Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion. - Page 95

Pitbuller · 10/01/08, 6:34 AM

Maelstorn weapon scale haste exactly same way it did before. Biggest thing was proc change went from 40%(naxx 10man gear give 18% crit and buffs + elemental devastion give 22%) to 15%. This is 62.5% lower than before. Flyrry change cut procs even more about 4%. Dual wield spec was 3% damage increase. 1% is estimated balance per one talent point.

Old numbers:

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS

white               1322.79   27.2%     152.08
flametongue         1054.02   21.67%    152.39
stormstrike         134.89    2.77%     6.69      36.86     24.44%
lava lash           125.86    2.59%     8.20      15.27     10.13%
searing totem       304.14    6.25%     0.00
earth shock         167.25    3.44%     2.87      16.94     11.24%
flame shock         286.47    5.89%     6.02      11.08     7.35%
lava burst          714.81    14.7%     5.62      34.35     22.78%
lightning bolt      505.51    10.39%    6.53      36.28     24.06%
lightning shield    247.46    5.09%     1.09      0.00      0.00%
DPS                 4863.20

New numbers:

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS

white               1192.21   30.85%    142.18
flametongue         998.23    25.83%    140.68
stormstrike         132.92    3.44%     6.68      36.78     31.59%
lava lash           111.09    2.87%     9.31      18.95     16.27%
searing totem       312.12    8.08%     0.00
earth shock         228.05    5.9%      3.80      22.16     19.03%
flame shock         244.20    6.32%     5.68      13.21     11.34%
lava burst          369.65    9.57%     3.56      22.31     19.16%
lightning bolt      40.76     1.05%     0.50      3.03      2.60%
lightning shield    235.31    6.09%     1.00      0.00      0.00%
DPS                 3864.53

20% lower Dps.

Hothgor: Elemental gear wasn't better before this patch and it's not after. Solo testing don't give right result. In solo paly it even might be better but who care about that. Your macro reset swing timer every 8s and this give elemental gear edge.

Mental quickness is almoust only reason that keep melee gear ahead caster gear don't ask nerf to this talent. Blizz could actual buff it if they wan't melee gear be superior.

Edit: changed napkin math to sim results.

Notes:
Maelstorm PPM dropped at 12 to 4.
Lightning knives are still best.
Lavaburst/flameshock still stick at rotation.
Crit scaling RIP.

Gilblade · 10/01/08, 6:43 AM

A possibility I came up with for shifting enh back to melee focus would be to change MW back to an on-crit proc, but at the same time make spells cast with it scale with AP instead of spell damage (I realise MQ already does this, but bear with me.) It would cause gearing for spell power to do nothing apart from making you look like a fool.

If enh DPS ends up too high by doing this they could also attach a CD to using the stacks, or lower the scaling. They could also move elemental devastation back down the tree if need be.

Now, this idea is by no means fully thought through, so feel free to offer up suggestions or shoot it down if you see any large flaws.

Edit: Since doing this would decrease the usefulness of MQ, it may need to be combined with Shamanistic Focus or lowered in cost. Perhaps lower the mana reduction but include spells cast with MW aswell.

Mental Quickness (2 ranks)

Decreases the mana cost of your shock spells and spells cast with maelstrom weapon by 15/30% and increases your spell power by an amount equal to 15/30% of your attack power.

Zackbumm · 10/01/08, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

I was right about the previous weapon setups, Rounced, trust me on this! Look at the post on the Shaman Beta Forums I made. Caster gear is again better than melee gear by leaps and bounds. Looks like its time to call MW a dud and ask them to try something else.

just checked this and i get different results. I´m level 80 and geared in lvl-80-blues with two slow 130dps-weapons and a melee dagger with 1,5 speed /120 dps (so i can check wf/ft if i want to).

maybe my caster gear is outdated (mostly t5/t6) but i get much better results with slow/slow & wf/wf and slow/fast with wf/ft then with my caster gear and caster weapons. melee gear with slow/slow & wf/wf or slow/fast wit wf/ft was always about 100-150 dps better. maybe thats because my caster stuff is not on the same level as my melee gear.

Sprout · 10/01/08, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by Raut

Stop posting about how other classes get better talent counterparts. It has been stated that you cannot compare talents one on one and expect them to be equal. Classes and specs are fundamentally different and most classes/specs have some of these types of talents.

Just to point out the obvious, they reduced Flurry for just that reason.

Sprout · 10/01/08, 7:22 AM

Hoth, regarding your macro/test...it does seem odd that you would cast even if there was a cast time. I could understand it in caster gear, but not in melee gear. When you did the tests using fast fast and fast slow with melee gear did you do this. That might pushng your melee dps down quite a bit due to resetting the swing timer. That having been said I still want a good sim to compare

Caster gear FT/FT
Melee gear WF/fast FT
Melee Gear WF/slow FT
Melee gear WF/WF

I do agree though that it looks like the best bet for 'fixing' out excessive spell dmg and pushing us back towards melee gear would be to get rid of elemental fury as a viable spec. You coudl then revent Imp SS and MW, and we would end up with a higher % of melee dmg and caster equipment is NOT viable.

fauxpas · 10/01/08, 7:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sprout

Just to point out the obvious, they reduced Flurry for just that reason.

Says who?

Pitbuller · 10/01/08, 7:58 AM

If that patch was for tuning down spellpower ep they didn't do it very well. Crit was only stat that take hit. Our scaling with ap taked 10% hit. At 0.56dps/ap to 0.49dps/ap.
Using wf/ft slow/fast our EP values with naxx10man kit is:

D:\Sim>enhsim_lvl80.exe config_lvl80.txt ep

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      3825.06
ap                        1         0.49      
crit rating               1.49      0.72      
hit rating                2.58      1.26      
expertise rating          2.47      1.20   
haste rating              1.67      0.81     
armor penetration rating  0.72      0.35  
spellpower                1.11      0.54    
strength                  1.10      0.53
agility                   1.76      0.86
intelligence              1.29      0.63

Agi/crit/haste and hit suffer far more than spellpower.

Fast/fast with dual flametongues still was 120dps better.

Krim · 10/01/08, 8:07 AM

A DPS drop of 20% is too much in 1 nerf patch, currently on the PTR I am only able to do max 1500~ DPS whereas Ret Pallies have better mana efficiency and can pull off 2k+ dps very easily.

If the values are to balance out at level 80 we're still doing around 3.5k DPS in raid situations, and around 1.6k~ in solo situations. This means that all Blizzard have done is nuked our DPS by reducing it by 20% and still causing us to scale too well in raid sitations.

After all these nerfs though it seems they've totally forgotten about slow speed weapons; faster weapons seem relatively superior compared with slow weapons. I'm seeing only 1300~ DPS with Rising Tide/Mounting Vengeance, and around 1500 dps with Merc. Glad's Shanker/Merc. Glad's Shiv. Both slow weapons were enchanted with WF, fast weapons enchanted with Flametongue.

If Blizzard want to keep Maelstrom Weapon as it is; then allow every damaging ability we have (inc Spirit Wolves/Totems) to proc a Maelstrom Weapon charge, or reduce the amount of charges required to 3 (33/66/100% off casting time).

Malan · 10/01/08, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by fauxpas

Says who?

Reportedly warriors in the beta forum were asking for their flurry and hit talents to be raised to match ours. CM response was that they were both under consideration and that warriors would either get theirs increased, or we would have ours decreased. This is second hand from some guy posting on the beta forum so I don't know how true it is, but that's the story.

♦ Iku · 10/01/08, 8:22 AM

Originally Posted by Krim

A DPS drop of 20% is too much in 1 nerf patch, currently on the PTR I am only able to do max 1500~ DPS whereas Ret Pallies have better mana efficiency and can pull off 2k+ dps very easily.

If the values are to balance out at level 80 we're still doing around 3.5k DPS in raid situations, and around 1.6k~ in solo situations. This means that all Blizzard have done is nuked our DPS by reducing it by 20% and still causing us to scale too well in raid sitations.

Where do you get your DPS numbers from?

Pitbuller · 10/01/08, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by Iku

Where do you get your DPS numbers from?

From this post. Did you even read whole page?

Malan · 10/01/08, 8:27 AM

Originally Posted by Iku

Where do you get your DPS numbers from?

Try reading up like 5 posts.

Raut · 10/01/08, 8:29 AM

I don't doubt that they nerfed Flurry to get in line with warriors, but I highly doubt they nerfed Flurry just to get it in line with warriors. This is a good time to nerf Flurry as enhance needed a nerf.

My remark was more a response to the handful of posts whining about how many talents we have to spend to get ability X and that class Y get the same using Z. I don't have the quote at hand, but it has been stated that this is intended. You cannot use class/spec Y as an argument to move talents in tiers or reduce the amount you need to invest in it just because class/spec Y has it. You need a better argument for the change.

♦ Iku · 10/01/08, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Try reading up like 5 posts.

Sorry, I meant to ask about the solo values compared to the raid buffed values. I read Pitbuller's post, of course, but that only covered raid DPS numbers (which is what is interesting in the end, but if we want to evaluate if we scale too well with raid buffs and debuffs, we shouldn't mix sources).

Utters · 10/01/08, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Reportedly warriors in the beta forum were asking for their flurry and hit talents to be raised to match ours. CM response was that they were both under consideration and that warriors would either get theirs increased, or we would have ours decreased. This is second hand from some guy posting on the beta forum so I don't know how true it is, but that's the story.

Blue post on flurry. This is the post that had the blues commenting on out flurry talent. Saw no indication as to the hit talent but the flurry portion is there.

Tana Umaga · 10/01/08, 9:40 AM

New DW talks about "chance to hit", did the old one (in old beta patches) read the same? I mean, does it affect spell hit now?

polocabbit · 10/01/08, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Tana Umaga

New DW talks about "chance to hit", did the old one (in old beta patches) read the same? I mean, does it affect spell hit now?

Dual Wield Spec from wowhead shows the following:

Live

Apply Aura: Mod Hit Chance
Value: 6

Beta

[Apply Aura]: Mod Hit Chance
Value: 3

Gavain · 10/01/08, 10:01 AM

DW was already changed one or to builds ago to "chance to hit".

So it should affect spells + physical attacks.

Malan · 10/01/08, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Gavain

DW was already changed one or to builds ago to "chance to hit".

So it should affect spells + physical attacks.

Except it doesn't as we've repeatedly stated here.

Rouncer · 10/01/08, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

I was right about the previous weapon setups, Rounced, trust me on this! Look at the post on the Shaman Beta Forums I made. Caster gear is again better than melee gear by leaps and bounds. Looks like its time to call MW a dud and ask them to try something else.

Not sure if someone else posted in between this and now but I wanted to respond to this specific point last night but was too tired to do it clearly.

There is another option to make slow weapons more viable and to clean up the issue with Improved Stormstrike without revamping everything done so far and they already have the mechanics in place to make it work easily.

Change Stormstrike to an attack with both weapons but with the damage applied as Nature instead of melee. The attacks would act just like Lava Lash in that it would be able to proc weapon imbues and would scale based on Attackpower instead of Spellpower.

Stormstrike then becomes a much more significant source of damage (especially if it gets the same additional bonus from Elemental Fury that Lava Lash is still? getting). It then also becomes something that would be able to utilize it's own buff giving a lot more validity to Improved Stormstrike in the process.

Krim · 10/01/08, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Iku

Sorry, I meant to ask about the solo values compared to the raid buffed values. I read Pitbuller's post, of course, but that only covered raid DPS numbers (which is what is interesting in the end, but if we want to evaluate if we scale too well with raid buffs and debuffs, we shouldn't mix sources).

Well, my tests on the PTR pre-patch and post-patch have been posted here, they show basically 2k-2.1k~ solo DPS dropping to barely 1500~ solo DPS (with the added bonus of still going OOM relatively quick). This can be mirrored at 80where we are back at starting gear progression; so if anything the DPS is either inline with 70 Sunwell levels - or just below, possibly a bit above.

Does this help?

Koltas · 10/01/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Stormstrike then becomes a much more significant source of damage (especially if it gets the same additional bonus from Elemental Fury that Lava Lash is still? getting). It then also becomes something that would be able to utilize it's own buff giving a lot more validity to Improved Stormstrike in the process.

Currently, with Elemental Fury, Lava Lash is critting for 200% damage instead of 300%. I guess it was an unintended change after all.

polocabbit · 10/01/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Change Stormstrike to an attack with both weapons but with the damage applied as Nature instead of melee. The attacks would act just like Lava Lash in that it would be able to proc weapon imbues and would scale based on Attackpower instead of Spellpower.

Stormstrike then becomes a much more significant source of damage (especially if it gets the same additional bonus from Elemental Fury that Lava Lash is still? getting). It then also becomes something that would be able to utilize it's own buff giving a lot more validity to Improved Stormstrike in the process.

If they moved Stromstrike damage to be nature, then I would foresee a change to the Stromstrike debuff itself since Stromstrike after the first initial one would then feed back into itself.

Also, how do physical attacks that do spell damage work? Does it ignore armor completely or is it basically just like a physical attack?

Philondra · 10/01/08, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Raut

I don't doubt that they nerfed Flurry to get in line with warriors, but I highly doubt they nerfed Flurry just to get it in line with warriors. This is a good time to nerf Flurry as enhance needed a nerf.

My remark was more a response to the handful of posts whining about how many talents we have to spend to get ability X and that class Y get the same using Z. I don't have the quote at hand, but it has been stated that this is intended. You cannot use class/spec Y as an argument to move talents in tiers or reduce the amount you need to invest in it just because class/spec Y has it. You need a better argument for the change.

If you are referring to my comparison between Shaman dual wield specialization and Rogue dual wield specialization (see the first post of the previous page), I believe I made a clear and rational case for moving the Shaman DW spec to both spell hit and melee hit specifically because 1% melee-only hit translates to much less than 1% of total DPS. Given that Ghostcrawler stated specifically that they tend to budget one talent point to provide a DPS increase of approximately 1% (with a lot of fudge factor), nerfing dual wield specialization to provide significantly less benefit than 1% is an odd way to nerf enhancement DPS. I'm pretty sure most of us agree that ourDPS needed to be brought down out of the rafters, but nerfing dual wield specialization in such a way was not an optimal way to do it. Fixing the odd behavior with flametongue scaling, or changing elemental weapons to not provide such a drastic boost to WF would both be ways to accomplish a similar goal of lowering overall DPS without making dual wield specialization extremely underbudgeted.

Krim · 10/01/08, 10:55 AM

Ignores armor, but can be resisted through Nature resistance I guess.