Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 92

Pitbuller · 09/30/08, 9:43 AM

Dedmonwakeen: I see both sim very usefull but in different manner. I tested your a lot today and with small rotation tweaks I get over 100dps boost.
Original:

actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/stormstrike/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1/lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5/searing_totem/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/spirit_wolf/flame_shock/earth_shock/lava_lash/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35

Improved:

actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/flame_shock/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=4/lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5/stormstrike/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/spirit_wolf/earth_shock/lava_lash/searing_totem/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Dedmonwakeen: I see both sim very usefull but in different manner. I tested your a lot today and with small rotation tweaks I get over 100dps boost.
Original:

actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/stormstrike/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1/lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5/searing_totem/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/spirit_wolf/flame_shock/earth_shock/lava_lash/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35

Improved:

actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/flame_shock/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=4/lightning_bolt,maelstrom=5/stormstrike/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/spirit_wolf/earth_shock/lava_lash/searing_totem/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35

Excellent! I just don't have a "deep enough" experience in every class to create an optimal action priority list. I'll spend a little time to tweak it...... but the Enhancement Shaman action list is truly epic. I can't believe I ever thought playing a Shadow Priest was hard.....

I'll make sure this gets into the default config in time for the next release.

Peterle · 09/30/08, 10:15 AM

Pitbuller: Maybe you wrote it and i did not recognize it: Why do you modify the ep ranges?

If i run the sim with the original ranges and my custom config, i get the following results (level 70):

ranges:

ep_ap                           300
ep_crit_rating                  100
ep_hit_rating                   150
ep_expertise                    10
ep_haste_rating                 200
ep_armor_penetration_rating     85
ep_spellpower                   300

result:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      2760.69
ap                        1         0.54      2921.42        160.73
crit rating               2.28      1.22      2882.75        122.05
hit rating                1.58      0.85      2887.47        126.77
expertise rating          2.76      1.48      2818.36        57.67
haste rating              1.96      1.05      2971.22        210.53
armor penetration rating  1.31      0.70      2820.40        59.71
spellpower                0.95      0.51      2912.62        151.93
strength                  1.10
agility                   2.17
intelligence              1.33

your ranges:

ep_ap                           40
ep_crit_rating                  20
ep_hit_rating                   20
ep_expertise                    10
ep_haste_rating                 20
ep_armor_penetration_rating     20
ep_spellpower                   20

results:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      2760.49
ap                        1         0.54      2782.23        21.75
crit rating               2.36      1.28      2786.16        25.67
hit rating                3.27      1.78      2796.08        35.59
expertise rating          2.74      1.49      2818.59        58.10
haste rating              2.11      1.15      2783.46        22.97
armor penetration rating  1.34      0.73      2775.10        14.61
spellpower                1.01      0.55      2771.45        10.96
strength                  1.10
agility                   2.20
intelligence              1.34

Do you modify them because of the (spell)hit cap? I have 120 hit rating. The value of hit is calculated with 270 hit rating (120 + 150 <- range), if i use the original ranges. This would be way above the spellhit cap.
This is the only reason i could find why the results for hit rating are different.

Toots Hepcat · 09/30/08, 10:38 AM

enhsim calculates EP thusly: it adds a bunch of one stat, runs a sim, then divides the benefit by the amount of the stat added.

Obviously, adding enough of a stat to cap is going to result in deflated immediate value for that stat. The premise for those big numbers is that adding more of a stat makes the EP more accurate. Personally, I don't buy it. As you can see, low numbers don't dramatically change the overall outlook, and using large numbers it's much too easy to cap and thus harder to detect immediate needs.

Furthermore, for multiplicative stats like haste, crit and hit, each point you add should be worth slightly less than the one behind it, and should inflate the values of the other stats. E.g. if you add 300 haste rating, you get a lot more relative benefit from the first point than you do from the last. Thus the larger range you use, the lower the average benefit.

I feel that you should use ranges that approximate what you'll see on gear. You're likely to see a piece with 40 hit rating on it. You're less likely to see one with 150. You may even want to reduce those values to the same level as what you'll see on gems and enchants, since that's a gearing question you're quite likely to have.

Given itemization, the chance that any set will result in dramatically different gearing is unlikely. But we're a spec that benefits from a careful balance of stats. Enhsim seems to be much more stable in its results than Yo's is due to the calculation method.

Pitbuller · 09/30/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Peterle

Pitbuller: Maybe you wrote it and i did not recognize it: Why do you modify the ep ranges?
...
Do you modify them because of the (spell)hit cap? I have 120 hit rating. The value of hit is calculated with 270 hit rating (120 + 150 <- range), if i use the original ranges. This would be way above the spellhit cap.
This is the only reason i could find why the results for hit rating are different.

I just wanted point out that ep ranges wasn't reason why rounced get differ spell power ep value. You should allways modife every stat ep range that cap or least say these are over that cap. Bigger ep ranges cause less noise but also give "flaw" result to some stats. If stat have dimishing/exponentinal return ep range should be small enough. But stat that scale linearly should have big. Ap ep range should be very high for best results. Like Tukez say high ep ranges give better results with low simulate time. But lower ep ranges give better result with high simulate time. Latter is better if you have enough time.

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 11:08 AM

I'm a little worried that I am modeling Flametongue Weapon Imbue completely wrong because I have a strong respect for Toots and I'm having a hard time understanding item A in his sig:

A. Flametongue scales better with fast weapons

The tooltip says that the FT Imbue will do different damage depending upon the speed of the weapon. I chose this to mean that the FT Imbue has a base damage which is multiplied by the speed of the weapon. Using a speed range of 1.1 to 3.4 seemed to work well for most of the ranks giving the following "base" dmg values:

Rank 6 (L56) => 30
Rank 7 (L64) => 35
Rank 8 (L71) => 60
Rank 9 (L76) => 70
Rank 10 (L80) => 80

This essentially normalizes the FT damage based upon weapon speed.

This allows me to use a slow off-hand giving better enchant up-time as well as higher Lava Lash hits.

But..... I'm having a hard time understanding why FT would scale better with fast weapons based upon this model......

..... which means my model must be wrong since this is against the prevailing wisdom.

Exewut · 09/30/08, 11:12 AM

Each flametongue hit recieves 10% of your spelldamage no matter what the speed of your weapon. So if you have 1k spelldamage a 1.0 weapon will give 100 dps extra with flametongue, a 2.0 second weapon will get 50 dps.
(Ignoring resists, crits etc. just a purely theoretical example)

edit: this is likely a bug that never got fixed because nobody used flametongue except for the smalle period of time in 2.0 where the flametongue damage was entirely based on the speed of your mainhand (2.7 MH with a 1.3 dagger was .. interesting). It's rather easy to fix too probably since it's just a case of bracers set wrong base damage*weaponspeed+10%spelldamage instead of (base damage + 10% spelldamage)*weaponspeed

Wolfhand · 09/30/08, 11:13 AM

EDIT: Doh, out-sponded.

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Exewut

Each flametongue hit recieves 10% of your spelldamage no matter what the speed of your weapon. So if you have 1k spelldamage a 1.0 weapon will give 100 dps extra with flametongue, a 2.0 second weapon will get 50 dps.
(Ignoring resists, crits etc. just a purely theoretical example)

Bah..... I need to read my own code better..... I just didn't make that connection.

The reason I asked the question was because I was seeing a fairly substantial improvement when using a slow off-hand..... perhaps simply because the increased Lava Lash damage is out-weighing the increase in FT and StaticShocks.

Toots Hepcat · 09/30/08, 11:34 AM

Lava lash should, at least, make having a slow offhand less bad. Whether fast or slow is better overall will depend a lot on gear.

Perfect normalization will be impossible given all of our feedback systems; but picking up a higher DPS weapon with better stats regardless of the speed may be within our reach.

Krim · 09/30/08, 11:50 AM

Are we seeing an overall DPS decrease from level 70 to level 80? My own tests have shown that my gear (on page 89 or something) that with Rising Tide/Edge of Oppression (both with Mongoose) I'm hitting 2.3k~ dps values, however many people are struggling to break 2k dps at level 80... What gives? I would have thought with the addition of Lava Burst the DPS would increase... Considering the weapons (Rising Tide/Edge of Oppression) aren't that spectacular and should be replaced at level 75+.

Just did a test on the PTR using my gear set explained before (I'll find the link!) with Rising Tide (WF) and Mounting Vengeance (FT): Gear Set (inc's gems + enchants)

1818.7 DPS

1818.7 dps, quite high considering the slow OH and using Flametongue - it's higher than what WF/WF produced with the same weapons chosen.

Sydane · 09/30/08, 12:14 PM

Due to the ratings change, crit, hit, haste, ArP, and expertise all drop dramatically from 70 to 80 and the typical blue/Naxx geared char will have much lower values for all those than they did at 70 even in badge/T6 gear, much less Sunwell gear. Since AP and base stats have increased significantly, there's not much (if any) of a drop off in total dps, but remember, relatively speaking, all the LK gear out now is terrible.

Krim · 09/30/08, 12:18 PM

D'oh! Of course, thanks for clearing that up Sydane.

Sorry if it's an obvious question: but with the changes to the way Shaman gain AP (Int, Agi and Str) how is the LK gear designed at the moment terrible? I mean looking at the Tier 7.5 (Naxx 25 set) it looks like we'll be gaining a hefty amount of AP - as well as crit, hit and haste - just from the set. This is of course unless you mean 40 agi = 1 crit and we're using mail gear which generally stacks agility in favour of Hunters who have a better agi:crit ratio.

Nevets_69 · 09/30/08, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Krim

D'oh! Of course, thanks for clearing that up Sydane.

Sorry if it's an obvious question: but with the changes to the way Shaman gain AP (Int, Agi and Str) how is the LK gear designed at the moment terrible? I mean looking at the Tier 7.5 (Naxx 25 set) it looks like we'll be gaining a hefty amount of AP - as well as crit, hit and haste - just from the set. This is of course unless you mean 40 agi = 1 crit and we're using mail gear which generally stacks agility in favour of Hunters who have a better agi:crit ratio.

Not terrible as in worse than current gear, but terrible as in it's basically T4 gear, where pre expansion we're running around with T6 and SP gear.

He's just saying that we're at the bottom of gear progression again, and we have a long way to go before we have the uber gear we're use to.

Toots Hepcat · 09/30/08, 12:25 PM

One thing I've learned about this game -- many people suck at it. I care about what the BEST can do, not what the masses can do.

But if your gear remains constant, you should see DPS decrease a bit as you level, as combat ratings decay and enemies get tougher. Losing 300 dps from a Black Temple 70 to an 80 in greens sounds about right. Certainly there were people in Naxx the first time around doing way better than the 400 dps I did when I first hit 70.

What's up with Edge of Oppression? Speed shouldn't be THAT big a deal that you'd swap a 90 or 100 dps weapon for an 80 dps 1.3.

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Lava lash should, at least, make having a slow offhand less bad. Whether fast or slow is better overall will depend a lot on gear.

Perfect normalization will be impossible given all of our feedback systems; but picking up a higher DPS weapon with better stats regardless of the speed may be within our reach.

Thanks for the details, Toots. I found the problem..... Weapon speed was modifier was being applied too late.

Krim · 09/30/08, 12:38 PM

I don't know Toots!

The damage is so different compared with Merc. Glads Shiv as well, it leads me to think that I should do another test to see if I wasn't just "lucky" or something, y'know? Even so, after 1 million damage is dealt (roughly 7-8 minutes) the DPS should even out and even if you have periods of being out of mana, the DPS shouldn't drop too much.

Hmm! Nevets, that's true - but from all the parses of Naxx 25 I've seen (Patchwerk mainly) Enhancement Shaman are doing comfortable 3.5-4k values, I'm guessing that's a result of raid synergie though. Strange that the DPS basically doubles just because we're in perfect synergie, eh? :P

Malan · 09/30/08, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Krim

Hmm! Nevets, that's true - but from all the parses of Naxx 25 I've seen (Patchwerk mainly) Enhancement Shaman are doing comfortable 3.5-4k values, I'm guessing that's a result of raid synergie though. Strange that the DPS basically doubles just because we're in perfect synergie, eh? :P

And those results are undervalued anyways because WF ranks 6-8 don't work on beta.

dedmonwakeen · 09/30/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Dedmon - no enhancement shaman at 80 is going to be using Executioner and Mongoose on their weapons.

I will shortly sit down and code up all the new enchants as well as the interesting lvl 80 jewelry procs.

Nevets_69 · 09/30/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Krim

Hmm! Nevets, that's true - but from all the parses of Naxx 25 I've seen (Patchwerk mainly) Enhancement Shaman are doing comfortable 3.5-4k values, I'm guessing that's a result of raid synergie though. Strange that the DPS basically doubles just because we're in perfect synergie, eh? :P

I don't think it's a surprise really DPS increased, while all our stats based on ratings plummet on the way to 80, the other stats don't. In the Sim thread they make this exact point with AP. Our AP hasn't decreased on the way to 80, in fact it has certainly increased (which in turn causes our spell power to increase). So all our attacks and spells are hitting harder, if not quite as consistently, or critting quite as often.

I agree that a double of our raid buffed DPS is quite the jump, but Blizzard has said that all DPS classes should be very close to one another in WotLK. So where before we were expected to do 70-85% of a rogue's damage (in general, obviously fight and player dependent) now we should be able to contend on the DPS meters, and a good shaman should generally beat a mediocre rogue. At least if everything Blizzard tells us is true (which isn't always the case).

Krim · 09/30/08, 4:03 PM

If all DPS is balanced for level 80 then at 70 I believe that we're ahead of the DPS game - my DPS jumps from 2200-2300 (with Rising Tide/Edge of Oppression) to around 3k-3.5k in a proper 25 man raid setup; where I gain Sunder Armor, CoElements, CoR etc.. While other classes (Mage being a primary example) are struggling to still pull of 2k dps in the same situations.

This just has me worried, if we synergise that well - being mediocre, perhaps less than mediocre, in solo conditions but then performing at incredibly feats in raids: where we synergise extremely well. I can see Blizzard nerfing us in the long run, so that we don't ever out perform other classes so strongly.

Perhaps I'm acting like a pansy though, eh?

Malan · 09/30/08, 4:53 PM

DPS isn't balanced yet on the PTR or on the Beta clients. Give it a few more weeks, they're still hashing out tanking mechanics right now.

fauxpas · 09/30/08, 8:38 PM

Changes in newest build according to wotlkwiki.info:

Enhancement

* Dual Wield Specialization - Now increases your chance to hit while dual wielding by an additional 1/2/3% (down from 2/4/6%).
* Flurry - Attack speed increase lowered by 5% (Now 5/10/15/20/25) (Old 10/15/20/25/30).
* Stormstrike - 20% damage increase now only effects Nature spells.
* Maelstrom Weapon - Chance for buff to apply lowered, now can proc on any melee weapon hit (noncrit or crit) (New 3/6/9/12/15) (Old 20/40/60/80/100)
* Spirit Wolves - Spirit Hunt - Duration removed.

anji · 09/30/08, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by wotlkwiki.com

Enhancement

* Dual Wield Specialization - Now increases your chance to hit while dual wielding by an additional 1/2/3% (down from 2/4/6%).
* Flurry - Attack speed increase lowered by 5% (Now 5/10/15/20/25) (Old 10/15/20/25/30).
* Stormstrike - 20% damage increase now only effects Nature spells.
* Maelstrom Weapon - Chance for buff to apply lowered, now can proc on any melee weapon hit (noncrit or crit) (New 3/6/9/12/15) (Old 20/40/60/80/100)
* Spirit Wolves - Spirit Hunt - Duration removed.

This looks like a very effective nerf.

20% less damage for our fire spells, 5% less flurry is quite a hit since that effects MW as well, and MW only activating on 15% of all melee dmg? Well this looks like a pretty large shift straight towards melee, so it looks like Blizz managed to accomplish their objective of re-meleeing the Enhancement tree. Just my initial opinion though, but I am pretty sure that the testers will come up with data to support this conclusion.

Main Page - WotlkWiki - Wrath of the Lich King Information. Build 9014

fauxpas · 09/30/08, 8:47 PM

I don't like the stormstrike change. The rest seems to be okay to be honest. Maelstrom not needing crits and lasting for 30 seconds (read that on the us beta forums) seems like a good change.

Damage might be too low now .. but dps numbers change all the time .. i think we have to trust blizzard there :\