Lucitron

Yep, both Treylah and Torgol tried to talk some sense into me earlier regarding this, but I'm a bit thick sometimes.

Now, personally I'm happy that you brought up the Paladins, since I think Blizzard did a really good job here. I would actually say it is probably the most well designed class of them all now (except I find them a bit boring to play). It was a good move to remove BoSalvation, since that reduce their "must be in raid" status. Still, you want at least one, so it can give BoMight to melee and BoWisdom to casters. However, a second Paladin would be even better so it could give BoKings to all and everyone. The third Paladin would also be welcomed, since it would be able to fill out with BoWisdom to the hybrids that want all three blessings.

I have to agree that there is no huge need for a third Paladin, since there are not that many classes and talent specs that want all three blessings, but out of 30 talent trees I wager 6 want all 3 blessings. Well, regardless I think stand partly corrected. I remove my plea for an entire new additional set of caster totems, and say that I'll settle with that it would at least be nice with just one additional totem that allowed the three Shaman specs to be set apart a bit more, ok?


______________________

Addendum:
(decided to reply to the post below in here)

This has been mentioned earlier and yes this is true that the moment you have a fight where you need to spread out, then it is good to have one additional bunch of totems. However, my experience so far is that the fights where you spread out in three groups or more are relative few. Mostly it is just two groups, melee and ranged. The fights where you spread out more than that, then you generally spread out so much that 3 Shamans can't cover the entire raid.

Well, I've sort of convinced myself that Blizzard might be aiming for 2½ buffs per class, and that it is petty behaviour to ask for more than what all others get. Still, I would like a few more changes before I'm happy.

At 7:45, offices are empty. Some could get bored, but I stay calm, I know how to adapt. While waiting for them I have time to take a coffee.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Currently you don't need a third set of useful totems because having two sets of identical caster/healer totems can be extremely useful on a number of fights, even with the range buff.

On fights like Gruul it's nice to be able to spread out without worrying about losing totem/aura range. It's a little much to ask your 7 healers and 5-7 caster DPS to all cram into a 30 yard area, particularly when encircling a boss is ideal.

It does get somewhat redundant on fights where cramming is actually ideal or feasible. That's roughly half of all BC fights I've experienced. However, Paladins have similar issues. The third Paladin is somewhat redundant as only half of all class/specs can make good use of a third blessing. This is probably intentional design, aimed to make the 2.5 average per class per raid. If a third set of totems/blessings were as powerful as the first two, it would be hard to avoid always having three Paladins/Shaman.

 

Orlgin

I understand that for some fights that melee range isn't feasible. However, there are some fights where it could be useful.

I was just pointing out that in a melee group, you could maximize DPS by getting the AP buffs to buff your spellpower and take advantage of all your instant casts to get melee swings in. For example, if you shock and drop two totems, you have 3.6-3.8 seconds (depending on lag) to get melee swings. If your damage output makes it worth the trouble, it may be a good idea.

Intellect scaling is useful. Compare Tier 4 quality items with those now available. You're thinking of one piece of armor instead of looking at your whole set. How many wearable items do you have that have Int? Cyclone Faceguard has 31 int while Cowl of Gul'dan has 43 Int. That's just one piece of armor and you gained just shy of 4 spell damage. Expect about a 1-3% increase in damage due to this scaling depending on how the game designers want stat inflation to continue.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Totems are dropped only once every 2 minutes, that isn't a very good window of opportunity. Also, consider that the people who'll want your totems are casters, and it's likely they'd prefer you to take a few steps away from the boss so that they don't have to move inward to benefit.

That leaves shocks. In order for this idea to work the damage from a shock plus whatever melee hits you get in needs to be greater than what you'd accomplish from continuing a casting rotation.

Earth Shock, the obvious candidate for at least half of these, has a 42.9% coefficient versus Lightning Bolt's 71.4%. Additionally, Earth Shock doesn't benefit from the 5% crit from Call of Thunder or Lightning Overload. Assuming an Elemental Shaman with 1500 SP, 30% Base Crit and Hit Capped we get the following equation.

((765 + 1500 * .714) * 1.10 * 1.35) * 1.5/2 = (874 + 1500 * .429) * 1.3 + X
2044.8 = 1972.8 + X
X = 72

So on average you need to do 72 damage to break even. That's not a lot. If we assume that Crit/Hit will balance out glancing blows/armor mitigation you only need to do 48 DPS to break even. With possibilities of 3000 AP raid buffed, your damage might be more around 250 DPS. By your reasoning that could be 62.5 DPS.

However, there are a few things to remember.

1) This only applies on fights where you can safely stay within melee range without causing duress. If we look at Karazhan, there are two fights where staying in Melee is no issue, three where it's iffy, and the rest where it's outright troublesome.
2) This additional DPS doesn't have threat reduction, and to obtain it you have to lower your threat cap by 20%.
3) Doing so also makes it harder for other casters to benefit from your totems.
4) The DPS doesn't scale very well. You will get more Crit as time goes one, and some AP from Intellect, but it will very quickly fall behind the damage of simply casting Lightning Bolt (around 3000 SP they break even).
5) The replacement for Paralysis, the other potential changes to deep Elemental and Shaman Glyphs could completely invalidate this train of thought.
6) This all hinges on being able to get a melee hit in the 1.5 seconds you spent Shocking, which may not be possible.

Even without future changes, I find it highly unlikely that the benefits outweigh the substantial detriments.

 

Gurth999

Actually if you're going 43/28 taking spirit weapons wouldn't be much of a problem (there's quite a bit of filler in that build, just drop toughness or anticipation or something) so you could have 30% threat reduction (I think that's the value currently on test) on your melee.

<edit> I should add I mostly agree that I don't see elemental shaman meleeing, but I could see all that AP getting some use in the odd encounter if not 25 man raids.

 

anyakaschala

Just a couple of notes to add here, granted I haven't done a whole lot of actual running the numbers theorycrafting, but the duel wield aspect, using FT, will really depend on how good the shields are. I'd guess the endgame shields will be as good if not better than FT, because as of now that I know of, there are no offhand spell damage weapons.

I'm also of the agreement that as of now, Boomkins seem to have a better raid utility package than elemental as there doesn't seem to be enough of a benefit from 1 totem. As a raider, right now looking towards WotLK, I'd rather take 2 or 3 resto, 1 enhance, and a boomkin, than 2 or 3 resto, 1 enhance, and 1 elemental.

Right now in SW we go with 3 resto's (with me respeccing resto as necessary, esp on kalecgos) and 1 enhance, or 2 resto, 1 ele (me), and 1 enh.,

And granted I do love the deep talents in elemental for pvp. I think they will be a powerhouse in arena from shocks, stuns, and thunder. I'm really looking forward to it.

 

Ocyr

Elemental Shaman don't have any stuns, unless there has been a beta patch release I am unaware of.

All the stuns were removed several weeks ago.

 

anyakaschala

pfft, didn't realize the fire nova totem change to 100% reduced movement,.... weak.
Regardless though, I doo feel with the changes we have a lot of mechanics available to get people away from us so we can burn them down extremely fast.

But then, as shown, this is beta and subject to change as a moments notice.

 

• Juice

Improved Fire Totems (Elemental) is now (again) Improved Fire Nova Totem. It now has a 50/100% chance to stun all targets for 2 sec.


Source: WoW Forums -> Wrath of the Lich King: Beta Patch Notes08/01

 

ChaguraED

Edit : Was old news, sorry.

 

Bayon

The Eye of the Storm change from being an on crit to a passive 70% resist chance is a huge change for elemental pvp shaman. Plus, Paralysis is gone and now replaced with Lava Flows which increases the flametongue bonus damage by 60% and the critical strike bonus of lava burst by 24%.

 

ChaguraED

Elemental Shields is 3 points for 6% reduction on all physical damage.

 

Phlis

Useful glyphs from MMO-champion:
Glyph - Flame Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the range on your Flame Shock ability by 10 yards.
Glyph - Flametongue Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases spell critical strike chance by 2% while Flametongue Weapon is active.
Glyph - Totem of Wrath 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Totem of Wrath also grants 1% spell haste.
Glyph - Lightning Bolt 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the cost of your Lightning Bolt ability by -10%

Of these, with the Change to SE&F I think the most important ones are Flame Shock, and Totem of Wrath. Third would be Flametonue Weapon, as a personal Bonus, and lastly the Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning(Increases bounces by 1) Glyphs

Also, in the new build they put Lava Flows in, and it increases spell damage from flametongue weapon by 60%(from 73 to 117), and the critical strike bonus of Lava Burst by 24%(It goes 6-12-24, so maybe it's supposed to be 18%?).

Edit: Didn't even notice the SE&F Change. They moved paralysis down and increased it to 25% coeffiect bonus, as part of SE&F on top of the 100% FS damage. So, just quick math here, 2.5/3.5 * 1.25 = 1.893, which is good. If we're looking at a bonus of 900 spell damage from MD+MQ then this evens out at over 3500 spell damage(0.893X=0.714(X+900), X = 3586). Not taking any other talents or raid buffs into account MD+MQ still seems better.

Though, Lava Flows is impressive. If it works like Elemental Oath and CSD, it should give 0.72 Crit Bonus, stack that with the 0.27 from CSD and EO and you're at 299% Crit Damage for lava burst which, at 0 spell damage would be a 3360 damage spell, and at 1500 spell damage, it's 6214(776.7 DPS). I would like to see if that pans out in live testing.

 

Vaeys

Totem of Wrath is now +6% spell damage and +3% spell crit chance to all party & raid members. (max rank flametongue gained at level 67 so far looks to be +73 spell damage/healing by comparison)

 

Medicine Man

The new Storm, Earth, and Fire talent is granting a 25% spell damage bonus on lightning bolt with 5 points invested.

 

Miaxi

New Eye of the Storm:
Gives you 70% chance to avoid interruption while casting Lightning Bold, chain Lightning, Lava Burst and Hex spells.

This alone will be a huge DPS boost in any fight with casting pushback.

Oh, and friendly totems now have default 30 yard range. The talent in the restoration tree was replaced. A good change.

 

Kaideq

I would really like to know how the inscription thing will work out, it would be very sad if you had different must haves for pvp and pve so even with the new duo spec thing you'd need to re-in script for pvp.
All in all, the changes seem ok, I just really dislike lava flows.

The idea of FT being just a tad better than an oil with the use of talent points just seems a little meh to me.

The change of EOTS makes me wonder what the new set bonus on the arena set will be and zomg LVL'ing in pve gear !!!!!! iso 4 brutal ;D

Starchild Spacegoat Shaman in Beta

 

Noobshock

The Elemental rework is amazing. If half the changes in 8770 make it into live, im gonna have to get new pants.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman=

Big boost to TOW utility.
Pushback prevention.
Crit dmg boost on LaB.
More scaling for Lightning Bolt.

I don't even know what to complain about on Beta Shaman forums anymore.

 

Wildwary

So, the changes to PvE elemental can be summed up:

* Totem of Wrath changed to 6% dmg bonus to spells and 3% spellcrit. (hit removed)
* Paralysis replaced with Lava Flows, 60% additional spelldmg from flametounge and 18(?)% bonus dmg to Lava Burst crits
*Storm, Earth and Fire changed to 25% extra Lightning bolt spelldamage, frost shock effect removed.
*Convection is now 5 points (?)

I think all theese changes makes a full elemental/resto build look much more competetive again. Damage is increased, lava burst seems more viable used together with flameshock at 30 yards. Also, this build is better mana wise for obvious reasons.

For now, this will probably be my spec for PvE/Allround play. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...00000000000000

 

Phlis

So, Serious Business questions:

What is Lava Burst's Crit damage increase with Lava Flows, CSD and 3 Stack of Elemental Oath?

How does the New Storm Earth and Fire Work? Is it a straight Coefficient Increase or, the way it's worded, does it increase damage by 25% of spell damage? Ie with X spell damage how much damage is LB doing now?

This is probably the PvE Deep Elemental Build:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...00000000000000

 

Malan

I'll have to test this but as of right now the tooltips have not been updated to reflect this change. It may not have made it into this build.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• frmorrison

The new Earth, Storm, and Fire appears to be a flat increase of 25% of your current spell power added to LB, so no coefficient change


52/0/19 seems like the PvE build to get.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Daidalos

You know multiplication is associative and commutative so its mathematically the same as a modification to the coef?


(2.5/3.5) * (1000 * 1.25) =892
is the same as
((2.5/3.5) *1.25) *1000 = 892

AS far as calculations goes the old LB coef was approx .714 and the new .893

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Phlis

Well, if thats what numbers show, cool. However, I was wondering if it worked a different way, more like this:

(1000 * 2.5/3.5) + (1000 * 0.25)

Which, with the way the talent was worded, was a possibility in my mind. If you have some numbers, just LB hits, I'd like to see them.

edit:

yes, now that I look at it I realize that simplifies to 1000 * (2.5/3.5 + 0.25), which is 0.964, a bit higher then 0.893, but in essence a coefficient change. I'd still like to see numbers though.

 

Illundai

Wrath of Air is only 5% spellhaste now. Is that new in this build?

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5...8061650zr5.jpg