Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 91

Diggty · 09/29/08, 4:48 PM

I didnt see a post in here about formulas. But I'm lookin at my toon on the PTR and I have 351 agi which equals 11.70% crit and 341ap. 40 agi = 1% crit and 1agi =1 ap doesnt ssem like the right math in my book. Please explain or correct for me. ty

Krim · 09/29/08, 4:57 PM

I am not saying our 51 point talent is not good, I think 100 dps, possibly more if Blizzard add scaling, is a hefty amount for a single talent point - does any other class gain 100 dps from 1 talent point? Just think that Feral Spirit was a tad clichéd, could have had a talent much cooler, that showed more initiative on Blizzard's part.

As I'm on topic about the spirit wolves, I was wondering - can they be buffed through Blessing of Might, Shout, Kings etc? I know they recieve benefit from Unleashed Rage, Trueshot Aura and Bloodlust. Not sure about other buffs though. In a raid setting if they were to gain benefit from these buffs they could put out much more than 450~ DPS (with Bloodlust) possibly reaching 600-700 DPS which, as previously said, would be awesome for a 1 point talent.

I declare though, that they need to short UR to a 3 point talent and possibly rework it so each rank (1/3, 2/3, 3/3) gives a benefit of "increases the range of Unleashed Rage by 4, 7, 10 yards." Compared to TSA and Abomination's Might which both require less talent points; TSA also having a bigger range.

Toots Hepcat · 09/29/08, 5:13 PM

Stat based paper doll numbers have always been screwed up. This is in part because beyond a certain level (i think) you no longer gain certain benefits from your race's stats (again, I think).

Still, if add up your crit rating / 22.08 (7.29%) and talents (5%) and subtract that from your paper doll number of 23.99, you get 11.7, or 351/30. Looks like you're getting a 1:30 conversion.

Anybody see that on the beta?

dedmonwakeen · 09/29/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

demon What exactly do you need a screenshot of in that case?

Your screenshot was perfect to provide a baseline.

The only think I would like confirmation of is the scaling of pet AP with pet Damage.

One way to do this is to summon your wolf and have a pally buff him with Blessing of Kings and then screenshot your pet tab again.

This will confirm the Str-to-AP coefficient as well as the AP-to-DPS coefficient.

Since none of their special attacks seem to directly affect dps, I can get all I need from the pet tab.

Thanks!

Draenorm · 09/29/08, 5:51 PM

Malan, I had the exact same pet stats as you as a draenei.

Malan · 09/29/08, 6:53 PM

Wolf stats with Blessing of Kings (improved) from a lvl 78 paladin (if it matters).
2nd shot is BoK + improved SoE.

It should be noted that the wolf pet screen is only for ONE wolf, when the paladin was doing BoK, the first wolf he hit with the buff didn't alter the pet tab, only the 2nd one did.

Pitbuller · 09/29/08, 7:25 PM

Rounced I thinked about lot why you have seen different ep values than me with same config file and I finally figured it out. You have used config.txt file. Start-ep-calculation base value is:

enhsim.exe config.txt ep

You have to right click it and press edit and then manually change that to:

enhsim.exe bestDpsBuild.txt ep

When I posted EP values I did lower those values but not small as you use. Hit ep range was so small that it won't go over cap spell hit. This lower noise but also lower stats that have dimishning values like crit. It also show higher those stats that have "exponentinal" returns like armor penetration. Ap and spell power have neither one. Those scale static if other stats remain same. Ap ep range would be 10000 and still it would show exactly same value. Spell power work similar.

I use expertice cap becouse config assumes that you have 3*new t6 pieces and magister trinket. Other stats assume high sunwell gear. I only post these values becouse so often these are asked. But only ep values that can be trusted is your own gear ep values.

There is ranges what I used:

ep_ap                           40
ep_crit_rating                  20
ep_hit_rating                   20
ep_expertise                    10
ep_haste_rating                 20
ep_armor_penetration_rating     20
ep_spellpower                   20

These are ep ranges.

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS  
baseline                                      3071.13
ap                        1         0.55     
crit rating               2.33      1.28  
hit rating                3.86      2.12   
expertise rating          0
haste rating              1.36      0.75   
armor penetration rating  1.22      0.67 
spellpower                1.13      0.62 
strength                  1.10      0.61
agility                   2.24      1.23
intelligence              1.31      0.72
elapsed simulation time: 120000.00h

You can see that spell power have very similar value. All difference is only noice.
If you want best possible accuracy you should use very high ep range to ap. You can see this if you set ap ep range to 1 then you see very buggy results.

Karok(EU) · 09/29/08, 8:10 PM

For the level 70 version of the Spirit wolves for the sim (Clicky for pics):

Level 70, no gear no buffs

Geared gave the exact same result so they are not scaling with gear (yet?)

And one with totems up:

Level 70, totembuffed

And for completeness:

Level 70, Totems, UR, Heroism

Also I dont think you should count on casted raid buffs for your wolves (blessings, sta/int/motw etc). Sure they would do more dps, but do you really expect your buffers to keep an eye on when you happen to use the wolves and interrupt their healing, dps or tanking for it (and spend a combat-mana)? doubtfull. You should only be counting the proc/aura/totem buffs it can get.

Rouncer · 09/29/08, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Rounced I thinked about lot why you have seen different ep values than me with same config file and I finally figured it out. You have used config.txt file. Start-ep-calculation base value is:

enhsim.exe config.txt ep

You have to right click it and press edit and then manually change that to:

enhsim.exe bestDpsBuild.txt ep

Something is working funny then.

I manually entered all those data points into the GUI and reset the EP settings there and then ran the Sim and got the values that I got which are nothing at all like yours.

I literally copied them all and double checked them too so try that and see what you get.

dedmonwakeen · 09/29/08, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Wolf stats with Blessing of Kings (improved) from a lvl 78 paladin (if it matters).
2nd shot is BoK + improved SoE.

It should be noted that the wolf pet screen is only for ONE wolf, when the paladin was doing BoK, the first wolf he hit with the buff didn't alter the pet tab, only the 2nd one did.

Thanks. That confirms.....

2AP = 1STR
DPS Scaling = Pet_AP/14
Avg Base Weapon Dmg (without AP) = 330

That's all I needed to complete the sim. Thanks again!

I'm assuming the base pet 5% crit.....

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 1:26 AM

Does Lava Lash do Fire damage?
If so, does it benefit from the Stormstrike debuff?
If so, does it consume charges of the Stormstrike debuff?

Xoya · 09/30/08, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Does Lava Lash do Fire damage?
If so, does it benefit from the Stormstrike debuff?
If so, does it consume charges of the Stormstrike debuff?

Yes.

Krim · 09/30/08, 3:42 AM

Another question, Lava Lash works as a Melee skill and works off of Melee crit but does it gain bonuses from debuffs such as Scorch (+10% crit), CoElements (+10% magic damage) etc?

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 4:40 AM

Version r600 of SimulationCraft available..... (currently supporting Druid, Mage Priest, Shaman, Warlock)

Thanks to many (esp Malan) for the modeling details.....

This is the Enhancement Shaman excerpt from the raid output. If there any glaring inconsistencies, let me know.

Player=Shaman_Enhancement  DPS=4238.9  DPR=17.1  RPS=248.1/335.1  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=116  agility=726  stamina=1007  intellect=556  spirit=132  health=13070  mana=12609
  Spell Stats:  power=733  hit=9.5%  crit=11.0%  penetration=0  haste=6.1%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=2444  hit=13.6%  crit=15.8%  expertise=4.6  penetration=500  haste=6.1%
  Actions:
    earth_shock           Count= 17.9|18.8sec  DPE=2553| 3%  DPET=1727  DPR= 4.3  Miss=4.3%  Hit=1970  CritHit=3935|4014|34.0%
    flame_shock           Count= 22.0|15.3sec  DPE=2499| 4%  DPET=1700  DPR= 4.7  Miss=4.3%  Hit=1083  CritHit=2167|2211|31.8%  Tick=247
    flametongue           Count=222.9| 1.5sec  DPE=1091|17%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=4.5%  Hit= 971  CritHit=1459|1495|33.5%
    lava_burst            Count=  7.2|46.6sec  DPE=5471| 3%  DPET=3700  DPR=15.6  Miss=4.8%  CritHit=5747|5862|95.2%
    lava_lash             Count= 39.2| 8.6sec  DPE=1702| 5%  DPET=1001  DPR= 9.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1397  CritHit=2791|2870|29.8%
    lightning_bolt        Count= 22.1|15.3sec  DPE=3038| 5%  DPET=2083  DPR= 8.8  Miss=4.4%  Hit=2353  CritHit=4703|4796|33.6%
    lightning_shield      Count= 34.3| 9.8sec  DPE=1326| 3%  DPET=7164  DPR= inf  Miss=4.7%  Hit=1392
    melee_main_hand       Count=198.1| 1.7sec  DPE=1339|19%  DPET= 789  DPR= inf  Miss=13.4%  Hit=1310  CritHit=2621|2704|29.4%
    melee_off_hand        Count=196.8| 1.7sec  DPE= 667| 9%  DPET= 390  DPR= inf  Miss=13.5%  Hit= 655  CritHit=1310|1352|29.2%
    searing_totem         Count=  7.4|45.8sec  DPE=1758| 1%  DPET=1465  DPR=11.2  Miss=18.6%  Tick=68  CritTick=135|136|12.7%
    stormstrike           Count= 38.0| 8.9sec  DPE=2314| 6%  DPET=1361  DPR= 2.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2100  CritHit=3414|4055|29.0%
    windfury              Count=121.1| 2.8sec  DPE=2690|23%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2260  CritHit=4523|4665|28.7%
   spirit_wolf
    wolf_melee            Count= 62.0| 3.8sec  DPE= 722| 3%  DPET= 482  DPR= inf  Miss=9.1%  Hit= 881  CritHit=1761|1763|5.9%

Excerpt from the raid config:

#
# Enhancement Shaman
#
# (1) The "weapon=main" option to windfury_weapon puts the enchant only on the main-hand weapon
# (2) The "weapon=off" option to flametongue_weapon puts the enchant only on the off-hand weapon
# (3) The "flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1" option to lava_burst will prevent it from being called until there is only one tick remaining on Flame Shock.
# (4) The "maelstrom=5" option to lightning_bolt/lava_burst means that LB/LvB will only be executed when there is a 5-stack of Maelstrom Weapon,
#     making the LB/LvB cast instant which prevents auto_attack resets.
# (5) The tool accepts separate value for hit/crit even though WotLK has merged them.
#
shaman=Shaman_Enhancement
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman=052030150000000000000000000000000000000000000000003020502300502135331131231051
actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/stormstrike/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1/lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5/searing_totem/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/spirit_wolf/flame_shock/earth_shock/lava_lash/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35
gear_agility=600
gear_stamina=800
gear_intellect=400
gear_attack_power=1500
gear_spell_power=0
gear_attack_hit_rating=250
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_attack_crit_rating=250
gear_spell_crit_rating=250
gear_attack_expertise_rating=150
gear_attack_penetration=500
gear_haste_rating=200
main_hand=fist,damage=310,speed=2.8,enchant=mongoose
off_hand=fist,damage=310,speed=2.8,enchant=executioner
# Glyphs
glyph_earth_shock=0
glyph_strength_of_earth=1
glyph_windfury_weapon=1
glyph_stormstrike=1
glyph_lightning_shield=1
# Pets
pet=spirit_wolf
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

Kyrryth · 09/30/08, 5:14 AM

1) Earth Shock seems a bit high on the DPCT meter. I would've thought that Flame Shock would be significantly higher, even with LvBs before the final tick.

2) Elemental Devastation uptime seems lower than it should be. With LvB autocritting with Flame Shock up, a significantly higher spell crit chance, and more spells being cast in a given time frame, I would think that the uptime would be much higher than 57%.

3) I would think that we would have much more than 1500 AP in a raid setting, but I may just be confused by how the sim works.

Just some initial observations.

Philondra · 09/30/08, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kyrryth

3) I would think that we would have much more than 1500 AP in a raid setting, but I may just be confused by how the sim works.

I'm assuming that you're reading the excerpt from the raid config, not the actual "paper doll" stats. If so, you are reading the "AP from gear" section, which I assume is comprised only of the "Increase Attack Power by X" value on items. The paper doll stats can be found in the first section of code, and read as follows (melee stats copied only to save time and space):

Attack Stats: power=2444 hit=13.6% crit=15.8% expertise=4.6 penetration=500 haste=6.1%

The stats strike me as a little on the low side, particularly the 15.8% crit rating. Is this representative of a standard entry-level kit for level 80? The low crit rating is clearly what is causing the low ED uptime, as lower MW procs result in fewer autocrit LvBs over a longer simulation.

Thanks for putting together this data, though, as it gives us some concrete theorycrafted numbers to mull over.

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 8:05 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'll admit I truly had very little experience to work from when choosing Shaman gear. I had a set of Naxx10 numbers for casters and then poked around at some Naxx10 Mail items just to get an idea. If someone has a better set of "paper doll" gear stats for a Naxx10 equipped Shaman I'd be very, very, very interested.

Pitbuller · 09/30/08, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Thanks for the feedback. I'll admit I truly had very little experience to work from when choosing Shaman gear. I had a set of Naxx10 numbers for casters and then poked around at some Naxx10 Mail items just to get an idea. If someone has a better set of "paper doll" gear stats for a Naxx10 equipped Shaman I'd be very, very, very interested.

Rounced maded good post about this. Naxx10man gear with some sunwell additions. There is config that EnhSim uses. It would be nice if both simulators use same base config then results are more consistent.

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Rounced maded good post about this. Naxx10man gear with some sunwell additions. There is config that EnhSim uses. It would be nice if both simulators use same base config then results are more consistent.

Thanks! I'll definitely update the config file to match...... and then closely examine my output with Enhsim.

And just to be crystal clear:

SimulationCraft isn't placed to compete with Enhsim..... Enhsim is far faster and has built in EP calculations. I had to sacrifice a considerable amount of performance to create an architecture to model all classes in addition to resource analysis and tons of extra data tracking. SimulationCraft has its place, but I fully expect that EnhSim to be the tool of choice for the Shaman looking to tweak his gear.

Malan · 09/30/08, 9:12 AM

Dedmon - no enhancement shaman at 80 is going to be using Executioner and Mongoose on their weapons.

I picked up a DST replacement on beta last night in heroic utgarde pinnacle. [Meteorite Whetstone]

8 min of combat log follows. Its a 10 second buff, my first estimate is a 45 sec cooldown.

9/30 08:02:00.587  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:02:10.520  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:02:47.943  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:02:57.956  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:03:33.401  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:03:43.380  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:04:19.236  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:04:29.306  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:05:11.182  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:05:21.168  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:06:12.210  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:06:22.261  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:06:58.056  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:07:08.115  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:07:44.286  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:07:54.298  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:08:32.083  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:08:42.146  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

9/30 08:09:24.015  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF
9/30 08:09:33.980  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,0x00000000000551FA,"Malanbeta",0x511,60302,"Meteorite Whetstone",0x1,BUFF

Krim · 09/30/08, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Dedmon - no enhancement shaman at 80 is going to be using Executioner and Mongoose on their weapons.

What weapon enchant would we use? I thought Blizzard stated that Mongoose wouldn't decay with level increase, and with the haste buff and the 120 AP it grants during it's duration I'd have believed this would be the best enchant - on both the main hand and off hand.

Also, are any level 70 shaman on the PTR finding it hard to 'not go oom' before Shamanistic Rage cooldowns? I'm finding it intolerable to continue mana regen on the PTR - lightning bolt drains a lot of mana.

Malan · 09/30/08, 9:30 AM

Did they say that? All the rogues on Beta were telling me that Mongoose decays. Executioner was changed to rating on the proc so I know for a fact that it decays.

Rouncer · 09/30/08, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Did they say that? All the rogues on Beta were telling me that Mongoose decays. Executioner was changed to rating on the proc so I know for a fact that it decays.

The proc on mongoose will decay naturally just like executioner since the Agility and the Haste it grants will be decaying along with everything else.

Only thing I haven't seen a report on is whether you can still get double procs or not (remember some early posts saying they thought they might have removed that).

Karok(EU) · 09/30/08, 9:41 AM

While it naturally decays over leveling, wouldn't mongoose still beat executioner? A mongoose proc results in more ap (/spelldamage), somewhat more melee crit and the small haste bonus. All 3 directly increase melee (white and yellow) and spell damage, increase the stacking speed of MW somewhat (haste and melee crit) while executioner only affects white damage (and windfury if applied).

That is unless the natural decay of stats is so severe that mongoose just gets totally trashed while leaving executioner relativly unharmed. Which I doubt.

@ Krim: Yes while solo-hitting dummies I usually go out of mana with 30 to 40 seconds left on the SR cooldown while using watershield and mana spring. In a raid situation this gap should be bridged by replenishment and BoW though.

Toots Hepcat · 09/30/08, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Krim

Also, are any level 70 shaman on the PTR finding it hard to 'not go oom' before Shamanistic Rage cooldowns? I'm finding it intolerable to continue mana regen on the PTR - lightning bolt drains a lot of mana.

Which is one potential problem with a high magic kit (fast weapons & fast MW stacks) -- more mana burn and lower theoretical returns than a slow weapon kit.

SR procs, like all PPMs, actually decrease in chance as the weapon gets faster.

But each of Windfury and Stormstrike (and one assumes Lavalash) can also return mana during an SR and they do so at the same PPM as the current weapon. Use a faster weapon, you have a lower chance to proc from each of these abilities, and since they can't speed up, you wind up with a net lower chance to proc.

I expect I'll have a lot of problems with all my dang leather.