Obviously, math and testing still have yet to be done, but the changes to the talent tree overall seem to go a long way towards making a full elemental build viable again, and preferable over the MD/MQ build.
I'm most curious about which glyphs are major, which minor, and which lesser. Has anyone seen how these have been defined? If I were to guess/hope/pray, this would be how they'd be divided and which we'd choose for a PVE build:
Major #1: Glyph - Flametongue Weapon 01 Increases spell critical strike chance by 2% while Flametongue Weapon is active. Obviously, a sweet personal DPS boost.
Major #2: Glyph - Flame Shock 01 Increases the range on your Flame Shock ability by 10 yards. Makes FS viable in our cast rotation; 30 yards is less than ideal but many many elemental shamans are already used to raiding at this range (personally I always nag my raid leader for a shadow priest so I could drop points from Unrelenting Storm to put into Storm's Reach, but that's just me).
Lesser #1: Glyph - Totem of Wrath - Your Totem of Wrath also grants 1% spell haste. Makes up ever so slightly for the Wrath of Air nerf, and thus ups our raid desirability. A ToW that grants 6% damage, 3% crit, and 1% haste? Hot.
Lesser #2: Glyph - Chain Lightning 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Chain Lightning strikes 1 additional target. Probably unlikely to be a lesser glyph, but I'm not sure if that means we'd have to choose between this and one of those above, or if one of the ones I guessed to be major is actually a lesser.
Minor #1: Glyph - Water Shield 01 - Your Water Shield has 3 additional charges. Meh. Doesn't blow me away, but a Minor glyph probably shouldn't.
Minor #2: Glyph - Lightning Bolt 01 - Reduces the cost of your Lightning Bolt ability by -10%. I guess this, combined with the glyph above, may go some way towards mitigating OoM issues...
Overall, I'm eager to see the way this all plays out in testing and I'm cautiously optimistic about the state of raiding elemental shamans and what we will be able to bring to raids and parties.
These all look like greater and major glyphs, not minor glyphs(which are supposed to be only cosmetic changes, like polymorph: penguin). The Best four, PVE wise, are obviously Totem of Wrath, Flametongue, Flameshock and Lightning bolt, probably in that order as well. If we can only have two of those four, I'd go with ToW and Flametongue and just shock from 20yds, probably. If We can have 3, or all 4 of those, then thats awesome. Chain lightning and Water shield and underwhelming, and seem situational at best to me, I doubt I'd ever take those.
Well, if thats what numbers show, cool. However, I was wondering if it worked a different way, more like this:
(1000 * 2.5/3.5) + (1000 * 0.25)
Which, with the way the talent was worded, was a possibility in my mind. If you have some numbers, just LB hits, I'd like to see them.
edit:
yes, now that I look at it I realize that simplifies to 1000 * (2.5/3.5 + 0.25), which is 0.964, a bit higher then 0.893, but in essence a coefficient change. I'd still like to see numbers though.
Some quick numbers from in game testing. I took off 4pct6 switched to a healing relic and used no totems.
Spell power 1347
LB low end
LB high end
594.29
679.05
possible coefs
decimal coef
2.5/3.5
0.714
(2.5/3.5)+.08
0.794
(2.5/3.5)+.10
0.814
(2.5/3.5)*1.25
0.893
Hit
Low coef
High coef
MAX
MIN
1887
0.893
0.830
0.893
0.830
1918
0.915
0.852
0.915
0.852
1931
0.924
0.861
0.924
0.861
1932
0.925
0.862
0.925
0.862
1932
0.925
0.862
0.925
0.862
1934
0.926
0.863
0.926
0.863
1937
0.928
0.865
0.928
0.865
1940
0.930
0.868
0.930
0.868
1959
0.944
0.881
0.944
0.881
1962
0.946
0.883
0.946
0.883
1964
0.947
0.885
0.947
0.885
1964
0.947
0.885
0.947
0.885
1970
0.952
0.889
0.952
0.889
1972
0.953
0.890
0.953
0.890
1973
0.954
0.891
0.954
0.891
1975
0.955
0.892
0.955
0.892
As you can see even from my small sample data its pretty much confirms the .893 coef.
People on the beta forums are saying Lava Burst isn't working with Elemental Fury? What do hit/Crit numbers with Lava Flows look like?
Edit:
Something else, which I don't think has come up in this thread, which would be good to test:
If You Flame Shock, wait 6 Seconds, Lava Burst and then Flame Shock, what happens? Will the new Lava Burst consume the 2nd Shock?
I'm wondering specifically for rotations, If Lava Burst consumes the second shock, then it would be best to save chain lightning until after Lava Bursts before Flame Shocking again, ie FS, LBx3 LvB, CL, with more LBs at higher levels of haste(over 10% is 4 LBs for example).
It's not. And Elemental Oath still drains more mana rather than reducing it.
Yeah lava burst is still bugged as it elemental oath. Does anyone else find it ironic that after like 2 years for asking for a pushback prevention talent they finally give it to us but also nerf spell pushbacks in the same build? It certainly marginalizes its importance but I could see people picking it up for pvp but its not with it soloing imo.
16% haste for melee only works on white hits (and those specials that are bound to white hits), though.
I understand however hitting more also increases rage and if the rogue is combat it also increases energy. Just seems slightly disproportionate that's all. Although I guess other melee doesn't get that type of benefit as far as I know. I am unsure what each class typical white/yellow/spell dmg break down is.
If I remember correctly a typical enh shaman will be about 50% of dmg from white hits. Assuming you pick up imp wf that's a 20% increase to 50% of the dmg. So even enh shaman who do magic dmg and have no mechanics like rage or energy gain more than 5% benefit from the air totem.
I've been thinking about this for awhile but it still seems like enh shaman give better buffs than ele. The new wrath of air certainly makes it a lot closer now however possibly making it close enough not to complain about. ( i seem to think rogue did about 60% white dmg, enh shaman 50%, no idea about ret pallys, DKs, or fury and arms wars)
enh:
20% melee haste to raid(?) (increase white dmg by 20%. can also increase rage and energy)
88 str and 88 agi
10% more AP
ele:
5% spell haste to raid(?)
3 crit and 6% additional spell dmg to (party? unsure if its raid or party i'll have to check)
elemental oath 6% additional crit dmg
Daidolos: Also, I believe Assassination Rogues have a talent deep in that tree that gives them energy whenever they crit. That would also give them energy through haste.
Daidolos: Also, I believe Assassination Rogues have a talent deep in that tree that gives them energy whenever they crit. That would also give them energy through haste.
Will that be a wotlk raid spec? It seemed for the most part combat the was only raid viable spec in BC
Daidolos: Currently (and I say that advisedly, as Rogues seem to have gotten little polish), Mutilate spec does the most DPS of Rogue specs in Wrath. I'll doublecheck the Rogue thread, though; I've been trying to keep up with it, but it's not as much a priority to me as this thread or the Mage thread.
Will CL still be worthwhile in our DPS rotations considering it does not seem to benefit from SEF?
Also many early posts worked on mathing out a new DPS rotation. I can't seem to find any mention of whether they took the WoA haste into account ( Could just be that I am tired)
I am pretty pleased with this latest talent build, but I can't decide whether TStorm is absolutely needed in a raiding spec. Is 5% Mana every 45 seconds going to make or break our mana efficiency in long fights?
Yeah lava burst is still bugged as it elemental oath. Does anyone else find it ironic that after like 2 years for asking for a pushback prevention talent they finally give it to us but also nerf spell pushbacks in the same build? It certainly marginalizes its importance but I could see people picking it up for pvp but its not with it soloing imo.
Spell pushback is still a worthwhile talent, since the new pushback is two 0.5 second additions per spell. It is better to not have any pushback at all.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Will CL still be worthwhile in our DPS rotations considering it does not seem to benefit from SEF?
A rought estimate, CL will be hitting about 180 dps harder than LB at 2000 spellpower, so it will still be useable, at least until a certain point.
Also many early posts worked on mathing out a new DPS rotation. I can't seem to find any mention of whether they took the WoA haste into account ( Could just be that I am tired)
Most calculations I'm aware of were estimates, because we don't know what the quality of endgame gear will be. Expect more in the near future. I'm working on comparisson spreadsheet and I'm sure Binkie and Co. are on it too
I am pretty pleased with this latest talent build, but I can't decide whether TStorm is absolutely needed in a raiding spec. Is 5% Mana every 45 seconds going to make or break our mana efficiency in long fights?
This question sucks, tbh. Basically, if we go with 51/0/20 (you need 51 to get all boosters, with Thunderstorm it would be 52), you're sacrificing Thunderstorm for basically 1% crit on CL and LB. The rotation we'll use will include at least 2 fire spells, one of which has an assured crit. On the other hand, Thunderstorm gives you 5% mana back, which at 10.000 mana equals 55 mp5. Our mana pools will most likely be around 15k or more (at level 77, I'm at 13k with Sunwell/BT gear), making Thunderstorm compareable to Water Shield mana return, but having a downside of one GCD spent every 45 seconds.
To give you a comparison: using Thunderstorm every 45 seconds, we would regenerate 60% mana in 9 minutes (evocation's cooldown is 8 minutes) and would spend 18 seconds on global cooldowns (slightly more than twice as much as evocating mage).
Final judgement? It all depends on how mana efficient new spell ranks will be in the end and how the encounters will look like.
Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
Overall I think I'm pretty happy. Worthwhile end-tier talents, most excellent Totem of Wrath and Eye of the Storm changes, and glyphs which fix some shortcomings and provide interesting options.
I think my personal wish list is short at this point. Totem of Wrath being a Fire totem and us having no worthwhile Earth totem remains to be the elephant in the room. Not being able to drop Searing/Magma/Nova without losing a buff when Flametongue Totem and Totem of Wrath are so nice doesn't generate much angst any more... but FTT being in direct competition with ToW is silly considering what Enhance and Resto folks bring to the party. It can hardly be a balance issue, as if an Elemental cannot drop ToW and FTT at the same time, they and their allies are going to benefit from both in a raid due to a Resto shaman being around anyway. Simply shifting ToW from Fire to Earth would make me one happy raider.
Other than that, I'd just like to see Flame Shock (or shocks in general?) get up to 36 yard range through Storm Reach, glyphs, or a combo of both.
The talent choice have finally become fun! After sinking 52 points in to Elemental for all the mandatory damage boosts, the options after that are nice. However, I greatly dislike the prospect of having to put an entire 19 points into Restoration for just a ~4% damage boost from Tidal Mastery for a pure raid dps build. 15 of 19 points shouldn't go to "waste". Either there should be more low-tier talents to interest an Elemental shaman in Resto, or the existing low-tier Enhancement talents should be slightly more appealing.
Yeah sadly I wonder if windfury will also be nerfed. It seems 16% haste for melee is a good deal stronger than 5% for casters.
Yeah, but mind you that right now, melee are balanced around a (20% extra attack) and casters are balanced around a 101 spell power Wrath of Air.
The new 20% Windfury and 5% Wrath of Air are comparable in power to the old ones.
They could change them both to 20%/10%/5% or whatever, but would then have to buff/nerf melee/casters to bring them back in line.
So they just keep them roughly like it is now.
How does the new ToW work?
Does it increase your spell power value by 6%, or does it simply multiply all your final damage that spells by 1.06?
Also, does it stack with Flametongue Totem?
One thing people are forgetting is this: what will our spec be if LvB is not a viable elemental spell?
In which case, Lava Flows will be a 2/3 talent (the flametongue bonus is minimal, even if you're missing that 20% bonus) in order to get 5/5 tidal mastery.
I've got some prelim math sitting in googledocs, so now that these changes have gone through I'll try clearing it up a bit, adding haste into the mix, and throwing the old lb/cl rotation into the mix as well. I'm still fairly certain that straight LB spam will be the most practical rotation.
Yeah, but mind you that right now, melee are balanced around a (20% extra attack) and casters are balanced around a 101 spell power Wrath of Air.
The new 20% Windfury and 5% Wrath of Air are comparable in power to the old ones.
They could change them both to 20%/10%/5% or whatever, but would then have to buff/nerf melee/casters to bring them back in line.
So they just keep them roughly like it is now.
How does the new ToW work?
Does it increase your spell power value by 6%, or does it simply multiply all your final damage that spells by 1.06?
Also, does it stack with Flametongue Totem?
I am not disagreeing that WF was far superior to wrath of air in live. What I am saying is that I think ele should bring buffs comparable to enh shaman. I don't think anyone can honestly claim an ele shaman in live brought as much as an enh shaman did. Enh shaman were so good for buffing between WF and UR that they were basically mandatory and many guilds brought more than one.
My goal is for ele shaman to bring buffs in line with what enh shaman bring. The new ToW is a huge step in that direction my only 2 remaning points are that flametongue totem is a fire totem meaning you cannot have both Tow and flametongue down and that wrath of air seems to be noticeably worse than WF.
Currently ToW does not show up in the char stats so I assume its a 1.06 multiplier to spell coefs. I'll gather more data on ToW.
Currently ToW does not show up in the char stats so I assume its a 1.06 multiplier to spell coefs. I'll gather more data on ToW.
I'm reading it as a straight +6% damage multiplier, in which case, it's not Coefficients or +damage being changed as those don't account for the base tooltip damage of the spell. Instead, it's treated more like Concussion thus leading us to:
1.06 * (Talents) * [Base + Spell Power * (Coefficient)]
Under this interpretation, ToW would work as a slightly stronger version of Misery. More importantly, since Misery is a debuff while ToW is a buff, they should stack even with debuff/buff consolidation.
I'm reading it as a straight +6% damage multiplier, in which case, it's not Coefficients or +damage being changed as those don't account for the base tooltip damage of the spell. Instead, it's treated more like Concussion thus leading us to:
1.06 * (Talents) * [Base + Spell Power * (Coefficient)]
Under this interpretation, ToW would work as a slightly stronger version of Misery. More importantly, since Misery is a debuff while ToW is a buff, they should stack even with debuff/buff consolidation.
Seems this is correct.
Spell power 1347
LB low end
LB high end
597.14
682.86
coefs
decimal value
2.5/3.5
0.714
(2.5/3.5)+.08
0.794
(2.5/3.5)+.10
0.814
(2.5/3.5)*1.25
0.893
(2.5/3.5)*1.25*1.06
0.946
Hit
Low coef
High coef
MAX
MIN
2007
0.976
0.912
0.976
0.912
2007
0.976
0.912
0.976
0.912
2010
0.978
0.914
0.978
0.914
2015
0.981
0.918
0.981
0.918
2021
0.986
0.922
0.986
0.922
2025
0.988
0.925
0.988
0.925
2032
0.993
0.930
0.993
0.930
2043
1.001
0.938
1.001
0.938
2051
1.007
0.943
1.007
0.943
2060
1.013
0.950
1.013
0.950
2070
1.020
0.957
1.020
0.957
2077
1.025
0.962
1.025
0.962
2079
1.027
0.963
1.027
0.963
2083
1.029
0.966
1.029
0.966
2085
1.031
0.967
1.031
0.967
2090
1.034
0.971
1.034
0.971
Hit
Low coef
High coef
MAX
MIN
1893.4
0.895
0.832
0.895
0.832
1893.4
0.895
0.832
0.895
0.832
1896.23
0.897
0.834
0.897
0.834
1900.94
0.901
0.837
0.901
0.837
1906.6
0.905
0.841
0.905
0.841
1910.38
0.907
0.844
0.907
0.844
1916.98
0.912
0.848
0.912
0.848
1927.36
0.919
0.856
0.919
0.856
1934.91
0.925
0.861
0.925
0.861
1943.4
0.931
0.867
0.931
0.867
1952.83
0.937
0.874
0.937
0.874
1959.43
0.942
0.878
0.942
0.878
1961.32
0.943
0.880
0.943
0.880
1965.09
0.946
0.882
0.946
0.882
1966.98
0.947
0.884
0.947
0.884
1971.7
0.951
0.887
0.951
0.887
Basically what I did was I first tested to see if it was a coef change and looked at the resulting coefs of the data.
In the second set I used the same input data but div by 1.06 the solved for the coef again to see it would match back up with the expected LB coef. You can see it does nicely. ToW acts like concussion and is applied to both base and additional spell power.
08/09/08, 2:12 AM
