Anatta

One thing to also consider is that casting Flame Shock immediately after Lava Burst will potentially cause DoT-clipping problems due to Lava Burst having a travel time and Flame Shock being instant; ideally, you want Flame Shock's DoT to run it's course in order to gain full benefit from SE&F before being consumed.

Of course, if the remaining DoT damage was "baked in" in to the Lava Burst crit (or if Lava Burst's missile-speed was instant), this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

 

tufy

Durnitol: %-modifiers are calculated additively, not multiplicatively. Also, we have 4 major glyphs for 3 slots right now, even without adding Earth Shock one (which I'm pretty certain will be changed to Wind Shock).

ofancow, your flame shock coefficients may be wrong. The tests ran by Daidalos and me separately here give the numbers of 21% on dd and 39% on dot. Also, you might want to calculate %-modifiers together (base damage + spellpower)x(1+modifiers).

Darian: I've been running some tests of Lava Flow crit damage modifier. My usual grinding hit damage is around 2250 and my crit damage is 5200. With Hex Head active, it crits for around 5700. This suggests a total crit modifier of 2.33. If we subtract 9% (CSD), we get 2.24 - in other words, It seems to add flat 24% base on top of regular crit damage.

EDIT: Anatta, I agree. That's why you'll want to do Lava Burst->Lightning Bolt->Flame Shock->rest of rotation. This way, FS still gets reduced mana cost and you get the maximum possible dot damage without danger of flame shock being eaten too soon.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

ofancow

You are correct, and Wowiki is wrong. I did some tests and consistently got 21% on the DD and 39% on the DoT, the same as you. I'm too tired to rework all the numbers now, I'll have to get to it at some later date when my eyes aren't blurred. It'll be something like a loss of 200 damage for SE&F build, and a loss of less than half that for the MQ build (SE&F build relies a lot on the DOT portion, which takes the biggest hit with the changed calculation). Either way it won't change the end results -- give or take a few spell damage, that's about where the cross-over point appears to be.

edit: to your response regarding clipping FlS with LaB, that's one of the many reasons I think that the rotation I posted is the most robust rotation. FlS > LBx4 > LaB > CL repeat has several benefits:

CL and FlS will always cast at reduced mana cost

FlS will never be clipped

The rotation is tolerant of haste gearing and buffs

A rotation can be used where CL is cast whenever it is up, and LBs are used as filler time between LaB CDs, and it would slightly improve DPS, but it would lose a lot of mana efficiency (which is worth what it's worth, if the player has no mana issues there is no downside).

 

Daidalos

Yes I actually added travel time to my spreadsheet to account for this. I just been busy moving IRL and waiting for buffs to clear up so I can redo them.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Darian_TruBlade

Well phooey. I suppose 250%+ crits were always a pipe dream.

Does Lava Burst not consume the Flame Shock DoT? I'm confused as to what people mean when they talk about a clipping issue if Lava Burst is going to remove the DoT before the last tick anyway. Is this a funky case of game mechanics where if the DoT drops while Lava Burst is in flight it'll still be a guaranteed Crit? Or is the clipping referring to the potential to accidentally consume the Flame Shock by the still-in-flight Lava Burst?

 

Ashen

It's actually referring to the potential of having a rotation that starts and ends with Lava Burst --> Flame Shock --> Lightning Bolt... etc. etc. etc. Lava Burst --> Flame Shock.

Reason being that if you follow up the Lava Burst with a Flame Shock, there's a chance that your Flame Shock lands before that previous Lava Burst... meaning your brand new Flame Shock gets consumed.

But any solid DPS rotation would most likely have another spell in between, unless you're using Chain Lightning whenever the cooldown is up, in which case, there isn't a reliable spell in between aside from Lightning Bolt.

 

Durnitol

Which % modifiers are you referring to? Are you saying that concussion and call of flame are adding a % of base damage instead of multiplying by total damage? Or are you simply saying that Concussion and call of flame %'s are added together when figuring out total modifiers?

I'm not sure why you refer to te 4 Major Glyphs, since my post references only one of them regarding Earth Shock, which is the whole basis of the 51/0/20 spec raid rotation I proposed.

I used the MD/MQ numbers and formulae directly, just for consistency. I don't happen to agree with them, but I wanted to be consistent. From my point of view, without raid buffs, raid-style debuffs on the target, and ignoring hit% since I think we can safely assume is capped regardless of spec, I would have the formulae for 51/0/20 build like this:



Lightning Bolt Damage:

(Base (765) + SpellPower x DmgCoefficient(.714) x SE&FMod(1.25)** )
x (1 + ConcussionMod(.05))
x (1 + CharCritChance + CallOfThunderMod(.05) + TidalMasteryMod(.05))

Flame Shock:
((BaseDD (500) + SpellPower x DmgCoefficient(.21) ) x (1+CharCritChance)
+ (BaseDoT (556) + SpellPower x DmgCoefficient(.39) ) x SE&FMod(2) x .75)***)
x (1+ ConcussionMod(.05))

Earth Shock:
(Base (872) + SpellPower x DmgCoefficient(.43) )
x (1 + ConcussionMod(.05))
x (1 + CharCritChance)

Lava Burst:
(Base (1012) + SpellPower x DmgCoefficient(.57) )
x (1 + ConcussionMod(.05) + CallOfFlameMod(.06) )
x (2 + LavaFlowsMod (.24) )

Using the MD/MQ post stats:
1750 spell power from gear
25% critical strike from gear

I could not find the base SpellPower gain for FT weapon, so I could not factor in Lava Flows for the bonus, but from what I remember it's around 45. Since I could not find the base, I I'll ignore it for now.

Lightning Bolt damage: 3298 [3416**]
Flame Shock Damage : 1084 + 1950 = 3034
Earth Shock Damage : 2132
Lava Burst damage: 4996
Overload Damage****: 1084

Assuming my previous stated 15% haste rotation of FlS/LB/LB/LB/ES/LB/LB/LaB at 12 sec, allowing about .5 sec to prevent FlS clipping....

27736 [28326**] total damage, 2311 [2360**] dps.

Solving for any spellpower value (X) at 25% crit...

(765+.89[.94**]X)7.0875 + ((500 + .21X)1.25 + (556+.39X)1.5)1.05 + (872+.43X)1.3125 + (1012 + .57X)2.4864 + 1084 =
5422 + 6.308[6.662**]X + (625 + .2625X + 834 + .585X)1.05 + 1144 + .564X + 2516 + 1.417X =
10614 + 6.308[6.662**]X + 2.871X +1084=
11698 + 9.179[9.533**]X*****


43/28/0 build:

Lightning Bolt loses TidalMastery and SE&F
(765 + .714X)x1.05x1.30

FlameShock loses SE&F
((500 + .21X)1.25 + (556+.39X).75)1.05

LavaBurst loses Lava Flows
(1012 + .57X)x 1.11 x 2

Chain Lightning (single target) formula:
(Base (1042) + SpellPower x DmgCoefficient(.571))
x (1 + ConcussionMod(.05))
x (1 + CharCritChance + CallOfThunderMod(.05) ) =
(1042 +.571X)x1.05x1.30



15% haste rotation: FlS/LB/LB/LB/LB/CL/LaB

Overload = .2 x 4 x 1.3 x 1.05 x 765 = 835


4(1044 + .9746X) + (625+ .2625X + 417 + .2925X)1.05 + 2246 + 1.2654X + 1422 + .7794X + 835=
4176 + 3.898X + 1094 + .583X + 2246 + 1.2654X + 1422 + .7794X + 835 =
9773 + 6.526X

5 LB 15% haste rotation: FlS/LB/LB/LB/LB/LB/LaB:
5(1044 + .9746X) + (625+ .2625X + 417 + .2925X)1.05 + 2246 + 1.2654X + 1044=
5220 + 4.873X + 1094 + .583X + 2246 + 1.2654X + 1044=
9604 + 6.721X


For 1750 damage from gear in a 12 sec rotation ,the MQ/MD build would need how much spell power from raid buffs?

27736 = 9604 + 6.721X
X = 2696 total spell power, a difference of 954.

But what about the .5 second difference in DPS Durnitol!!!!????

27736/12 = (9604 + 6.721X)/11.5
X = 2526 total spell power, a difference of 776.

And remember, I didnt include the extra flametongue weapon damage =).

Conclusion: you need more than 776 AP with raid buffs at 1750 SP and 25% crit from gear for MQ/MD to be better than 51/0/20 with Earth Shock Glyph.


Just for fun, lets take out Earth Shock and add in the current coefficient for SE&F.

26194/12 = (9604 + 6.721X)/11.5
X = 2305, or 555 SP gained from MQ


I took the pains (and it was painful) to reduce the 51/0/20 hasted rotation formula to include Crit Strike % as a variable. Here is the Damage Output in a rotation. Divide by the roation time for the DPS:

X = Spell Power, Y = Crit % (.25 = 25%, e.g.)

With Earth Shock
10133.9858 + X*8.131998 + X*Y*5.607 + Y*6260.1

Without Earth Shock
9218.3858 + X*7.680498 + X*Y*5.1555 + Y*5344.5

MD/MQ Rotation (Fls/LB/LB/LB/LB/CL/LaB)
8575.3575 + X*5.5712925 + X*Y*3.81885 + Y*5635.35

Working with the above formulas, I have found that added crit% from non-talents makes almost no difference in the builds.




** Note that the reported total coefficient with SE&F is .94, and some factors were provided to allow for this.
*** .75 was multiplied to Flame shock damage to account for the last damage tick being consumed by Lava Burst
**** Overload doesn't add spell damage, only talent bonuses and crit.
*****This formula is a bit off(1-2%) due to a lot of rounding down.

 

lrdx

 

tufy

Durnitol: ToW glyph gives 1% haste, Flametongue glyph gives 2% crit. You'll want both of those. Then you can choose between -10% mana on LB or 10 yard extra range on Flame Shock. Most people will go for the latter. Which one of those will you replace with Earth Shock glyph? Because whichever you do, you lose something - and I believe that loss has to be calculated too before you judge how good a build is.

And I was referring to how spells like Call of Flame and Concussion interact, yes. Your previous calculation on page 34 had them multiplied (1.05 * 1.06) instead of added (1 + 0.05 + 0.06), which shifts the balance quite a bit in the end.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Durnitol

At the end of my last post I have recently added the formulae for the rotation I proposed, with and without Earth shock. I figured out what you meant by additive and already factored that into the math.

Since I don't have to give up either the Crit% glyph or 1% haste, why would I not want to abuse the hell out of the extra damage an earth shock will provide since it has has no global cooldown with the glyph. 10 yard range on Flame Shock doesn't get me extra damage, 10% mana reduction is the only debatable other glyph for simple lasting power. If mana is not an issue, why not just tack on the 150-200 DPS earth shock provides at no cost to the rotation time.

Remember, I am talking purely about a 51/0/20 build, and not MD/MQ. The MD/MQ build can not fit Earth Shock into the rotation because of the 6 sec cooldown on shocks, which it doesn't fit into the talent tree. The addtion of Earth Shock here is my whole reason for posting.

Are you saying that the added DPS is not worth the glyph?

 

Anksunamun

Does anyone know what kind of glyphs we can have?
I mean, they are all available or we can use only the reduced mana cost of LB instead of increased flame shock etc?
They are still considered as minor, lesser, medium etc?
If yes, can you please tell me which kind of glyphs are these?

* Glyph - Water Shield 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Water Shield has 3 additional charges.
* Glyph - Earth Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the global cooldown triggered by your Earth Shock ability by 1 sec.
* Glyph - Frost Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the duration of your Frost Shock by 2 sec.
* Glyph - Flame Shock 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the range on your Flame Shock ability by 10 yards.
* Glyph - Lighnting Shield 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the damage from Lightning Shield by 20%.
* Glyph - Chain Lightning 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Chain Lightning strikes 1 additional target.
* Glyph - Fire Nova Totem 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases the radius of Fire Nova Totem's effect by 2 yards.
* Glyph - Flametongue Weapon 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Increases spell critical strike chance by 2% while Flametongue Weapon is active.
* Glyph - Totem of Wrath 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Your Totem of Wrath also grants 1% spell haste.
* Glyph - Lightning Bolt 01 (Shaman) (Class: Shaman) - Reduces the cost of your Lightning Bolt ability by -10%.

 

Kaideq

How does the MD/MQ build hold up at higher spell dmg levels?
Currently on live, I am nearly pushing 1600 raid buffed depending on the fight and at just 15% spell haste I can easily get the 1750 Dmg 15 haste 25 crit buffed at level 70 if I re-gem for it.
Basically you are punching in TBC numbers into WOTLK talents and as such the build with the static buffs is winning dps wise.
If you want realistic comparisons , I think we should be looking at 2k, 2.25k spell dmg. Hopefully we will see the Nax release on the beta over the weekend, so we can actually start theory crafting with the actual stats instead of guestimates.

Starchild Spacegoat Shaman in Beta

 

Mmootimus

From mmo-champion:

Ok, its PVE use was probably questionable anyway, and yes, we all saw it coming, but damn, it would have been fun.

[edit] An unintended nerf apparently, and it will be changed back - WoW Forums -> Thunderstorm Rolfstomped

 

jimmyolsen

Rather than spec into reverb (which makes a 51/0/20 build impossible without giving up Unrelenting storms as far as I can tell), why not throw Chain Lightning after Lava Burst? You will lose a slight amount of dot time (1.07 seconds at 15% haste), but will allow for travel time to be accounted for before refreshing the Flame shock. Furthermore, CL will take advantage of the 40% mana cost reduction as the LaB will be a guaranteed crit.

0: FlS
1: LB
2.74: LB
4.48: LB
6.22: ES
6.22: LB
7.96: LB
9.88: Lava
11.62: CL

Repeat.

Considering you are at 20 yard range in order to make this work (sacrificing the 10 yard range glyph on Flame Shock) Lava Burst should land before CL goes off (unlike when LB is cast from max range) with enough time for Elemental Focus to trigger.

The other question to ask is how EM would work into this rotation. My intuition suggest placing it on the LB immediately after the Earth Shock in order to have Elemental Focus active for Lava Burst. Although mana wise placing it with the ES would be better, the highest damage potential for the crit obviously comes with the LB.

 

• Binkenstein

Weapon imbues appear to be fixed. Whatever rank we had is sitting at 96 spellpower, and Lava Flows works correctly with it.
Haven't checked the new ranks though.

 

Kistrel

Am I missing something or is this not really how it will work? Global cooldown is 1.5sec, the glyph lowers Earth Shock cooldown by 1.0sec. Therefore you have 0.5sec left on your cooldown for Earth Shocking which would take around 526 Haste rating at 70 to remove completely. A rather unlikely number to achieve?

Granted, the tiny cooldown from the Earth Shock with spell haste will likely still be worth it in the rotation, but making Earth Shock out to be a cooldown free source of extra damage is not correct as the bolded numbers in the quote above suggest.

 

Durnitol

You do have to give up unrelenting storms to get that spec, but we are talking about maximum damage, not most efficient. The CL is not a bad idea, and we could extend it a bit further to get a maximum damage rotation (including reverberation)....

0: FlS
1: CL
2.4: LB
4.14: LB
5.88: ES
5.88: LB
7.52: CL
8.82: LB
10.56: Lava
12.30: Repeat



Now that I'm thinking about this.... LaB is the biggest DPS we have when it crits off flame shock. Why don't we just cast a LaB as soon as friggin possible while keeping FlS up? FlS itself is 2nd best DPS with SE&F if it gets the listed 75% dot damage, assuming we count all of the dot damage in the total damage /global cooldown. It's even still higher than LB at half dot dmg. So going along that theory, we need at least 6 seconds of ticks before being able to maximize the fire damage before landing LaB, and it that has an 8sec cooldown, you are really looking at an 8 second rotation instead of a 12.


0: FlS
1: CL
2.4: LB
4.14: LB

5.88: LaB (Start rotation)
7.52: FlS
8.52: CL
9.82: LB
11.56: LB
13.30: ???
13.88 Repeat

Since there is a .5 sec gap in there where you basically can't cast anything you might as well replace the CL with LB
You wouldn't need that glyph and that whole Earth shock thing. Adjusted numbers from my other post:

@ 25% crit from non-talents and 1750 SP, 51/0/20:

Lightning Bolt damage: 3416
Avg Overload Damage per LB: 216.8
Flame Shock Damage : (1084 + 1238)* 1.05 = 2438
Lava Burst damage: 4996

Total damage in 8 sec rotation : 18332, or 2291 DPS

Looks like that wasted .5 second is much worse than I thought, that's a bit lower (70 dps) than the first rotation I posted. However, I think the above may be the superior MD/MQ rotation when i get to thinking about it.


Let's try the 12.3 second with CL and ES I listed at the beginning, requiring Reverberation.

Chain Lightning Damage: 2893
Avg Overload damage per CL: 295.4

LB: (3416+216.8) x 4 = 14531.2
CL: (2893+295.4) x 2 = 6376.8
LaB: : 4996
FlS w/ 3 ticks: 3034
ES: 2132

Total: 31070, or 2526 DPS, or a solid 160 DPS more than my first go round. Thanks for the good tip Jimmy. I will need to follow up on some of the numbers here later for MD/MQ

 

Durnitol

ACK!!! My whole theory is relying on a 1 sec global cooldown. Look at the difference adding that to flameshock global CD too.

at 15% haste, a 1.5 GCD is... 1.3 sec, subtracting 1 sec from that makes .3 sec, for a grand total of 1.6 seconds between the two shocks...


I could have SWORN the GCD was 1 sec...

 

Dyvozvir

Just a notice:
43/28 famous MD|MQ build
Lets compare legs from enhance and elemental set

Elemental__/__Enhance

spellpower 85__/__80 (267AP)
crit rating 56__/__52
hit rating 37__/__31
int 69__/__65 (59+10% talented)

Lets see what we will have comparing gloves:

enhance
+35 crit
+26 haste

elemenal
+7 SP
+38 hit
+16 mp5
+6 int

we dont know set bonuses yet tho, elem set will give more ofc, but if you apply this calculations for some nonset gear- diference is not that big. For example you can try with
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...0_loot_029.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...0_loot_064.jpg

Gearing up we will see a lot of restore sham gear, and i m pretty sure lot of elementals will take it just because you need a lot of luck with item drop just for you and no1 else.

But if MD/MQ will remain viable at start of raiding we have 1 more trick with gear as you see

So for those who like to respec a lot - better take enhance gear ANd think it will be upgrade from 80 lvl blue even full of elem (sp, haste,crit,hit) stats.

P.S. If you go for all such items, swaping from 1h-caster/shield for 2-hander (hello WF) will give you good caster/meele hybrid potential. For example in OOM situations, or in fights with lot of silence/interupt.

 

Darian_TruBlade

The GCD is 1 second for Rogues. Everyone else deals with a 1.5 second GCD. Casters with enough haste can reduce that to 1 second but it's very rare for any caster to do so without the aid of Heroism/Bloodlust or a trinket proc/use (especially as doing so would make those buffs worthless).

1.6 seconds isn't bad, my biggest concern with your interesting idea is the mana cost of consistently dumping Earthshock in a rotation.

The only problem with your strategy is that current projections show MQ&MD being approximately even with Deep Elemental pre-raid. It's likely the moment you start getting raid gear MQ&MD will be obsolete. Being able to take Enhancement/Hunter gear only helps if you have no Enhancement Shamans/Hunters, and if you're getting set tokens you'll always want the Elemental version.

I'm also skeptical of MQ&MD's melee potential. A very large amount of Enhancement's DPS comes from talents MQ&MD can not take and from casting spells which would be counterproductive in the OOM/silenced situations you mentioned. Moreover, the typical raiding position of an Elemental Shaman is such that no interrupt or silence I've encountered is long enough to warrant equipping a different weapon and running in to attack. By the time you've changed your equipment it will already be time to change it back.

MQ&MD is an interesting concept, but I don't see it as functional beyond a novelty.

 

tufy

Rank 9 with Lava Flows (60% additional spellpower) is giving me 297 spellpower. Flametongue totem (rank 8) says 144 spellpower, but only adds 73, while ToW (rank 3) gives 140 right now.

With base 1110 spellpower + Flametongue Weapon + ToW (together 1547 spellpower) + both T6 bonuses I made 5450 LB crits (almost 6000 with Hex Head active).Interestingly, Lava Burst only critted 4900. Researching causes now.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Daidalos

My LvB crits are very consistent ranging from 4200 to 6100 today. Seems on the buggy side I'll try to figure out why there is such a large discrepancy.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

Durnitol

Was MQ nerfed to 30% of AP? Or was it always that way? If it was 100% and recently nerfed, I don't think that ~280SP on average from MQ will break any stock builds. All the math I have been doing was based on a 100% bonus from AP.

 

Anksunamun

No. It's right.
The 100% bonus was from Mental Dexterity, maybe you have confused them.

 

tarrek

There are posts on the blizzard forums suggesting that LaB was (unintentionally) nerfed from having 100% spellpower coefficent to having the "proper" coefficent for a 2s cast.