sjogren

Ehh... 8 sec cooldown on Lava Burst? Or what am I missing?

 

Anksunamun

You are right, the only rotation possible is FS, CL, LB, LB, LB, LaB for many reasons
-you can cast LaB only every 8 sec
-I think you can consume only YOUR FS, like immolate-->conflagrate
-if you use LaB after few seconds you casted your FS, the final dps should be too low, better wait 3 ticks and cast LaB before the last one
-the rotation above is perfect because it ends at 11 seconds ( at 12 seconds the last tick of FS will deal damage)
-this rotation is good also because you can start with elemental mastery --> the mana cost of your next 2 spells is reduced by 40% and as you can see, our highest cost spells are FS and CL so:
elemental mastery
FS
CL
LB
LB
LB
LaB (crit 100%)

FS
CL
LB
..


and don't even forget that our best damage spells are LB and CL, FS and LaB are being introduced because we were spamming LB or LB and CL only, that is pretty annoing

 

Ocyr

One thing I found, that surprised me, was that on a fully raid de-buffed target Lava Burst spam seems to have a higher average DPS than does Lighting Bolt spam. But both spam-rotations result in lower DPS than a true rotation.

In answer to other questions / comments that came up:

-I haven't factored Chain Lightning yet, but because it gains 125% of damage (assuming 3 targets) I would guess that working it into the rotation whenever there is more than 1 target would be wise (assuming no contrary mana limitations)

- I was using LavB in that specific rotation only every 6-7 seconds to allow FlameS to gain benefit from 2 DoT ticks, however as stated just above, there was a all-LavB rotation in the mix, so no there is no cool-down on the spell (as far as I know, apparently some people are saying they believe there is a cool-down so we'll have to see).

 

sjogren

What do you mean no cooldown? All screenshots of Lava Burst that I've seen, it has an 8 second cooldown. Has something changed in recent builds?

 

tufy

That's nothing special, really. Lava Burst gains a lot of boosts in Elemental tree and on top of that, gains from Imp. Scorch and CoE as well.

Even without 3 targets, CL has a headstart in damage. Specifically, CL has 1042 base damage (mana cost 1695) and LB has 765 base damage (mana cost 685). Due to the excessive mana cost rise on CL, it's prudent to cast it during Lava Burst crit reduction to cover some of its mana cost. What's great here is that we can predict when we'll crit and when to use our most expensive spells to boost damage.

Anyway, CL has a headstart over LB. The question is how much this headstart is. It's easy to calculate, so I'm letting someone else do it, cuz I'm half asleep right now :p

See the first post of this thread, there's specific data on Lava Burst. Here's a screenie for proof:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7798/lavaboomyz7.jpg

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Ocyr

Good points. And thanks for the screen shot link. I updated my math post to reflect the 8s CD and added Chain Lightning into two rotations. It did change the results (namely, the 8s LavB CD lowered DPS, but the CL addition offset some of the lessened DPS -- but not all -- and the "best" rotation changed to rotation 1).

 

Tana Umaga

True, although if the spell just before LaB crits, then the LaB crit only refreshes the duration, but not the charges, thus not reducing the cost of CL unless FS also crits. This is a mechanic the devs should have a look at, every other charges buff I remember refreshes the charges when procced except EF.

 

Raglu

Sorry for steering the topic back to Elemental Oath, but when I first saw Elemental Oath, I saw it almost purely as a PvP talent. Though resilience takes away some of the crit that Elemental Shaman operate their Elemental Focus on, EF is still up a lot of the time in an Arena, no?

As such, this is to guarantee that Elemental Shamans get their abilities to work whenever their enemy pulls something off like Cloak of Shadows, or has a higher chance to be missed, such as a Frost Mage with Arctic Winds. This actually removes a bit of the randomness inherent in shamans, by not leaving that finishing blow up to RNG.

As far as PvE for Elemental Oath, I'm not even sure they intended it to be used for that. However, skipping Spell Hit as much as possible--how easy is that when PvE gearing?

 

Ocyr

Currently? I don't know of any Sunwell-raiding Shaman that gem for +spell hit. I do know some who skip the Restoration +hit talents because they are already so far over the hit cap the points are worthless to them (just because of all the spell hit stats on end-game gearing).

At level 80? No idea.

 

Phlis

I was working on creating an equation for Elemental Oath based on current Hit and Crit%, ie, how much hit% you gain from 2/2 of the talent(easier, but not impossible to do the same for 1/2). I made 2 graphs, 1 which tracked hit% gains vs current hit% going from 83% hit to 98% hit and a second which tracked hit% gained vs crit% going from 0% crit to 50% crit in increments of 5. The formulas for the lines on these graphs are:



x = Hit
y = -0.000029x^2 - 0.002519x + 0.061261 {Crit = 0.00}
y = -0.000031x^2 - 0.003214x + 0.073564 {Crit = 0.05}
y = -0.000032x^2 - 0.003876x + 0.085153 {Crit = 0.10}
y = -0.000033x^2 - 0.004509x + 0.096045 {Crit = 0.15}
y = -0.000032x^2 - 0.005137x + 0.106339 {Crit = 0.20}
y = -0.000031x^2 - 0.005716x + 0.115896 {Crit = 0.25}
y = -0.000029x^2 - 0.006278x + 0.124795 {Crit = 0.30}
y = -0.000025x^2 - 0.006823x + 0.133051 {Crit = 0.35}
y = -0.000022x^2 - 0.007303x + 0.140496 {Crit = 0.40}
y = -0.000020x^2 - 0.007741x + 0.147289 {Crit = 0.45}
y = -0.000017x^2 - 0.008157x + 0.153421 {Crit = 0.50}

x = Crit
y = -0.000327x^2 + 0.012576x + 0.046472 {Hit = 0.83}
y = -0.000310x^2 + 0.011815x + 0.044600 {Hit = 0.84}
y = -0.000295x^2 + 0.011076x + 0.042639 {Hit = 0.85}
y = -0.000276x^2 + 0.010295x + 0.040716 {Hit = 0.86}
y = -0.000258x^2 + 0.009521x + 0.038730 {Hit = 0.87}
y = -0.000238x^2 + 0.008728x + 0.036684 {Hit = 0.88}
y = -0.000222x^2 + 0.007983x + 0.034461 {Hit = 0.89}
y = -0.000200x^2 + 0.007175x + 0.032315 {Hit = 0.90}
y = -0.000181x^2 + 0.006400x + 0.030040 {Hit = 0.91}
y = -0.000159x^2 + 0.005597x + 0.027749 {Hit = 0.92}
y = -0.000139x^2 + 0.004818x + 0.025360 {Hit = 0.93}
y = -0.000115x^2 + 0.004003x + 0.022961 {Hit = 0.94}
y = -0.000093x^2 + 0.003201x + 0.020529 {Hit = 0.95}
y = -0.000070x^2 + 0.002404x + 0.017979 {Hit = 0.96}
y = -0.000048x^2 + 0.001614x + 0.015336 {Hit = 0.97}
y = -0.000025x^2 + 0.000813x + 0.012687 {Hit = 0.98}

I just haven't combined them yet, but if someone else wants to they can. For a 51/0/20 build with 40% crit you gain 5.7% hit from 2/2 elemental Oath(Alliance) and 6.5% Hit(Horde), both builds would end up at 98.5% hit with 0 hit from gear. For a 43/28/0 build with Totem of Wrath, and elemental precision, you would gain 8.8% hit from my currently flawed equations, and end up around 97% hit, and obviously you wouldn't be taking elemental oath anyway so it doesn't matter. I can pretty easily run another set of tests once I fix how Elemental Oath is calculated. Uptime is easy enough, actual hit gains are a little harder, these tests were run just considering uptime, and also only a 51/0/20 build which takes 2/2 EO instead of Thunder(bringing hit up to 99% rather then 98%).

Edit: I already know how to fix the EO thing, it's a simple change of one line of code from (x <= 99) to (x <= ((Hit - 83)*(1 + 0.5 * EOTalentPoints) + Hit)) in an IF statement.

 

Mirranda

Has anyone checked the new ranks of flame shocks? Is it possible that they just make the level 80 version of it the only shock with a 30yd range? It is a possibility, is it not?

Also, totems going raid wide I think is a poor idea in most cases because you'd have the so-called "totem-wenches" who have to drop totems while the rest of the shamans don't, just as warlocks have do with curses. Warlocks only have to do it once every 5 minutes though and only for one GCD, while shamans do it ever 2 and it's up to 4 GCDs, and at least in our raids, our healer shamans already complain about dropping totems as is, so I don't expect that if they go raid wide that healing shamans are going to be the totem-wenches.

And as has already been stated, it takes away the uniqueness of having shaman in your raid of multiple specs (aside from one enhancement shaman for UR) and would overall reduce the amount of Shaman taken to a raid significantly (which may be the goal of Blizzard?)

Pretend I typed something witty.

 

Ocyr

It was also stated by Blizzard GMs that Enhancement Shaman in T6 did "scary damage" and yet anyone in an end-game raid knows that this is not true. e.g. don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I've never bought the argument that raid-wide benefits from Shaman buffs would decrease the number of Shaman that a raid would want.

Enhancement Shaman: raids only take 1 or 2 anyway

Elemental Shaman: raids only take 0-2 anyway

Restoration Shaman: raids take good healers no matter what

Also, 20-30 totem range isn't "raid buffing" on the level of Paladin raid buffing, say. 20-30 yard range is almost meaningless to the raid on many encounters (Archimond, some phases of Illidan, Kalecgos et cetera), and does in no way compare to Paladin Blessings and Judgements, which are actually beneficial to everyone in the raid no matter what their positioning.

In short, the change should be beneficial to the raid without being harmful to the Shaman. Yes, it does probably mean there is no real reason to bring more than 1 or 2 Enhancement Shaman -- but there is already no real reason to do that unless you're looking at a raid that can't fill a melee spot (and I've never seen a server with a shortage of Rogues and Fury Warriors). Same for Elemental Shaman -- end game raids don't take 3+ of them (some take 0, and in those cases raid buffing ensures they will take at least 1 or 2 now). And Restoration Shaman have so many reasons a raid wants them, that have nothing to do with totems, that they are assured raid invites assuming they don't personally suck.

 

Phlis

Just an update on the EO stuff, the crit equations for Hit = 91 or greater are fine, the ones under that are over estimated by a lot. The Hit equations need to be divided into 3 parts, Hit = 83 - 88, Hit = 89-90, and Hit = 91-99. 89 Hit is around where you get to the hit cap with EO up, so the equations change a bit, and after 91, you get into diminishing returns, but the equations that are up there already represent those returns. 89-90 is a plateau of the function, where you start getting into diminshing returns but it doesn't follow the already listed equations. Well, maybe it does, basically the stuff that I posted is wrong, and I'm working on fixing it, but probably won't do it tonight.

 

Miaxi

On a slightly different topic:

What is the deal with the insane mana cost for the new spell ranks? How will we be able to regenerate enough mana for the proposed casting rotations if our mana consume gets tripled like that?

Edit: The thread search doesn't like me. Deleted the duplicate info.

 

Graze

T6+ Enhancement shamans DO scary damage, considering what they do for the others, I've seen'em top fights like Brutallus and Kil'jaeden with numbers going at rogue levels. That plus the buffs they bring? I'm all for Shammys being the ultimate dps boost, but that is just scary.
With 2 enhancement shamans, 1 Elemental and 3 Resto, that's 6 out of 25 people, out of 10 classes to chose from, (wotlk) from one class, a "support" class on top of that, what's left to support?

With the changes to the classes healing trees in mind and the changes to our buffs, I can see these numbers going down to 1 Enhancement, 1 Elemental and 2 restoration shamans, tops. Leaving it at 4 shamans in a raid - a more reasonable number.

I suspect we're getting either a trainable (class wide) passive 30% mana regeneration ability, or an active one (Life Tap'ish). I agree with you fully, the mana cost changes are quite absurd.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Jonny_Monroe

The high mana cost change is hitting all classes, not just shaman. Would it be absurd to tack 30% regen on as a second effect of mana stream totem? Since its raid-wide now, and everyone seems to be getting spirit pushed on them, it could be a good balancing factor against mana costs.

OMNOMNOM.

 

Miaxi

Shaman doesn't get changed to spirit. Only cloth classes are affected by that change because Blizzard doesn't want to make 3 different sets of cloth itemization anymore. Shaman and paladin remain mp5/crit based classes.

 

tufy

I don't think so. I believe we're gonna see effectively doubled stats on global level. If you look at new water ranks, you'll see that they effectively return twice as much mana as level 70 one. Mana cost on spells effectively doubled as well. This means mp5 from unrelenting storm will double (twice as much intellect) and +dmg gained from AP goes up to unbelievable 500 (!!!!) spelldamage at 2 points in mental quickness (we can't get three if we want full Lava Flow).

As for the spell hit, given our talents (3% from precision, 3% from totem), boomkin which seems to become almost a must (3% for raid) + potentially 1% racial from draenei aura, we're at 10% without nature's guidance, which looks like it will be dropped from cookie-cutter dps build. This leaves us at 6% from gear or an unreliable proc.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Miaxi

The lvl 75 vendor water restores 12960 mana. Unless conjured strudel goes higher, that is not double of 7200.

I am glad that spell hit finally got added to improved faerie fire. Now the question is just: where the heck did they hide the threat reduction for balance spells this time? It was removed from Subtlety - only affects restoration spells - but where did it go?

 

sjogren

It's on Nature's Reach.

 

Miaxi

Ah, thanks.

 

Graze

Source? I'm just being somewhat logical here, they got upped mana cost, so did we, however they got somewhat vastly increased regen - what happened to shamans? Did we get left behind - again?

Our mana regeneration might be tied to something else, int perhaps? But then what's Unrelenting Storm doing there? What about restoration? If taking Elemental Focus is the absolutely only way, critt rating has to go over the top - but we all know that's not a good way of achieving good dps.

Remember we're still gonna see reduced returns from shadow priests, almost tripple mana cost on spells and spell haste, we all know what haste does to our mana. I suspect a somewhat amount of mp5 is going to be forced on us, it's an expensive stat and I believe that if nothing is done about our regeneration, we're gonna have quiet some trouble.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Torgol

This is purely speculation / my opinion, but it seems to me that in light of the trend towards gear and stat consolidation, the most logical thing for Blizzard to do would be to get rid of mp5 entirely and simply rework spirit so that you automatically get 1/3 of your out of combat mana regen functional in combat. Get rid of the talents that provide the same benefit, just make it a passive feature of all mana using classes.

It has always seemed strange to me that we have two different stats that are both intended to provide mana regen, but one of them is only useful to two classes, and even then only if they have a particular talent. And for the Druids and Priests that have those talents, trying to pick between varying amounts of mp5 or spirit and figure out which one will give better regen is needlessly complicated. Simple solution: dump the redundant mp5 stat entirely and make spirit function the way it always should have, increasing our regen both in combat and out.

That's kind of a side issue from the mana cost increases, though. Clearly there must be something going on with the basic mechanics that we're not aware of (I seem to be getting that feeling from a lot of the talent / ability changes I'm seeing). . . at least I hope there is. Otherwise it's going to be extremely difficult to maintain a rotation incorporating FS, LavB, CL, and LB for any length of time.

 

Paladia

Something is a miss for Shamans at least.

Lightning Bolt (Rank 12): 300 mana, 563 to 643 Nature damage. (pre wotlk)
Lightning Bolt (Rank 13): 555 mana, 595 to 679 nature damage.

Frostbolt rank 14: 345 Mana, 630 to 680 Frost damage (pre wotlk)
Frostbolt rank 15: 445 mana, 702 to 758 frost damage.

Lesser Healing Wave (Rank 7), 440 mana, 1039 to 1185. healing.(pre wotlk)
Lesser Healing Wave (Rank 8): 805 mana, 1382 to 1578 healing.

Flash Heal (Rank 9), 470 mana, 1101 to 1279 healing. (pre wotlk)
Flash Heal (Rank 10): 640 mana, 1684 to 1956 healing.

For Shamans, the mana cost has greatly increased, especially considering these two cloth classes got an added benefit from spirit. Yet while the mana cost has increased much more than for those classes, the efficiency of the spell has decreased in comparison, so something is definitely wrong.

 

Phlis

It probably has to do with spell damage and healing being combined. Going up 1 rank in Wotlk for shaman is a 55% increase for Flame Shock, Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Going to max rank is only a 25% increase, so it's really that first jump that hurts. But if you think about it, if they're combining Healing and Spell damage gear, what stats are we likely to see? Int, Crit, Spell Power, Haste and MP5. I just assume we're going to see a lot more mp5 on gear then we currently have, which should balance out the increased spell cost a bit.