work properly. I knew from my own tests that FT wasn't firing as often as it should but that testing didn't include same speed weapons. (I used 1.4/1.3). So when I said earlier that Windfury/FT was best, it was based on the knowledge that the sim would overstate FT results. That knowledge was only partially correct.
So assuming that the sim was overestimating FT/FT results, I had reduced their value which meant that 3rd best (2.6 Caster w/Windfury and 1.4 FT) was actually the best result. Make sense?
I was responding to Pitbuller who challenged my statement that 2.6 Caster w/ Windfury and 1.4 FT was best. I was explaining my point of view at the time.
Yes, duel 1.4 speed FT weapons is best result for sim currently. Lightning Knives is real.
And now soon to be no more Although he DID say that he expects us to be using WF/FT :P
Caster gear was never best choice becouse of mental quickness. Some random jewelry beat melee stuff at 70lvl 3.0 values. But at 80lvl pure melee gear win clearly with every EP values that sim has produce. I belive I have test lot of diffent combinations.
"We have some ideas that will shift Enhancement back to caring about AP more" I hope this mean upping mental quickness value and reduce SS debuff percentage to match for this. I hope they don't over tune dps too down.
If different speed weapon lose about 10% of procs then flamettongue bug is only about 100dps drop-
Edit: When lowering bugged ft result. Top three is now.
1.4ft/1.4ft : 4585.08dps(1st.)
1.4wf/1.4ft : 4383.50dps(2nd.)
2.6wf/1.4ft : 4354.71dps(3rd.)
Edit2: Best nerf would be that two flametongue spell damage bonus wouldn't stack anymore.
This blue talk about glyhps but they would just expand it to imbues.
The glyphs aren't intended to give double benefit with two enchants.
What did happen our dps dedmonwakeen?
Blizz just buff moonkins. We have right dps then but we do it wrong way. Big mess to balance. We haven't even get our sellfish buffs to utility talents yet like other classes have.
I performed some exhaustive tests with FT procs when both weapons are imbued:
1. Identical weapon speeds is the only way to achieve maximum results from FT/FT. There is some sort of cooldown it would appear on the PTR, as noted in previous posts. With just auto attack, Flametongue was proccing exactly as many times as white successful attacks when both weapons were the same speed. When they were different (in my case, 1.9 MH / 1.5 OH), there were almost 30% less procs than hits.
2. The cooldown does not appear to be affected by spellcasting, as was my suspicion at first.
3. Lava Lash and Stormstrike do appear to proc FT, but with both hands FT, these specials mess with the cooldown. The net effect is that Stormstrike does not appear to proc SS when you look at stats, but it's really just a matter of timing. Sometimes SS will proc the FT, but only once, and a subsequent melee swing may not proc. Sometimes SS will proc FT once, and the next melee swings also proc. Lava Lash seems much more consistent to not interrupt this cooldown, and my testing always procced FT if SS was not in the rotation.
The net effect is that if you use Stormstrike, and you have both weapons imbued with FT, the stats look like SS doesn't proc FT.
I have not run any tests with only 1 hand imbued with FT.
09/25/08, 1:50 PM
Although he DID say that he expects us to be using WF/FT :P
