Graze

I've seen claims that 60% of a melee class' damage comes from AP, thus UR is a ~6% damage boost.

I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!

 

Roywyn

For a Glaive Rogue in a full Sunwell kit, Unleashed Rage is 6.5% DPS. (2619 => 2792)

For a Fire Mage in a full Sunwell Kit, Elemental Oath is 3.5% (2872 => 2979). Plus whatever the additional mana gives you.
With Fire getting a better crit multiplier and more crit chance raid buffs/debuffs with Wrath talents, it would be 5% for that Sunwell Kit at 70.
For Frostfire Bolt, it would be nearly a 9% DPS increase from Elemental Oath in that Kit and a guessed level 70 version of the spell.

As for Windfury, it's my opinion that melee is simply balanced with WF in mind while casters are balanced around WoA.
Buff WoA or nerf WF and you simply have to nerf casters or buff melee to roughly even it out again. Regardless whether things are balanced now or not.

Your opinion may vary, I'm quite sure it does.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

tufy

Elemental Oath is not a 6% crit damage increase, it functions the same as double meta gem.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Roywyn

I know, I calculated it exactly that way via Rawr and some excel maths.

With the increase of crit chance raid debuffs in Wrath, you're looking even at 5.5% for Fire and 7.5% for Frostfire DPS.
For Fire Warlocks, it's around 5.5% as well with the current talents.

[Edit]: Fatfingered numbers, added Warlocks. And yes, that's for total DPS.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Phlis

@Spreadsheet guys:

Better equations for crit damage% then what is being used in Bink's spreadsheet right now, but it requires a few changes. CSD bonus needs to be 0.03, and Elemental Oath Crit Damage bonus needs to be 0.06(rather then 1.03 and 1.06).

After that if you use this for the Elemental Fury Crit Bonus(EO is Elemental Oath bonus, EF is elemental Fury points(so 1 or 0):
And then this for Lava Burst Bonus from Lava Flows(LF = Lava Flows):
Just trying to help get good calculation out there for people. These equations work with any number of points in the talents and whether or not you're using a CSD, etc.

 

dedmonwakeen

You need to distinguish between talents/items/abilities that affect "critical strike damage bonus" and those that affect "critical strike damage".

The first are multipliers on the 50% base crit bonus.
The second are multipliers on the 150% base non-crit plus vanilla crit bonus.

For the purposes of writing a simulator/calculator/spreadsheet, I've found the following formula to work effectively and conveniently, because the order in which the equation is composed does not matter.

Essentially, you work entirely off of the 50% base crit bonus and add the final result to the base 100% non-crit value.

Crit Bonus = 0.5 * TalentModifiers * ItemModifiers

Modifiers that work off the 150% base, such as Elemental Oath and Chaotic Skyfire Diamond work as follows:
Standard equation: ( 1.0 + 3 * Bonus)
Elemental Oath: ( 1.0 + 3 * 0.03 * EO ) where EO=0|1|2
Chaotic Skyfire Diamond: ( 1.0 + 3 * 0.03 * CSD ) where CSD=0|1

Talent Modifiers are a bit particular. It has been shown for Mages that the percentage bonus of SpellPower and IceShards is additive. It is unclear yet how Elemental Fury and Lava Flows will work together. Assuming they follow the Mage paradigm:

TalentModifier = (1.0 + Bonus )
Elemental Fury = ( 1.0 + 1.0 * EF ) where EF=0|1
Lava Flows = ( 1.0 + 0.06 * LF ) where LF=0|1|2|3
If additive: EF + LF = ( 1.0 + 1.0 * EF + 0.06 * LF )
If multiplicative: EF * LF = ( 1.0 + 1.0 * EF ) * ( 1.0 + 0.06 * LF )

Putting EO, CSD, EF, and LF all together:

CritBonus = 0.5 * ( 1.0 + 3 * 0.03 * EO ) * ( 1.0 + 3 * 0.03 * CSD ) * ( 1.0 + 1.0 * EF ) * ( 1.0 + 0.06 * LF )

TotalDamage = BaseDamage + BaseDamage * CritBonus

I find this formulation particularly helpful in the simulator where bits and pieces of the calculation are fit together in various functions and I need not rely upon specific order of expression.

EDIT: I changed the "CritBonus" equation above to use the "multiplicative" combination of EF/LF. Personally, I think this is more likely despite the Mage example simply because it allows one to distribute the calculation even more. You simply start out with a 0.5 base value and just do a string of "CritBonus = CritBonus * Something". But given that LvB has a cooldown it probably doesn't matter much either way.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Psykhe

And the reason for that, as ofancow already said, is that enh personal dps tends to be below that of ele. So enh needs better buffs to compensate.

Basically the total dps a class provides is their personal dps + the dps the raid gains from their buffs. Higher personal dps + lower buff dps = lower personal dps + higher buff dps.

 

Pitbuller

WWS Scoreboard
How many elemental you can find on that list? Enhancement have big dps lead over elemental in TBC. But do this continue on Wotlk we can't say yet.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Daidalos

I have no idea what the basis for this is, but from my personal experience in a very very dps focused guild this was not the case and I think wws backs me up on this. Basically in BC I saw ele and enh dps being about even however the raid dps gained was far higher with an enh shaman.

I certainly hope in wotlk that casters will scale with melee it certainly seems in BC that rogue and hunters dominate the dps charts with warlocks getting high scores in a handful of fights. While there are plenty of ways to penelize caster or melee to decrease thier dps, in any apples to apples comparison on a tank n spank fight melee pretty much came out on top. Enh shaman were part of this reason. I want to make sure this doesn't happen again in wotlk but perhaps you are right are melee and casters are already re-balanced around this. Min/maxing in BC pretty much meant enh shaman were required while ele were not. I am hoping this will not be an issue in wotlk. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

• Binkenstein

If you are referring to the wotlk OO sheet I put out, it did that already (or haven't you noticed the Elemental Fury & Lava Flow numbers?). Anyway, it doesn't matter as I'm throwing in the towel on everything TC & Spreadsheet related.

 

Daidalos

Keeping sheets updated is def a job. Mine is mostly updated expect to see a wotlk version from me in the next week or so. My sheets are math/tc oriented and not really gear centered though. I think i'll make a generated wo-head link to loot so you can sort by your DEP values though. Currently my DEP values are broken tho so it may be a few weeks. Personally I'd like to be lvl 80 and have all my ranks of spells but I can release something before then if people really want.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

everwatch

I don't honestly know what you're talking about. Elemental does more dps than Enhancement only outside of 25man raids. When Enhancement is stacked in a 25man they far outperform Elemental. WWS Scoreboards has shown Enhancement doing significantly larger dps than Elemental ever has in top end 25man raids.

On top of which, they are the best physical buffing class/spec in the entire game. Their DPS loss compared to Rogues/Hunters is supposed to be because of their Utility that they add. Comparatively speaking, since Ele does far less damage than a Lock/Mage, and does not buff anywhere near as much as Enhancement, Ele should do significantly more DPS or should have their Utility significantly increased.


As far as "equal buffs" Daid, I think you're a little bit off. White damage for melee is between 25%-50% of their damage on average depending on spec and class. A 20% haste bonus to that is roughly like a 7% overall haste increase to everything. While a 5% spell haste from WoA is very comparable versus the "talented" WF totem.

Then compare 6% bonus to overall spell dmg to 10% AP. Think 3kish AP for BC, which is like 300AP extra (equivalent to a BS from a warrior). 6% overall damage may not be equal (not sure on greater/lesser) but it's close. IMO, the real questions comes more into which buffs will be raid wide and/or party wide. Once that is more firmly established (as far as future implementation) more real discussion could ensue. As it is, the Ele buffs seem to me to be quite on par with Enhancement, considering that most of what Enhancement is bringing to the table can be closely duplicated by use of Resto Shaman and Death Knights.

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

Daidalos

I don't know of any melee class that was anything close to 20% white dmg. I just looked up a couple random legit wws for brutalus.

enh shaman: 53% white dmg
Wow Web Stats

war: 40% white dmg
Wow Web Stats

ret pally: 46% white dmg
Wow Web Stats


rogue: 68% white dmg
Wow Web Stats

I think any claims of 20-40 are way low. 40 - 60 seems more inline with an average of 50% seeming reasonable

However it seems I was overestimating 10% AP and totem of wrath does seem equivalent.

So 6% more dmg and 3 crit. With any reasonable amount of crit 3 additional crit is likely 1-2% additional damage although with all the new crit talents perhaps this will be better than it would be in live.

So perhaps a total of 8% additional dmg for casters vs 6.5% or so for melee

20% melee haste for raid vs 5% spell haste for raid
assuming even a low end of 40% white dmg.
20% melee haste is 8% additional dmg vs 5% additional dmg for casters (haste also consumes more mana for casters, while rogues and wars gain additional benefits from haste)

98str+98agi for raid vs 6% increased crit dmg and 6% reduced mana cost for party


So if you brought an enh shaman for melee the buffs you could expect (at lvl 70) are:
raid: ~6% addtional dmg
raid: 20% haste from wf (8-10% dmg increase)
raid: 73 spell power (flametongue totem)
raid: 98agi 98 str:


if you bring an ele for caster buffs
raid: ~8% additional dmg
raid: 5% haste (5% dmg increase for casters that are not dot based. Also increase mana consumption)
party: 6% additional dmg (based on Roywyn numbers)
raid: 86str+86agi

note: yes I do know that if you have 20% haste an additional 5% haste is not a 5% dps gain but I treated melee and casters the same.

The numbers look fairly close but I think melee still have a slight advantage. Its nothing as drastic as live however.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

kasouti

Are you honestly trying to use 25 man raids as a comparison for enhance and elemental dps potential? When have you ever been in a group with 2 bm hunters, a moonkin, and a spriest with 2-3 enhance shaman in the raid giving you stormstrikes. How often do you get as many bloodlusts as the melee group that enhance shaman is in?

Most of the WWS Scoreboards data is based off ideal group makeups for the enhance shaman which obviously will happen. It's also missing a lot of data from other sources that don't have there WWS on the site. I'll agree that with the way groups are setup in 25 man raids enhance has the edge, but in dps potential I wouldn't give them the win so easily.

 

tufy

If you've seen the latest changes: all downranking has been effectively killed, as the primary spells now take a percentage of base mana cost, rather than a fixed value.

Specifically, Lightning Bolt now costs 10% base mana and Chain Lightning 23% base mana. Rank 1 LB actually costs 13% base mana (for comparisson).

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Kaideq

With the same quality group setup and amount of heroisms I have done equal dps to top wws's of enhancement shamans on brutalus, it's not very hard to do top dps with a lot of buffers. Topped 2561 with a boomkin and 2 heroisms.
It's just not a good idea to stack buffs in a caster group like that if you're going for optimal raid dps as rogues/glaive fury wars just scale better.

For BC the new totem and UR come very close with a slight favor to UR , EO + WoA vs WF does not compare at all.
I agree the big + is that only elemental shamans bring the new group buffs not all shamans, some evening out on the buffs themselves would be highly appreciated though.

Starchild Spacegoat Shaman in Beta

 

Hainar

Having only done parts of BT and most of MH based on our guilds wws logs I was almost always above our enhancement shaman for every fight unless it was a melee friendly fight. So how come this is the case then? All our guild wws logs are public at Wow Web Stats if you want go look.

 

KraxisSingular

That's a pretty big change. I guess this goes for all mana users?
Personally I'm not totally adverse to it. It means Blizzard can reasonably expect a certain amount of manausage over time for each class/spec and tweak the manaregen to better fit it (I say 'fit' as 'match' would be wrong given that implies a total recovery of mana). Of course it will also mean you can't scale back outside of not casting when something goes wrong, like a crucial mana recoverer dies or something. But hopefully we shouldn't see the fearful 1 min in combat = OOM situations.

It will be most interesting to see how this pans out.

 

tufy

Yes, it goes for all mana users. It also means our spell interrupt (Earth Shock) will now cost twice as much as mage counterspell, with no way around it.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Gdmanyak

By the way in WoTLK we won't be able to output good damage without Moonkin's Eart&Moon debuff (Blizzard note that will decrease Lightning Blot Coefficient, but will give a lot of debuffs\buffs to increase total damage output but lower coefficient)
By the way an Enhancement shaman with a Glyph for +8% Nature Damage debuff from SS will be useful a lot too, but am still not sure which kind of Glyph will it be and if every Enhancer will take it

 

Torgol

I don't mean to sound rude, but while 6% extra nature damage will certainly be nice, I hardly think it will make or break our DPS. Especially when it is only one of several scalars affecting nature damage (a revamped Curse of Elements being another, last I heard). And the blue comment about the LB coefficient reduction being compensated for with more raid debuffs affecting nature damage seems rather irrelevent in light of the revamped SE&F, which is increasing our LB coefficient by 25%. Certainly, they are giving us the benefit of more raid debuffs, but they're not nerfing the LB coefficient into oblivion either. I suspect we'll be quite self-sufficient, even if it takes a variety of raid buffs to bring us up to full power. . . the same can be said of any other DPS class.

The Stormstike glyph is an interesting case. . . I suspect its value to Enhancement shaman will depend a lot on whether the issues with Maelstrom Weapon and the swing timer get sorted out. If they don't, and there are other glyphs that are more valuable to the shaman personally, I wouldn't expect to see the glyph used unless the shaman is particularly selfless. I'd be surprised if the issues with Maelstrom Weapon don't get resolved, though. Regardless, even if the glyph is used, we won't necessarily get that much of the benefit. Too many other sources of nature damage using up the SS charges.

 

princeinexile

Exactly. While this would be a small increase to our DPS, we'll be sharing it with Boomkins, whose wrath is faster than our LB, and thus more likely to grab SS charges, as well as with Enhance shamans themselves, since they will want to be using it for their Earth Shocks; I believe that Static Shocks might end up using the Stormstrike charges as well. Overall, we'll get much more benefit/synergy with CoE and the Boomkin debuff.

 

dedmonwakeen

In my multi-player sims containing:
1 Enh Shaman
2 Ele Shaman (one MD/MQ)
1 Boomkin (Starfire primary, except when attempting to proc Eclipse with Wrath)
1 Shadow Priest
1 Holy Priest

I'm showing a 32% up-time for the Nature Vulnerability debuff.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Gdmanyak

I think boomkin won't have Eclipse in PvE build. May be only if he doesn't take mana regen from spirit( he ll have 3 free talents and ll put in Eclipse), but he can went oomkin instead of Boomkin because of that. Anyway starfire damage is much better then wrath.
In high end raiding Md\MQ won't rock imho, because Md\MQ ll give ~ 500 sd , remember about nerfed LB coefficients, and it won't cost as much as Storm Earth and Fire buff for LB in high end raiding(and also u would use LaB in ur rotation and ll get benefits from CoE and Scorch buff(if have Fire mage in raid)) , when u would probably have about 2000 or more spelldamage

 

ofancow

[going off of math done by others earlier in this thread, when quoting figures]

The real sleeper talent in the new build is Lava Flows. In the "highest possible raid dps" rotations, LaB was accounting for about 24% of DPS (assuming ~100% crit rate via FlS consumption). This crit rate allows Lava Flows to essentially increase the DPS contribution to that rotation to about 30% (or greater assuming meta gems, party buffs etc). This just barely nudges 52/0/19 ahead of 43/28/0 assuming 2000 base spell power and MQ only giving 500 bonus spell power.

At lower gear levels, or higher AtP buff levels, 43/28/0 looks like it will continue to run ahead of 52/0/19.

So that sort of gives a rough line in the sand, for PvE.

For PvP I think a defensively talented 43/28/0 is going to be the gold standard though. Thunder is good and fun, but unless your Arena group has a Moonkin/Warlock/Spriest in it I can't see a 52/x/x variant being capable of damage output or survivability like MQ builds.