Jakuniku

I'm at work right now, but one thing that might be interesting to test is to see if elemental oath stacks if you have more than one elemental shammy in a group.

 

Paladia

Good find.

What is the scaling on Thunderstorm (spell power coeff)?

On a side note, it seems Blizzard are considering some other effect than extra spell damage for flame tongue. Something like an extra damage proc or alike (more akin to windfury but for spells) would , in my opinion, be much more fun than just some extra points of spell damage.

WoW Forums -> Flametongue Weapon

 

tufy

No idea, but it has to be quite a bit, tbh. I had 3.5k crit with no Ele. Oath, 52/9/0 build on one of the Vrykhul pirates in Borean Tundra (level 69, I think). More testing on that will be required. Also, I found it really insanely good for soloing, a combination of that + Frost Shock = "hard" mob dead before he reaches you :p

Oh, one more thing - Flametongue Totem seems to be bugged right now, only giving 25 +dmg even on highest rank.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Tana Umaga

Is this supposed to be intended? Or will it be reversed sometime soon? If this passes through beta to live servers, is a good amount of damage on crits (which are supposed to be shaman's terrain). And 18% damage increase on other casters crits is desirable enough (besides 6% mana discount) to be wanted in any raid environment.

 

Graze

We don't know, but that's how CSD works on live, perhaps it's intended.

Does the LB coef. testing going nicely? 4k critts huh? That's... what we did a few patches ago unbuffed...

Edit guess that means it's .89 then, should be nerfed soon enough. I wouldn't mind if they removed the band-aid and buffed our talents a little. Does Lightning Mastery ring a bell to anyone?

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Daidalos

OK this is my data so far.

With a bunch of dead boars and a little time I got the following.

Only hits are listed. If I crit I waited till ele oath was gone before casting again.

Spell power: 1232
I'm wearing resto gear to eliminate accidentally using relics or set bonuses that might I overlook that would boost ele dmg.

lvl 70 LB12 low end	lvl 70 LB12 high end
570.48	651.43

cast time	decimal value
2.5/3.5	0.714
(2.5/3.5)+.08	0.794
(2.5/3.5)+.10	0.814

5/5 concussion 0/3 paralysis

Hit dmg amt	Low coef	High coef	MAX	MIN
1524	0.715	0.649	0.715	0.649
1535	0.724	0.658	0.724	0.658
1542	0.729	0.663	0.729	0.663
1544	0.731	0.665	0.731	0.665
1545	0.731	0.666	0.731	0.666
1547	0.733	0.667	0.733	0.667
1547	0.733	0.667	0.733	0.667
1548	0.734	0.668	0.734	0.668
1548	0.734	0.668	0.734	0.668
1549	0.734	0.669	0.734	0.669
1557	0.741	0.675	0.741	0.675
1558	0.741	0.676	0.741	0.676
1564	0.746	0.680	0.746	0.680
1564	0.746	0.680	0.746	0.680
1564	0.746	0.680	0.746	0.680
1566	0.748	0.682	0.748	0.682
1566	0.748	0.682	0.748	0.682
1567	0.748	0.683	0.748	0.683
1573	0.753	0.687	0.753	0.687
1574	0.754	0.688	0.754	0.688
1581	0.759	0.693	0.759	0.693
1582	0.760	0.694	0.760	0.694
1585	0.762	0.697	0.762	0.697
1587	0.764	0.698	0.764	0.698
1588	0.765	0.699	0.765	0.699
1590	0.766	0.700	0.766	0.700
1592	0.768	0.702	0.768	0.702
1592	0.768	0.702	0.768	0.702
1592	0.768	0.702	0.768	0.702
1595	0.770	0.704	0.770	0.704
1595	0.770	0.704	0.770	0.704
1597	0.771	0.706	0.771	0.706
1600	0.774	0.708	0.774	0.708
1602	0.775	0.710	0.775	0.710
1603	0.776	0.710	0.776	0.710

(I sorted the hit amounts for ease of reading)


5/5 concussion 3/3 paralysis

Hit dmg amt	Low coef	High coef	MAX	MIN
1621	0.790	0.724	0.790	0.724
1622	0.791	0.725	0.791	0.725
1623	0.792	0.726	0.792	0.726
1623	0.792	0.726	0.792	0.726
1628	0.795	0.730	0.795	0.730
1631	0.798	0.732	0.798	0.732
1634	0.800	0.734	0.800	0.734
1640	0.805	0.739	0.805	0.739
1645	0.809	0.743	0.809	0.743
1645	0.809	0.743	0.809	0.743
1648	0.811	0.745	0.811	0.745
1653	0.815	0.749	0.815	0.749
1653	0.815	0.749	0.815	0.749
1656	0.817	0.751	0.817	0.751
1657	0.818	0.752	0.818	0.752
1657	0.818	0.752	0.818	0.752
1657	0.818	0.752	0.818	0.752
1662	0.822	0.756	0.822	0.756
1663	0.823	0.757	0.823	0.757
1663	0.823	0.757	0.823	0.757
1664	0.823	0.758	0.823	0.758
1667	0.826	0.760	0.826	0.760
1671	0.829	0.763	0.829	0.763
1675	0.832	0.766	0.832	0.766
1677	0.833	0.768	0.833	0.768
1679	0.835	0.769	0.835	0.769
1680	0.836	0.770	0.836	0.770
1681	0.836	0.771	0.836	0.771
1682	0.837	0.771	0.837	0.771
1686	0.840	0.775	0.840	0.775
1688	0.842	0.776	0.842	0.776
1691	0.844	0.778	0.844	0.778
1694	0.846	0.781	0.846	0.781
1694	0.846	0.781	0.846	0.781
1696	0.848	0.782	0.848	0.782

This pretty much concludes that the coef is .71 without paralysis. I'm guessing my sample size was insufficient to to be entirely sure for my paralysis tests but I think its safe to assume .78 <coef< .79.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Phlis

Well, my spell book lists LB at 628-717 with concussion. Dividing those by 1.05 because of T6, I end up at 598-683, divide by 1.05 again and you end up with 569, going the other way, LB starts at 563 minimum, and I believe gains 4% damage per level over it's initial(563 * 1.004 * 1.004 * 1.004 = 569.78). So, just going over your lowest values:

1524 = (569.78 + 1232*x) * 1.05, x = 0.7156

or

1524 = (569.78 + 1232*0.71) * x, x = 1.055

So, maybe you were using concussion wrong in your calcultations, or just the wrong base value of Lightning Bolt.

 

Daidalos

I already fixed it before you posted but yes you are right.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Phlis

Heh, well, it was about the same time.

Where are you putting paralysis in btw?

Damage = (Base + Spell * (Coef + Para)) * Concussion

or

Damage = (Base + Spell * Coef * Para) * Concussion?


Edit: Going off your second data, I believe the second equation is correct, and you didn't get a suffiecent Low end for the equation to work out, what it's doing is multiplying 0.71 * 1.1 = 0.781, which matches your high end calculations correctly.

 

Daidalos

Yeah you posted about a min after I did. I was still editing a few typos which is why the timestamp shows it after. I was assuming it was .71+10 but looking at the data it appears to be .71*1.1

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Phlis

So I guess the question is, is this a bug or not? It seems that we're actually losing spell damage in WotLK, if I recall correctly in patch 2.3 our coefficient was changed to 0.794, and so with paralysis should be at 0.8737. Someone who can, please post on the Beta Forums about this, see if we can get an answer as to whether this is a Bug, Miscommunication, or intended change.

 

Jakuniku

I posted on the US beta forums. Here's a link to the post. Let me know if I got any details wrong.

 

tufy

EDIT: ignore this post. Lack of coffee :p

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Phlis

You should probably link to this thread as well:
WoW Forums -> Elemental Shaman: Please Read

The specific Blue post which says they're increasing the coefficient of both Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt, just as, well evidence I guess.

 

Lucitron

Since there is a few more folks with beta, might I suggest some testing to confirm or debunk various rumours that floats around? I'm currently thinking of Lava Burst's tooltip versus its inability to consume another Shaman's Flame Shock, and the WWI note about raid wide totems versus that it is not mentioned in the beta-notes, while raid-wide Paladin auras are there.

At 7:45, offices are empty. Some could get bored, but I stay calm, I know how to adapt. While waiting for them I have time to take a coffee.

 

Graze

From what I've heard they've only fixed Mana Spring and Healing Stream to be raid wide yet, I'm sure there's more to come.
There's also some rumours about a 9% hit cap?

And well, I also thought Paralysis would work 0.71 + 0.1. If it's only .71 * 1.1 that's actually less (.781) than what we have now.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Torgol

It seems rather odd that the increased coefficient on Paralysis would be multiplicative. I don't know a ton about mage mechanics, but I was always under the impression that talents like Empowered Fireball worked additively. One would think that Paralysis should work the same, since the wording is similar. I wouldn't even be that bothered if they were planning to remove the bandaid coefficient and intended for Paralysis to bring us back up to around the same level. But if that's the intention, it should actually do it, rather than leaving us slightly worse off than we were before.

 

Daidalos

It does seem odd. Perhaps it is additive and the amounts do not match the talent. It might be only giving +8 instead of +10. Really hard to know sure. Hopefully a dev will clarify.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Darian_TruBlade

The phrasing is "gains an additional X% of your bonus spell damage effects". Such effects aren't additive, they multiply the effective amount of spell damage/power involved.

Empowered Fireball might be different, as it has different wording.

 

Graze

I don't see how it's different, it should add it like 0.71 + 0.10

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

erragal

Fireball and Starfire both have 1.00 base coefficients. It's not actually additive for them, it just looks like that because you're multiplying by one.

Wrath is a better example, and it works exactly like lightning bolt seems to be.


You could figure this out just by doing it the long way: Multiple your bonus spell damage by 1.10 and then plug it into the known coefficient. That's what the talent even says that it does, it's just short hand to multiply them together and save time.

 

Graze

Then they should drop the word "additional" as it's clearly not what it does.

The Wowhead wording is as follows:
X * (2.5/3.5) + (X * 0.10)
Which is about the same as
X * (2.5/3.5 + .1)
And not
X * 2.5/3.5 * 1.1

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

erragal

That is what it does. You're looking at the talent wrong.

Take 1300 spell damage. For Fireball, you multiple it by 1.15

You have 1495 spell damage, that is applied to the fireball spell. That's an increase of 195 spell damage, or an additional 15% of your spell damage that is applied to the fireball spell.

The new coefficient is just shorthand for applying the talent in this way.


You'd understand it better if you stopped trying to think in terms of 'additional' coefficient, and think in terms of additional spell damage.

 

Roywyn

All "empowered" type talents in game are additive.
Empowered Frostbolt is 10% to 81% = 91%. Empowered Wrath is 10% to 71% = 81%.
They are all additive, not multiplicative, with no different wording.

The only thing that ever was multiplicative was the spell damage tax for mages (a *0.9 multiplier after empowered talents was applied additively).
The Lightning Bolt Paralysis is the only one that's acting different. Try to get it reported/unbugged.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Miaxi

For what it's worth, I made a bug report about it, too.