ofancow

With the new Storm Earth and Fire only affecting Lightning Bolts, and no other primary DD spells (Chain Lightning and Lava Burst), I am thinking that 43/28 is still going to be the highest DPS raid build (eg. in a setting with most or all possible buffs) until extremely high levels of gear (based on the calculations done earlier in this thread, it is reasonable to expect at least 600 spell power bonus from MD/MQ when in a full 25-man raid setting, which equates to approximately 2400 spell power from gearing before the new SE&F talent crosses over -- however that is just for Lightning Bolt spam, and the highest DPS rotations seem to involve FlS, LaB and CL in addition to LB ... several factors such as mana consumption, the practicability of spamming CL and LaB every CD, et cetera may change the final verdict of course).

That said, deep Elemental builds (51+) just got a whole lot more viable for 10-mans, 5-mans, solo and PvP.

I am sort of pleased that the MD/MQ build didn't get nerfed -- it might be nice having more than 1 viable spec.

 

Gdmanyak

I think classical 20 in resto are still good\will be good so i see build like
51\0\20
ANd rotation smth like FlS\LB\LB\CL\LaB. I think about having Glyph of flame shock and fight at 30 yards range.
Will help keep elemntal oath all the time + elem focus . I don't think Ele shamys ll have mana issues in WoTLK.

P.s. probably for fight where spellpushback in needed we can change Elem warding with EoS.

 

Anksunamun

5% spell haste to raid is a basic buff, every shaman can bring it
instead every elemental shaman will bring

+3% crit and +6% increased effect or damage to ALL spells, this means offensive and healing spells
an additional +1% spell haste to our tow ( new glyph) so WE bring another +1%
EVERY spell will have thier mana cost reduced by 6% (just imagine how many spells will be casted in a 15-20 min in a raid..)
+6% increased critical strike damage, maybe this talent will work also for healing spells.

tow works for RAID members too

 

• Binkenstein

43/28/0 builds didn't get nerfed. They were made obsolete.

wotlkelemental.ods - FileFront.com

OpenOffice spreadsheet containing my prelim math. Looks like a FS/LvB rotation is about 100-300 dps better, depending on spec/stats/etc. Some of it depends on how the glyphs will divide up to determine how close the difference is.

 

ofancow

Ocyr showed the FlS/LaB rotation would be the "best" rotation two dozen pages back. Good to see more confirmation of his work.

That's not downloading for me so quick question -- did your spreadsheet show Lightning Bolt being the only talent to receive a spell damage benefit from Storm Earth & Fire? Because I find it a little hard to believe that your calculations aren't off when you say something like +600 spell power to Lightning Bolt-only makes +600 spell power to every spell "obsolete" (which would be at 2400 spell power base - some people have shown up to 900 spell power is possible fully buffed, making a 51+ Elemental build unable to realistically ever equal a 43/28 build for raiding (3600 base spell power required to break even just with Lightning Bolt, in a 51+ Elemental build).

 

WarTotem

For all the theory crafters: Don't expect a 2/2 Improved Stormstrike in your raids. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft will be the most likely Enh raiding build, as you will be able to cycle the Stormstrike & Shock cooldowns perfectly then. (10% DPS increase from SS & Shock damage compared to now)
I tried making an 8sec SS cycle, but you would lose 25% shock DPS (and casts) in favor of 11% SS DPS if you prioritize Stormstrike (and nothing at all on Shock prio). Considering there are more useful talents that actually give personal benefits, I don't see serious raiding Enh Shamans taking up the second point.

 

Noobshock

Good thing "serious" raiders spec for maximized raid dps, and not max personal, amirite? :P

 

Wildwary

he is right though, a lot of people will choose personal dps over raid dps, at least at the "non bleeding edge" scene

anyways, using SS in any calculations is kinda dangerous, as there are so many things that will eat the charges, like the enhancement shamans natrue damage, hunter pets and moonkins.

 

Phlis

A couple fixes in your spreadsheet:
3/3 call of flame improves FS/LvB by 20ish DPS
In your equation for Crit Bonus to LvB in Lava Flows you have 1+B24*0.02 this should be B24*0.06 at least, maybe an if statement if thats possible in OpenOffice, 1point = 0.06, 2pts=0.12, 3pts=0.24.


Doesn't really change anything FS/LBxN/LvB is just improved over LB, and LB/CL rotations by a ton.

If the ending equation for LvB Crit Damage is 1+((1.5*1.06*1.03*1.24)-1)*2, then LvB gets a 306% crit bonus, and with the numbers on Bink's sheet that works out to 3323 Normal hits and 10173 crits. With these numbers FS/LB/LvB is 528 DPS over LB Spam.

 

• Binkenstein

Call of Flame increases LvB damage by 2/4/6%.
The other half of it is for fire totems.

Please remember these numbers are based on my current gear in beta (ie: the gear I have at the moment on live).

 

Phlis

I ment, on your spreadsheet for download you have 0/3 points in call of flame(Cell B14 is 0, and should be 3), and in Lava Flows you have 0.02 for increasing the crit damage bonus, and it should be 0.06 in the equation you have there, and Cell B24 is 2, and should be 3. If it's based on your current spec and you're not at 80 that's fine, but I'm looking at forecasting at level 80. Those numbers are more informative at least.

Just stuff that increases the gap for FS/LB/LaB

Edit:

Here, this is what I mean:
wotlkelementalfix.ods - FileFront.com

Edit 2:
There are two errors in the above spreadsheet:

 

Aramund

Actually, I'd expect most Enhancement Shamans to realize that they can do that exact same build with 2/2 Imp SS instead of 4/5 Ancestral Knowledge.

So far, is there any reason to add CL back into the rotation? Right now as it is I have issues with keeping up a perfect 4 LB / 1 CL rotation, so I tend to stick with LB spam. I'm thinking of just adding in FlShock and LvB into my rotation and leaving CL for aoe situations as I do now.

 

• Binkenstein

Can't you just change the cells to 3 & 3?
It's not like the spreadsheet is locked or anything, and that was just the spec that I'd plugged in at the time.

 

testthewest

This is clearly wrong, since SS is our best style and should, and will be optimized. Furthermore there is a rotation with a 8 sec SS, found here: Enhancement WotLK Talents and spells discussion.

So without littering up your Elemental thread more:
You will have about 3,5 SS charges every 8 sec.

 

Daidalos

You completely missed my point. My post was not about party vs raid buffs it was casters vs melee.
Melee get
88agi+88str
20% haste (yes I know the difference between white and yellow dmg and its still not comparable)
10% more AP

5% spell haste
casters get 6% more dmg 6% 3 crit
6% additional crit dmg however at the moment this party buff (last I checked) this could change though.


I still don't think we bring quite as strong as buffs to casters as enh do to melee. The biggest difference still seems between WF and wrath of ai. Personally if they just mage flamtongue totem an earth I think we'd be at parity.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Anksunamun

I understood your point daidalos.. but you cannot compare the mechanics between melee and spell ranged attacks because they work in different ways.
We should instead make a comparison between us and a moonkin but we have been buffed enough to be more wanted in raid, that's the important point.

 

Phlis

Yeah, I was pointing it out for everyone else reading, especially the Lava Burst Crit equation thing. It pushes Lava Burst's increased DPS up from 300 to about 600 over LB spam. Also I put in actual comparisons with MD/MQ just so people can see, and also to show that at lower spell damage and haste levels MD+MQ is still better, raid buffed anyway, because of the boost to damage. At the point you have though it's behind by about 100DPS.

 

dedmonwakeen

SimulationCraft updated with latest talent/glyph changes for Druid-Balance, Priest-Holy, Priest-Shadow, Shaman-Elemental, and Shaman-Enhancement.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Melg

"The biggest difference still seems between WF and wrath of ai. Personally if they just mage flamtongue totem an earth I think we'd be at parity."

Wouldn't it make more sense to make Wrath an earth totem?

 

StormGust

The problem with such a change would be, that there won't be a replacement for the elemental shaman then.
And that's not what blizzard is aiming for. (They changed wrath of the air to me more in line with the Moonkin aura i guess)

 

Daidalos

Yes I understand bliz's new interoperable strategy to raid buffs but that also wasn't my point. I assuming enh shaman don't need to be tuned down caster buffs from ele sham and boomkin should be buffed assuming caster and melee do similar dmg. I don't want a repeat of how melee's superior scaling and synergies that lead some guilds to stack melee dps. For this to happen not only do the classes solo dps have to scale well but also so do the raid buffs. If they raid buffs for casters aren't as good as those for melee the gap in dps will only grow. (If anyone has some hard numbers to show that melee scaling isn't superior I'd be happy to see it but posts saying casters are melee are different are pointless)

As for melee vs caster, of course you can you can look at the % of dmg gained and see it isn't quite on par. 20% melee haste is a overall gain of 10% or more for most melee classes (admittedly I know little about DK white vs yellow ratios).

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

ofancow

Your comparison is fundamentally flawed. All Shaman can use SoE, WoA, and WF totems. The real comparison is as follows:

Elemental brings to their party (unique from any other spec Shaman)

Totem of Wrath
6% spell damage bonus
3% spell critical bonus
1% spell haste bonus (Totem of Wrath Glyph)

Elemental Oath
6% bonus to spell critical damage
6% reduction in mana cost to all abilities

Enhancement brings to their party (unique from any other spec Shaman)

Improved Windfury Totem
4% additional melee haste

Unleashed Rage
10% additional attack power

Strength of Earth
Approximately 15 additional Strength (Enhancing Totems)
Approximately 15 additional Agility (Enhancing Totems)
1% additional chance to critically strike with physical attacks (SoE Glyph)

Storm Strike
2/4 charge debuff that increases Nature damage dealt by 20%
Additional 8% damage to the debuff modifier (Storm Strike Glyph)

I don't see anything wrong. If anything, Enhancement DPS is very low compared to Elemental Shaman, and they need the better buffing system to compensate.

 

Anksunamun

well I don't know if it's possible to calculate the perfect amount of buffs that we can bring but we can ofc make some examples.
I’m not so good with math but I can make an example like this.

My basic spell hits for 1000 damage, tow will increase the damage by 6% so my basic spell will hit for 1060. If I crit on a spell, my crit will be 2120 but elemental oath will increase the critical damage by 6% so the new damage will be about 2250.
So we bring +1/8 damage to critical spells and +1/16 to basic spells.
We can assume 33% critical between healers and dps casters? ( I will not consider the 1% left)
+1/8 damage on 33% of the spells and +1/16 on 66% of the spells
Lets consider 100 spells. 33 spells will have about +12% increased damage, 66 spells will have about +6% increased damage

1000 * 66 = 66000. add +6% to 66000 = 3960 + 66000 = 69960 basic damage
2120 * 33 = 69960. add +6% to 69960 = 4197 + 69960 = 74157 critical damage

69960 + 74157 = 144117 it’s the final damage

Let’s assume the same spells with no buffs

1000 * 66 = 66000
2000 * 33 = 66000

66000 + 66000 = 132000 it’s the final damage

Now lets see how we increase the damage of the spells

132000 : 100 = 144117 : x

100 * 144117 = 14417700 / 132000 = 109%

Our buff will increase the damage by 9% of any healing or offensive spell !

There is another factor to consider: the other buff given by Elemental oath. You all know the new potion nerf right? Every caster will be able to drink only 1 mana potion, in every situation. So every raid needs to find a way to low their mana cost or a way to gain more mana from abilities.
Every spell will have his mana cost lowered by 6% so every 100 spells we will provide 6 more spells to every caster.

In this calculation I didn’t consider a +3% to critical spell given by ToW, +1% spell haste given by the new glyph and any resist or partial resist but I think that this calculations should be considered for real

This example is very poor but it can shows to everyone how is important to have an elemental shaman in raid.

Now we need someone who can tell us how many buffs can provide an ench shaman BUT remeber this important thing: there are MORE casters(healers-dps) in raid instead of melee (tank-dps) so pay attention to final results because we are not buffing only dps casters, we are buffing every caster in raid !

 

Ston

There's currently more casters in a raid due to two things. Melee group only buffs, and fight dynamics. That's changing in the expansion with some buffs going raid-wide. You don't have to worry as much with having "full" melee or caster groups, since a large portion of the buffs you're bringing them for will be raid-wide.

What's happening, for the most part, is this gives a raid leader more options available for DPS slots.

Applying current end-game thoughts towards the future end game doesn't work quite right, simply because so many things are changing.

 

Daidalos

It is not what about is unique to enh spec its about buffing melee vs buffing casters. with WF being 20% haste it still seems like the melee buffs are stronger than the caster buffs. If someone can post what overall % increase 10% more AP is for most melee? Then we can do a more thorough breakdown but with elemental oath being group only I think melee has a decided edge.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg