Flametongue on a slow offhand will not work in my eyes, the damage output wouldn't match what a slow offhand can do with Windfury. The reason why Flametongue weapon works so well in my tests is a result of:
A) the target being still
B) SCT works and tells me when I have Maelstrom Weapon 4 (can prepare for 5)
C) Flametongue scales better than Windfury
Basically, read Toots Hepcat's signature, it explains all the questions an Enhancement Shaman requires!
Hmm, do we know what the EP values will be for 3.0 raiding in Sunwell? As Pitbuller said, you'd only ever need 3/5 AK, possibly 4/5 AK if you roll with 8/53 (picking up 4/5 AK and Feral Spirit, losing 2/3 Call of Flame - not entirely sure which is a bigger DPS upgrade).
Talking about the Feral Spirit talent... Is this talent actually useful? At the moment my wolves - I'm not sure if they scale with gear - have 9k health and hit for around 200, critting 400 approximately 20% (I have 25% crit without totems). Leads to the question - are they, and if they are, how well are they scaling in DPS comparitive settings? I mean the speed (break roots) thing is nice and the heal seems to be bugged on PTR... Currently heals for 1 per attack, I'm guessing this is supposed to be fixed but none of it is rather essential, possibly 2/3 Call of Flame at 70 (being JUST the Fire Totem) outweights the Feral Spirit DPS (which looks to be 300-400).
300 dps for 45s every 2 minutes from 1 talent point is a pretty good deal. Those dogs have some interesting utility mechanics too.
Do Shamans have a pet tab in their character sheet? I would like to model the dogs, but I need to know their base stats.... both the standard attributes and the melee dps as reported on the character sheet.
Ep values at 70lvl using BestDpsBuild.txt config.(Lowered hit rating under spell hit cap)
With this config 2.6/1.4 + wf/ft was best. Using SS/Wf/SoE glyphs.
EP value DPS
baseline 3070.76
ap 1 0.57
crit rating 2.31 1.31
hit rating 3.31 1.87
expertise rating 0
haste rating 2.06 1.17
armor penetration rating 1.27 0.72
spellpower 1.14 0.65
strength 1.10
agility 2.19
intelligence 1.33
If you put these numbers to lootrank remember lower hit value to 2.31(second best stat value) and gem spell hit cap if needed or else you get too crit heavy gear. Same rule work with expertice too.
Do Shamans have a pet tab in their character sheet? I would like to model the dogs, but I need to know their base stats.... both the standard attributes and the melee dps as reported on the character sheet.
I don't believe that we do, unless we gain that tab while they are active.
The best way would be to use comparative output and determine their base damage at level 70 and level 80 with a naked shaman and then determine their output with a Shaman in a full melee setup and see how their specific damage output scales with the Shaman's stats.
They probably won't scale with any of the combat ratings but will probably scale with AP and with stats. They should also benefit from all raid buffs if those buffs are cast while they are active (just plan on asking a Warrior to refresh Battleshout whenever you summon them).
I don't believe that we do, unless we gain that tab while they are active..
There used to exist a thread on Shadowfiend mechanics that contained a macro to turn on the Pet tab. Unfortunately, that thread appears to be gone.....
I'll dig around some more and see if I can find it..... but I know it is possible to turn it on...... Apparently all classes have the tab, but most of us start with it hidden.
EDIT: Found it....
/run if not oldHasPetUI then oldHasPetUI = HasPetUI; HasPetUI = function() return true, false; end end PetTab_Update() ToggleCharacter("PetPaperDollFrame")
Just got the stats, uploading pics now... stand by.
That's on a lvl 80 char. They don't appear to get any bonuses from my gear as their stats are totally independent of what my paperdoll shows for me, their strength value is giving 2 AP per point, the agility says they get 0 crit from the stat.
Just got the stats, uploading pics now... stand by.
That's on a lvl 80 char. They don't appear to get any bonuses from my gear as their stats are totally independent of what my paperdoll shows for me, their strength value is giving 2 AP per point, the agility says they get 0 crit from the stat.
So.....
Avg_Dmg = ( 316 + 440 ) / 2 = 378
Dmg contribution from Attack Power = WeaponSpeed * AttackPower / 14 = 1.5 * 642 / 14 = ~68
This means they are sporting a "weapon" that does an average dmg of 310.
Hmm...... That seems awfully high..... Know any Paladins? Can you get a Blessing of Might on your puppy? That would give us the AP scaling data.
Which obviously expects that you're expertise capped. Unlikely, unless you've got some Sunwell T6 pieces.
Until you're expertise capped, Expertise has slightly more value than hit or crit in every test I've done.
Just as before, everybody should do their own EP for their own gear, raid, spec and playstyle. I use an EP set assuming slow WF/slow FT, subbing in crit gems for my old Bold gems and most of my values are different from this run, in some cases by a point or more.
Also: I know threat won't be an issue in 3.0 (ha!), but the wolves are about 100 THREATLESS dps for 1 talent point, which is very awesome. Pop 'em with bloodlust and it's 130 dps.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/29/08 at 1:24 PM.
Also: I know threat won't be an issue in 3.0 (ha!), but the wolves are about 100 THREATLESS dps for 1 talent point, which is very awesome. Pop 'em with bloodlust and it's 130 dps.
Are you sure about this? I tried to BL my wolves on the PTR (about a week ago) and they did not receive the buff although that may have just been a bug or something random.
Originally Posted by Mochiloc
until I got home and was trying to figure out why I looked like I had been kissing the Tin Man all morning.
They do Kasik, but you have to enable them before using Bloodlust. I remember using Bloodlust then enabling them... going "wtf?"
Do we know the average DPS increase of 1/3, 2/3 and full 3/3 Call of Flame though? I mean it's plausible that the extra 1 point in AK (pushing 1.8 ap per int, 1.98 with BoK) and Feral Spirit (100 dps) isn't actually a DPS upgrade - especially considering Lava Burst and Fire Totems will be essential in our DPS. My Searing Totem is hitting around 250-300 non crits on PTR - don't have access to Lava Burst.
Ep values at 70lvl using BestDpsBuild.txt config.(Lowered hit rating under spell hit cap)
With this config 2.6/1.4 + wf/ft was best. Using SS/Wf/SoE glyphs.
EP value DPS
baseline 3070.76
ap 1 0.57
crit rating 2.31 1.31
hit rating 3.31 1.87
expertise rating 0
haste rating 2.06 1.17
armor penetration rating 1.27 0.72
spellpower 1.14 0.65
strength 1.10
agility 2.19
intelligence 1.33
If you put these numbers to lootrank remember lower hit value to 2.31(second best stat value) and gem spell hit cap if needed or else you get too crit heavy gear. Same rule work with expertice too.
Pitbuller, you are using too high a value for EP Spellpower. In fact all your values are too high.
It's skewing your results incredibly in the direction of Spellpower, giving it a much higher EP value then it should have.
I reran everything but with more normalized EP values.
I based those values on the level 70 epic gems (postulating that Expertise and Armor Penetration Rating would be equal to the other ratings stats based on them being equal on the level 80 gems). 20 AP is equal to 10 Crit Rating = 10 Hit Rating = 12 Spellpower. Then I doubled the values and reinput it into the sim with everything else being exactly the same and this is what I got for EP values
AP = 1
Crit Rating = 2.08
Hit Rating = 2.47
Expertise Rating = 0
Haste Rating = 1.43
Armor Penetration Rating = 1.57 (edited - if using in lootrank beta divide by 7 = 0.22) Spellpower = 0.72
Strength = 1.10
Agility = 2.15
Intellect = 1.28
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Just as before, everybody should do their own EP for their own gear, raid, spec and playstyle. I use an EP set assuming slow WF/slow FT, subbing in crit gems for my old Bold gems and most of my values are different from this run, in some cases by a point or more.
Also: I know threat won't be an issue in 3.0 (ha!), but the wolves are about 100 THREATLESS dps for 1 talent point, which is very awesome. Pop 'em with bloodlust and it's 130 dps.
Are you guys working the wolf dps based off 1 of them or 2?
My wolves hit for about 350 each so that's 700/1.5= 467dps when they are active. True that is at level 78, not sure what they hit for at level 70. Although on the Beta at level 78 my gear is worse then what my level 70 shaman on the live server is wearing.
Are you guys working the wolf dps based off 1 of them or 2?
My wolves hit for about 350 each so that's 700/1.5= 467dps when they are active. True that is at level 78, not sure what they hit for at level 70. Although on the Beta at level 78 my gear is worse then what my level 70 shaman on the live server is wearing.
On the PTR, I'm getting up to ~200 DPS per wolf (before regemming/enchanting). After a couple 20+ min sessions with the testing dummies, I was getting roughly 330 combined DPS on average while they were up. That's using the Hyjal fist set with WF/FT.
I'll try to remember to post my last combat log and some more detailed stats when I get off work.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Rounced - are you sure you're modifying those values correctly? The config value states that those are the EP step values and specifically notes that making them too small will give wonky results. Those aren't 'values' for spellpower, its simply the amount of spellpower/etc that will be added each step to see how much dps improved from the addition compared to the baseline. All you've done is changed it so that each step is adding 20 of each stat to compare against the baseline, rather than the default values that were in the 100s.
Ugh no, all the Enhancement needs is more spaghetti code
The 3s CD dates back to vanilla wow, before resilience and cheap stamina. Its goal was to prevent dual WF instagibs. These days arena is about controlled output, not random burst -- removing the CD will make shamans more dangerous, but not a way that's necessarily imbalanced.
The double proc chance is almost certainly a bug that conveniently allowed dual furied weapons to have a pro rate approaching 20%.
Eliminating these both should cancel out each other, and allow windfury to scale better with speed and directly with haste.
The simplest way in my eyes for them to fix the lack of scalable WF is for them to just bite the bullet and limit WF to main hand only, and then eliminate the internal cooldown. They seem to be pushing for WF/FT anyway, and this change would allow WF to scale properly with both haste and weapon speed. Its almost like the devs are masochists and want our mechanics to be really complex and difficult to balance. Occam's Razor ftw.
The problem with that Skreekins is that people will whine "I wanna du dpz with windfuries on both weapons for more cyclones appearing" and we all know, as from the appearance of our 51 point talent, that Blizzard listens to these players.
What they could do is cause haste gear to reduce the cooldown; including both Flurry and Windfury Totem affecting the cooldown reduction. It would be a risky move, but it can always be reverted/fixed - the values can change, it will also be a direct influence on Windfury scaling better through obtaining Haste. The idea does have it's flaws though.. Stacking haste becomes mainstream knowledge!
Krim, what have you been reading? Our 51 point talent rocks!
Occam's Razor simply suggest that it's hard to make a class that's both spell and melee without making it overpowered. Countering this overpower with a series of hidden mechanics naturally creates complexity.
Keeping imbues good for both hands gives players more flexibility, thus it's unlikely Blizzard will change that. I think it's most likely they'll take the tactic of reducing or normalizing (to current weapon speed) the FT coefficient. Lava lash and lack of a 50% offhand penalty on FT damage will keep the imbue essential on the offhand, but WF will remain superior on the MH. Lava lash will promote a slower weapon as well, possibly leaving fast weapons as superior but not massively so.
Fixing WF would be awesome (its instability in the beta implies to me they're trying something), but with 6 weeks to go I imagine they'll fall back to an FT nerf. Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already -- adding a permanent spell damage buff and a feedback system (LL) to an ability without balancing it in some other way isn't very Blizzard.
I tell you -- the thing I've been most impressed with so far when playing with simulations is that the weapon speed and imbue variation is nowhere near as dramatic as it is today. We're talking low single digit percent differences verses double digit ones. At that point, the difference is more like elemental vs restoration offspec is today -- mostly one of choice. Choose slow, you gear one way, choose fast, you gear another. From a best DPS perspective, there is surely a theoretical winner, but in raids I bet either will be sufficient.
Rounced - are you sure you're modifying those values correctly? The config value states that those are the EP step values and specifically notes that making them too small will give wonky results. Those aren't 'values' for spellpower, its simply the amount of spellpower/etc that will be added each step to see how much dps improved from the addition compared to the baseline. All you've done is changed it so that each step is adding 20 of each stat to compare against the baseline, rather than the default values that were in the 100s.
nope, not sure but I know that you can get a lot more AP for an equivalent value of Spellpower so shouldn't the AP step be larger then the Spellpower step.
The results I get also make a lot more sense to me based on what I see with the Lootrank listings.
You can always increase the stats but since the stats are all linked based on their ilevel values shouldn't the values also increase equivalently?
I used double gem values but could just as easily be 4x gem value, but using 300 Spellpower and 300 Attackpower doesn't make much sense to me since 300 Spellpower is worth the same as 500 Attackpower.
Also why are the higher values going to be more accurate? You will get less inconsistency but you also get a lot less accuracy with those inflated values. The sim runs the EP values so fast anyway just run the lower values but over a much longer period of time if you are worried about inconsistencies.
Think about it this way. Pitbuller is showing each point of Spellpower as being worth 14% more then each point of AP but each AP is also worth 1/3 of a Spellpower and AP affects all of our damage (and he was running WF/FT 2.6/1.4) and Spellpower only affects at most 50% of your damage and is working off spells with pretty bad coefficients. That just doesn't seem logical to me.
Finally adding 150 Hit Rating as a step doesn't make any sense since you aren't checking anything at that point. 150 rating as a stepping point means that when you use that step, with the base numbers already in place 100 of that rating did absolutely nothing since you capped out with the first 50. You can't use single digit steps but using steps the size in that config file can't be accurate.
Look at Yo!'s sim, his EP step scale is 40-80 not 300.
At 70, on lvl 70 dummies with me just auto attacking (keeping UR up) and totems, the wolves we're doing around 15000 to 18000 damage a pop which works out to 83-100 dps.
Demonwankeen made an error in his calculation if I'm not mistaking.
average dps = (dps*uptime)/cooldown. Not (dps*uptime)/(cooldown-uptime).
In raid settings the dps will go up through the various raidwide buffs and mob debuffs so I expect a decent increase in an raiding environment. The wolves themselves (for as far as I have seen) only scale on HP with level. The difference between my wolves (~9k hp) and the wolves of a lvl 78 (~10-11k) paired with the usual pet aoe-avoidance should atleast give them a chance on full duration even on random-damage bosses.
Still need to test whether they actually scale with other stats or not though.
Some other level 70 numbers on a level 70 dummy.
I got an avarage dps of around 2.2k solo while going OOM within 1m30 after each SR gave me a fresh pool. Asuming the raiding refreshments solve our mana problem there it looks like an ok baseline.
Somewhat later I paired up with a rogue (Expose armor(-2600 armor) + master poisoner (+3%crit) which gave me the following result:
(Ignore the paladin, it went to northrend and wasnt included in the short test)
394k dmg @ 2685dps gives a combat time of ~150secs, not a really long combat time I know, but I stopped right about when my mana was depleted again (with 45secs left on the SR timer due to the extra crit). Far from being any proper indication on our 3.0 dps but I thought the ~500dps diffirence with just a rogue in the group would atleast be something to look forward to for raiding situations where we have a lot more raidwide buffs/boss-debuffs.
Few notes to make tho, Since the kindly badge-gem vendor stole all my badges the dps "tests" were still with live-gemming and enchants. I used slow/slow wf/ft since I lacked a fast OH or a fast/fast combo aswell.
Look at Yo!'s sim, his EP step scale is 40-80 not 300.
I submit to you that Yo may have been doing things differently then this new sim.
If it doesn't seem logical, bring it up with the sim author, but my gut feeling is that if you're going to mess with the EP steps you should probably know what they do before you make claims based around them.
As an aside, would be nice for some other level 80 beta testers of different races and gear levels to screenshot their wolf stats using the method above so that we can find out if they differ at all.
The simplest way in my eyes for them to fix the lack of scalable WF is for them to just bite the bullet and limit WF to main hand only, and then eliminate the internal cooldown. They seem to be pushing for WF/FT anyway, and this change would allow WF to scale properly with both haste and weapon speed. Its almost like the devs are masochists and want our mechanics to be really complex and difficult to balance. Occam's Razor ftw.
I'd be extremely surprised if we ever see the WF CD removed entirely, even if they limit it to MH only. The problem is still going to be 2h enhance in PvP. Despite the resilience/high stam changes to PvP since the cooldown was released in WoW 1.x, the fact is that a double WF proc with a slow two-hander would still be devastating. Even messing about with my crappy Gorehowl for fun, with only self-buffs, I've seen Windfury crits easily over 2.5k. Change that to an actual good weapon and a good combination of buffs/debuffs, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 3.5k WF crits, for a total triple crit WF proc of ~9k. Combine that with a second WF proc at the same time, and even with 300+ resilience and high health, you're looking at very nearly one-shotting clothies that don't have any sort of damage-avoidance like Soul Link. Either way, it's an insane amount of burst that Blizzard has deliberately gone out of their way to avoid. I don't think it's worth asking them to completely remove the cooldown, because it won't happen.
That said, considering they're clearly able to modify the proc rate of an ability based on whether or not it's active on both dual-wielded weapons, I don't see why they couldn't do the same thing for the cooldown. If they had one cooldown (say, 3 second) for WF on a 2h weapon and for WF/WF DW, and a separate (shorter) cooldown for WF/FT DW, they might be able to get the best of both worlds. Of course, that totally blows Occam's Razor, but it's not like they've gone out of their way to make WF solutions simple in the past.
Demonwakeen made an error in his calculation if I'm not mistaking.
average dps = (dps*uptime)/cooldown. Not (dps*uptime)/(cooldown-uptime).
I need their actual stats...... not data spread out over the cooldown. The sim already handles pets that are summoned/dismissed throughout a fight (such as Shadowfiend and WaterElemental).
Unfortunately, to plug pets/effects/whatever into SimulationCraft, I need data down at the atomic level because it does all the combining of stat/buffs/etc on the fly.
09/29/08, 11:55 AM
