Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 104

Binkenstein · 11/03/08, 9:55 PM

What's the current mechanic (and the intended) for the Earth Shock Glyph?

Daidalos · 11/04/08, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

What's the current mechanic (and the intended) for the Earth Shock Glyph?

Currently it takes ES down to the low end limit of the GCD i.e. 1s I think there is a post in the beta forums about it with a blue response since it in effect only takes .5s off instead of 1s like the glyph says. If they are going to fix this or not its not entirely clear.

gothic · 11/04/08, 2:04 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Currently it takes ES down to the low end limit of the GCD i.e. 1s I think there is a post in the beta forums about it with a blue response since it in effect only takes .5s off instead of 1s like the glyph says. If they are going to fix this or not its not entirely clear.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - GC, bug with the Earth Shock glyph

This was the only post I could find on it when I went searching around the other day.

tufy · 11/04/08, 2:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ocyr

And you wonder why people believe the math on this forum over Blizzards math? Their math is about as accurate as mine, when I was in the second grade. (edit: and for the record, I already did the math on Balance Druid vs Elemental Shaman as of this latest patch, and Elemental came up about 9% short -- as I have previously posted. I'll be done with Mage and Warlock comparisons this week hopefully. And 9% is huge, by the way, when you are comparing yourself to another Hybrid caster that brings the better buffs to the raid than you do.).

Doing the same as you right now (boomkin vs. elesham vs. fire mage) and the results in dps difference were even greater than yours (I'm not sure about a few modifiers on boomkins, though; inquiry in progress :p). It should be noted, though, that I'm using the optimum available gear at current T7, with optimum available rotations. Btw., geared up in best available gear right now, we'll be at slightly over 19% haste without gemming (which I had to spend nearly all on hit to cap it anyway; I ended up with 3 reds + 2 BS gem slots empty). So much for trying to avoid negative haste hole :p

Othinn · 11/04/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...9NlzrKGw&hl=en

My copy of the math from that thread.

Just pip 4k dps with the listed gear/buffs/etc (2.8k spellpower, 43% crit (+5% for nature) hit capped and 19.17% haste)

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see you including any Totem(Totem of Hex) in your calculations?

Binkenstein · 11/04/08, 11:53 PM

Ah yes, good point, I'd forgotten about that, although it's probably easier to handle the calculations without the relics at this stage.

Othinn · 11/05/08, 12:56 AM

The addition of the damage totem (Totem of Hex) is interesting in that it basically removes the need to include ES in the rotation and just run with a LvB/FS/4CL/LB rotation (depends a little on gear levels but therotations appear to generate almost identical dps).

Duno · 11/05/08, 5:08 PM

Huzzah. From GC today, TLDR version:

We’d like to give Elemental either a talent that converts Int to spell power or gives a better spell power to damage conversion (or both). We just don’t know yet if we’ll do this through existing talents or new talents. I’ll announce it when we know.

LINK

Sathyra · 11/06/08, 5:24 AM

From GC, the big post from the link on the post above:

Elemental scaling
You can do things (well, *we* can do things) like make 10,000 spell power gear and then see what the damage numbers look like. Assume Boomkin and Elemental dps was close at Naxx-level gear, but Boomkin pulled way ahead with the 10,000 spell power gear. That means Balance scales a lot better. That’s probably not a problem if it takes 10,000 spell power to get there, because there will be new levels and gear and everything will have changed by that time. If it takes 2000 or 3000 spell power then it probably is a problem.

We’d like to give Elemental either a talent that converts Int to spell power or gives a better spell power to damage conversion (or both). We just don’t know yet if we’ll do this through existing talents or new talents. I’ll announce it when we know.

So they r doing some comparisons of their own. I wonder how the gap btw 2000 to 3000 spellpower is btw classes though, so even if we r doing ok naxx geared, how is it going to be on tier 8 gear lvl ?

tufy · 11/06/08, 5:40 AM

Duno: I bet they'll change ToW or Flametongue to give less spellpower at T7 than now solo, but based on intellect instead of a static buff.

Sathyra: we're not doing ok. At T7 gear level, we're already at over 2700 spellpower (nearly 3000 spellpower on CL and LB with Totem of Hex) and 15% behind Boomkins (who in turn are 15% behind top dps specs such as Fire mages). The higher the gear level, the more this difference will grow.

Dinian · 11/06/08, 12:35 PM

I have faith that GC and crew will not let the current state of affairs in naxx stand. Let's assume we catch up to boomkins or even slightly gain on them since they offer more raid buffs. Then we still need to be concerned about how our performance will be in further tiers.

To be frank, I'm less concerned about our T7 dps or even our T8 dps. I'm sure whatever buffs Blizzard will provide to our output will be sufficient. The real concern is our complicated relationship to haste rating. I used to play a hunter and raided the old world through MC, BWL, AQ, and Naxx as one. The degenerate state of affairs back then regarding hunter relationship to bow attack speeds is coming back full force in my head.

As others have pointed out in this thread, the LvB/CL with LB filler during cooldowns mechanic simply don't scale as well with haste rating as our brethren in the DPS role. Looking at that chart posted above with the "breakout" values where our DPS actually scales with marginal increases of haste rating makes me shudder. Random procs that grant haste rating, potions or future northrend consumables that may grant haste rating, and even slight deviations of haste like the addition of the first retribution paladin may have a near-zero effect on our output.

This simply is not fun. I agree they can't keep every spec unique and have their own flavor while at the same time allowing everybody to benefit from mechanics like crit and haste equally. But they have put a serious effort into dot scaling on crit and shadow priests are scaling far better with haste than they ever did before with the changes haste has on channeled times. Our moonkin brothers and sisters scale really quite well with haste rating even with things like eclipse that give them incentives to move from a shadowbolt-spam rotation to a more diverse one.

I'm going to be watching closely to see if Blizzard's buffs will still leave the current scenario where Lava Bursts are SO important that clipping our auto shots, er... lightning bolts, are worth it in most cases and therefore leave us in a horrible condition relative to haste scaling.

Ocyr · 11/06/08, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Duno

Huzzah. From GC today, TLDR version:

LINK

That's interesting. In one part of the post, GC seems to say that they think Elemental damage is fine but if scaling becomes a problem down the road, they will fix it -- then in another part, he seems to be saying that they are moving ahead with changes that include scaling talents / talent changes, and AOE. Speaking of AOE, I had heard that there was a post stating Blizzard was leaning towards a Ball Lightning / Static Charge-type AOE but I have not been able to find anything posted. Has anyone else seen or heard this, or is that just another rumor.

Sathyra · 11/06/08, 4:24 PM

the only comparison i could match with lavaburst is to conflagrate, although they r completely different. The factor that creates this complicated haste issue on our rotations is that the control on lavaburst is totally done on its cooldown. While the talent fire and brimstone for locks make it so that conflagrate has more chance of critting if immolate has 5 seconds or less on the target. Im not great on math, but perhaps if we can present options that change the actual mechanic to something with more options and more room for error. Cause for fact i know latency will be hellish to manage with that 18 sec rotation.

heliosaff · 11/06/08, 4:47 PM

I have no idea whether or not could be viable, but I was playing with the idea of how much dual weilding weapons with caster enchants and FT could help spellpower and this build happens to benefit from increased stormstrike damage.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It forfeits Totem of Wrath and Lightning overload, but aside from those, there's not a whole lot at the top end of the elemental tree that actually increases damage, so i'm wondering if the additional spellpower from dualwielding and a stormstrike debuff to feed off of could actually create and interesting melee elemental playstyle similar to the way enhance shamans were playing with spellpower itemization in beta.

Torrential · 11/06/08, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by heliosaff

I have no idea whether or not could be viable, but I was playing with the idea of how much dual weilding weapons with caster enchants and FT could help spellpower and this build happens to benefit from increased stormstrike damage.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It forfeits Totem of Wrath and Lightning overload, but aside from those, there's not a whole lot at the top end of the elemental tree that actually increases damage, so i'm wondering if the additional spellpower from dualwielding and a stormstrike debuff to feed off of could actually create and interesting melee elemental playstyle similar to the way enhance shamans were playing with spellpower itemization in beta.

No.