Rouncer

That's the whole idea, to have it feed back into itself using up 2 of the charges with every Stormstrike and to boost a melee attack by 20%, especially a melee attack that scales much better with slow weapons.

It would also then benefit from CoE/ebon plague so the damage would be even higher in a raid which would again help to boost the viable of slower weapons.

Right now Improved Stormstrike is practically useless. We barely use up the 2 charges from the normal Stormstrike talent and since Stormstrike (even with slow weapons) is such a small portion of our total dps having a 25% increase in Stormstrike damage just isn't worth it. The reduced cooldown only gives 3 additional hits over the course of a minute so it doesn't even help that much with Maelstrom Weapon. When testing with Slow/Slow either with WF/FT or WF/FT I was showing that 25% increase in the number of Stormstrikes as being worth a 1.6% damage increase or about 25dps for 2 points. Lava Lash for comparison was 3x the dps/damage for only 1 point. Stormstrike was 4x the dps/damage for that 1 point. I haven't tested it yet but I would bet that even Static Shock is more damage per point right now then Improved Stormstrike.

 

Atren

I was thinking about scaling problem, what if would make our WF totem not stack with our weapon imbues as base (as in additional balancing changes from that base) instead of the changes we had? It would make easier for soloing saving a totem as well as make us bit better on pvp as in my opinion we need really high dps to stand chance in there with current rules. I am not expert pvper altough so i can be wrong.

 

• Raut

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular, Philondra. More of a general observation. Complaining about talents bringing too little to the table is fine. Whining about a fundamentally different class having say a 3p talent we have to spend 5 points in doesn't contribute one bit. Maybe it does on the beta forum, I dunno.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Krim

Wondering here.

How competitive is our DPS now in Naxx 10/25's? Are we still doing well, or will we be replaced by DK's / Hunters moreso?

 

Pitbuller

I am disapointed that Blizzard did listen casual pvp boys and changed Maelstorm weapons proc based instead of crit. I understand that damage have to be balanced but why kill scaling at same time. Warriors have two crit based extra attack proc. Sudden death execute and bloodsurge slam. Those both skill scale with crit too. Lava burst don't nor flame shock. This balanced crit scaling a lot. 100% chance per crit was bit overkill but that was what they should have lower not just ignore scaling. Old worked in pvp like fnisher. When you have just critted your opponent couple time then you have abilty to do last bit of burst. Now it just every 33rd hit ability. Lava burst was good extra abilty for our arsenal now it's do less damage than Consecration.

Positive things: Slow wf/ Fast ft build damage was lowered only 16%. Damage at 70lvl went down only 18%. We do still more damage than elemental shamans. Caster weapons still rock. Our rotation is much easier now. Sky didn't fall afterall.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Mman

If the reason they changed maelstrom is for pvp, I honestly don't see the need. Sure, it is harder to get crits in pvp, but you also didn't need a full stack to make the talent worthwhile. Even at half a stack it would be a powerful talent to do quick damage at a distance or lower the cast time for a quick heal.

Has anybody done testing on what the proc rate is on the new maelstrom? Is it a PPM or just a flat percentage?

 

Dsalt

I speced enhancement on ptr and equiped my healing gear, so 0 hit from gear. Of the 1 000 LBs against the lvl 70 dummy I missied 48, so no dw spec does not apply to spells.

 

• Shabadu

I've been brainstorming possible ways to change Maelstrom to not favor spell damage. It's the only thing I can do at work waiting tables since all I get is a short break to use my Iphone.

My first thought was to have a modifier on top of the damage spells based on weapon speed. Fast weapons would get a coefficient hit to compensate for the faster buildup of charges, while slower weapons would get a smaller penalty.

The other idea had to do with improving the use of Lava Lash and Stormstrike, giving them a greater chance to proc Maelstrom charges, at the expense of a lower chance outside of the 2 abilities. Giving this extra benefit to our melee instants would favor higher damage melee weapons.

Some other things I think that need to be done to skew us away from dual FT are removing or reducing the spell power benefit from double imbuing and to let FT scale better with melee stats and weapon speed.

 

berg

This is a weird question because it implies that be even with other classes (as they stand now) means that it is correct somehow. Previously enhance dps was very competitive in relation to the other classes which are all doing too much damage through bugs or overpowered design.

All I can say is sit tight and rest assured that there is no way that Wotlk ships with
Rogues with wildly bugged mutilate.
Survival hunters with wildly bugged shots. (fixes and nerfs in place and more on the way)
Unholy dk's who are so broken that words fail me. (This tree will get detonated soon.)
Affliction locks (Sure lets throw in crit dots as an after thought what could go wrong?)
and of course Ret Paladins.

They are all going to eat the pain too. Except they will have longer to delude themselves into thinking that they are not broken and their nerfs will come weeks prior to launch and cause some truly amazing forum fireworks.


Also I know much fewer people raided back in the day but does anyone remember karazhan the first month of expansion? It was actually hard. Even if you had naxx gear. The new nax is supposed to be easier, I know this. But the raid dps is so high that every encounter is a joke. The excessive simplicity of Naxx should be the first hint at where dps is now and where it is heading. This applies to everyone, not just enhance.

So everyone that is up in arms should fixate their attention on things that matter like improving bad/boring mechanics like spirit wolves and static shock.

 

berg

Static Shock, Lash and Stormstrike need to interact in a way that provokes some kind of thought and decision from the Shaman. Anyone who played last night probably had my same worry of 'oh no... this is mindless'

What made MW great, for me, was not the damage it gave but reacting when it put you in a weird spot by filling up too fast or too slow etc.

 

Hothgor

I was using the premade gear sets. Melee gear with a melee testing and caster gear for 'caster' testing. Obviously I couldn't get my hands on a caster offhand, so I used a slow offhand for much higher lava lash hits. Now you say that you are geared in level 80 blues. Is that premade gear or just quested/dungeon dropped blue gear. The distinction needs to be made.

 

Krim

Just did a DPS test (1,000,000 damage~) on the PTR with this spec: 8/53/0 and this was the result: (using Rising Tide/Edge of Oppression, WF/FT)

1492.5 dps

Not Shown:
Searing Totem: 100.1 dps
Spirit Wolves: 274.8 dps

Looks like Maelstrom weapon doesn't proc from WF, SS or FT either.

(((1186/100)*15)/5) = 35.58

 

• kasik047

I think the nerf to stormstrike is giving them the opposite effect than they thought it would. It doesn't change the fact that we are still getting an extreme amount of damage from spells. Possible change is to change stormstrike back to affecting fire/frost/nature damage but only at 10% (and make improved another 5%) and give stormstrike do extra melee damage or grant extra attack power that would give it enough damage to put it ahead of lava lash in rotations(or priority lists as it seems). It gives you more melee damage as wanted and still makes a flame shock > lava lash on MW procs the ideal spell damage rotation

 

Skreekins

I really like Rounced's suggestion to make stormstrike deal nature damage. It was actually an idea that I was pushing early on in the beta. It would certainly increase the effectiveness of melee stats. It also falls in line with shaman "striking their foes with the power of the elements" or whatever.

At any rate, this latest round of changes is puzzling at best. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the developer meetings.

 

Mman

What makes you think Blizzard wanted to just nerf the amount of spell damage we did? The DW Spec and Furry nerfs affect our white damage. The only thing we know Blizzard wants is for us not to use caster weapons, and nerfing our two main sources of white damage improvements in the tree doesn't exactly seem to do that.

 

Skreekins

logic seems to be the best tool for this job:

Problems that need solving:

1) Enhancement is doing too much damage
2) So much of enhancement's damage is spell damage that they are all wearing caster gear and getting better results.

Logical Solution:

Nerf the amount of damage Enhancement shaman deal with spells

Blizzard's Solution (tentative):

Nerf all of enhancement's damage, physical and spell.


It is definitely wrong right now, but beta is beta and tweaks will (hopefully) be made. Also, it is worth noting that the problem was not only with caster weapons (though that definitely is/was a problem), but wearing all caster gear and producing better results than melee gear.

 

dspacedog

I was just testing that and, based on the combat log (I lack better tools to check it), it seems to me it does proc from WF and SS, sometimes from both hits. Can anyone provide more accurate data on this?

P.S.- first post here

 

Rouncer

I've been putzing around with the Sim all morning and it's a bit strange.

When you start to change around the priorities to match the weapon speeds there is an incredible parity between all the options.

By only playing with the priorities and not touching anything else besides weapon imbue and weapon speed all the options were roughly 1% apart (dismissing the retarded choices like slow mainhand with Flametongue or fast weapon with Windfury).

Even once I added the Glyphs it still stayed roughly the same with FT-F/FT-F > WF-S/WF-S = WF-S/FT-S = WF-S/FT-F but the greater then mark isn't for 1 or 2% it was about 20dps better or 0.5% provided I shifted the priority list around depending on whether it was for slow weapons or for faster ones.

When I say equal btw that really means equal, they were ~4dps apart over 10 sim runs of 5000 hours each and it varied back and forth which one was better.

The AeP values were all over the place for the various choices so really not sure what to make of all this just yet.


No, Hoth, I didn't try inputting caster stats or caster weapons. Even if they end up being 2% better then the melee alternatives I'll be using the melee stuff simply because, unless it is gonna rot, I couldn't justify taking a caster weapon over having it go to an actual caster for a small upgrade when I have other options. Especially since there will be a lot of people in the raid who will need those one-hand caster weapons and far fewer who will want the same melee ones as me.



edited the middle paragraph after I reran the sim numbers with the Lightning Shield glyph added in

 

Toots Hepcat

Is this true?

Last time I ran my 3.0 gear comparison, there were a few pieces of caster gear on the list (Hood of Hexing for example), but NO weapons. Caster weapon DPS is too low and the speeds are all wrong. Spells are still only around half our damage, I can't see how wearing "all caster gear" could ever give "better results."

But if you're trying to control damage output, and remove the ability to game the system through hit, haste and speed, seems to me the simplest way to fix things is to make MW a proc per minute effect similar to Unbridled Wrath. Switching the proc to on-hit will eventually fix the situation, but only once you've nerfed the proc rate to the point of absurdity. 13% of hits doesn't do that.

 

Krim

 

Skreekins

It was an oversimplification to make a point. Sorry for the confusion.

Caster gear in any slot should NEVER be better than a melee equivalent piece, and this latest round of changes seems to indicate that blizz missed a golden opportunity to make this happen while simultaneously lowering our DPS potential when they nerfed our melee abilities as well (Dual Wield Specialization and Flurry). Here's hoping they fix it.

 

Toots Hepcat

I don't know that that's possible...they merged hit, crit and haste and we get AP from int, so it's entirely conceivable that a well rounded caster piece could outpower a melee piece.

[Hood of Hexing], for example, has a ton of hit and crit, 33 int and 3 gem slots. Compare with [Coif of the Jungle Stalker], you've got Agi, AP and Armor Pen vs Crit Rating, Hit Rating and Spell Damage. With weights about 2.5 each, it's the Hit and Crit that make it such a good piece, not the spell damage...and hit rating just got more important.

Even in 2.0, that sort of thing happens all the time -- think shaman wearing leather, or the Paladin belt my warrior has. Heck, the Shard of Contempt is one of the best tanking items out there, offering more threat gen in the slot than any piece designed with tanks in mine. It's the price of trying to be flexible, both in gear design and class design.

 

Rouncer

You know that recount shows each Windfury and Stormstrike as an individual attack so you don't double the number to account for them. Flametongue Weapon hits are spells so they don't give Maelstrom Weapon charges (works from melee hits only).

So you have 1186 melee hits but 153 of those were misses so that's 1033 melee hits.

The screenshot doesn't show SS or WF details but even assuming no misses at all that would be another 240 hits.

So that's 1033+240=1277 or 191 procs which would be 38 full 5 count stacks of MW.

So, yes, you did the math wrong.

 

Rapparee

me being a jerk and telling you what developers did, even though i have no proof
I know that I haven't talked enhance numbers in a long time, but it's obvious that this pass was just the nerf enhance shaman damage overall and wasn't concerned with adjusting spell related damage to physical damage.

my real reason to post:
Just how close does Ember Skyflare get to these other two metas for an enhance shaman?
Meta gems:
Chaotic Skyflare Diamond - +21crit, 3%crit dam
Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - 21 agi, 3% crit dam
Ember Skyflare Diamond - 25 spell power, 2%int

EDIT-> Nevermind, i used Pitbuller's EP values and 21agility is worth ~37 AP
25spellpower = ~28AP, 2%int when an 80shaman wears about 350int in ilvl213epics+ something near 222 in base+buffs is about 15AP.
As long as 3% increased crit damage is worth 7 or 8 AP, then the Relentless meta is the better meta out of that list.
Did I miss any reasonable meta gem choice?



To really enjoy the developments of MW you can read the following, but I promise it offers no credible insight into MW mechanics:

The obvious buff to MW: letting you cast CH.
I've not seen any of you comment on just how incredibly useful that will be, when you're trying to solo with a greater fire elemental out and need to heal both it and yourself.
Or how in arena, that the mage you and your partner were melee-abusing just frost nova'd or blastwaved both of you. No longer are you restricted to dropping earthbind in order to free yourselves. . . the joke is on him, you can cast CH now... probably more like (2.5*0.6) seconds from now, since MW was only stacked to 2.

 

Krim

Ahh, I see. Thank you for correcting me Rounced.

It's depressing trying to DPS on the PTR at the moment. Enhancement DPS has to much focus on RNG, during some tests with Rising Tide/Merc. Glads. Shiv I'm hitting 1800 DPS and at other times barely hitting 1200. I really believe Blizzard need to sort Enhancement out, having too many RNG abilities will just cause chaos in raid instances where DPS values take a good 5-6 minutes of continuous hitting to balance out; we'll either be high or low - depending on how RNG favours the player...

... 9 times out of 10 RNG doesn't favour the player. That's my view, anyway.

Rapparee, unless you're specced into Improved Chain Heal, (along with the other +healing talents: Purification etc) Chain Heal doesn't heal for as much as you believe. As Enhancement it wont even heal competitively.