I wonder if the Air Elemental is actually a shaman spell, it would be kinda neat to have a tornado companion. They classified the summon as a shaman spell but at this point it could just as easily be used by npcs or a quest.
51475 Summon Air Elemental Summons an Air Elemental to accompany the caster until dismissed.
One thing that really surprised me is that we got no further pve group/raid buffs what so ever. They take a cue from the enhance tree and make elemental buffs unique. I think if they folded in a 20% bonus to WoA somewhere, and/or put in an elemental version of unleashed rage with a chaotic skyfire-type crit bonus perhaps, it'd increase elemental job security in a world where moving a Rsham to the caster group and adding another warlock increases raid dps much more so than ToW.
I must say that elemental oath very powerfull talent if you jsut look it from right perspective.
While it is a good chance that Resto and Elemental Shamans will share the same armour pool, there should still be enchants and gems that covers the few missing spell-hit percents. Outside of that, then we have Rings, Amulets, Weapons and Off-hand items that can cover any potential loss. Heck, we can still wear cloth if necessary, and we should not forget a Moonkin with Imp. Faerie Fire.
In short, Elemental Oath is an interesting talent but I doubt it will be desireable in a PvE situation. If you want to reach the spell hit cap, then it should still be relative easy to do so.
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One thing that really surprised me is that we got no further pve group/raid buffs what so ever. I think if they folded in a 20% bonus to WoA somewhere, and/or put in an elemental version of unleashed rage with a chaotic skyfire-type crit bonus perhaps, it'd increase elemental job security in a world where moving a Rsham to the caster group and adding another warlock increases raid dps much more so than ToW.
As I mentioned in my first post, I'm also suprised of the lack of new talents that enhance our raid/party support. Of course, you can argue that Elemental Shamans will finally be the ultimate dps/healing hybrid, considering the change to the spell coeffecient of heals and the fact that Elemental Focus now also work for heals. However, my gut feeling is that this will only be noticeable in a 5-man instance.
Last edited by Lucitron : 11/06/08 at 5:16 AM.
Reason: Removed my own QQ
While it is a good chance that Resto and Elemental Shamans will share the same armour pool, there should still be enchants and gems that covers the few missing spell-hit percents. Outside of that, then we have Rings, Amulets, Weapons and Off-hand items that can cover any potential loss. Heck, we can still wear cloth if necessary, and we should not forget a Moonkin with Imp. Faerie Fire.
In short, Elemental Oath is an interesting talent but I doubt it will be desireable in a PvE situation. If you want to reach the spell hit cap, then it should still be relative easy to do so.
If you looked my math. 98% spell hit(with 50% crit) without hit from gear, enchants etc. So is there any real need to get 99% to hit if you could get 98% without any hit items.
The improved stormstrike changes arn't really going to benifit us all that much now that enhancement shamans themselves will be putting out lightning shield nature DPS, boomkins using wrath and rogues will probably beable to use instant again. They should just make it a flat 10% and remove the charges with improved.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the new stormstrike. The lightning shield effect you speak of will go off around 4 times a minute, it is not a deal-breaker. So it will consume up to 4 out of roughly 30 charges per minute.
If you looked my math. 98% spell hit(with 50% crit) without hit from gear, enchants etc. So is there any real need to get 99% to hit if you could get 98% without any hit items.
Ok, must confess that I mainly considered how easy it is currently to get spell hit maxed and thus didn't really consider the relative worth of Elemental Oath. It is indeed a quite good talent, and I stand corrected.
By the way, decided to convert your formula to: (17 - [% from talents, racial and gear]) * (1 - (1 - crit)^2) / 2
Prefer to look at the relative worth of a talent when I talent spec, and this adjusted formula shows the spell hit% that you get per talent point in Elemental Oath.
The equation is more complicated then that, I believe. You'll need an extra term to consider lava burst, and the uptime of Clearcasting. Clearcasting is up after a crit for a minimum of 2 seconds, with enough spell haste to drop LB down to a 1 second cast, and a maximum of 4 seconds. Also, Lavaburst will be able to guarantee a crit with proper flame shock usage. So it will end up being a function of crit %, haste, and rotation. Also, consider 9%(10% for alliance) spell hit from 51/0/20. This will factor into necessary uptime for 99% hit.
But again, this basically all comes down to gear. If our gear has spell hit on it, the talent is useless, if not then it becomes useful.
The equation is more complicated then that, I believe. You'll need an extra term to consider lava burst, and the uptime of Clearcasting. Clearcasting is up after a crit for a minimum of 2 seconds, with enough spell haste to drop LB down to a 1 second cast, and a maximum of 4 seconds. Also, Lavaburst will be able to guarantee a crit with proper flame shock usage. So it will end up being a function of crit %, haste, and rotation. Also, consider 9%(10% for alliance) spell hit from 51/0/20. This will factor into necessary uptime for 99% hit.
But again, this basically all comes down to gear. If our gear has spell hit on it, the talent is useless, if not then it becomes useful.
Good point I had forgotten about lava burst crit. I find it highly unlikely that hit will be forced on an ele shaman since the resto gear would never have any on it. Simply look at current resto gear and change the +heal to pure spell dmg and you find resto gear is actually quite good for ele. I would assume gear would stay along the same lines. Even if there are ele and resto peices I think they will be alot more interchanginable than they currently are. Really the only stat that would differentitate resto and ele gear would be hit (since its looking like crit will be good for resto now) so its quite possible all ele/resto gear will be crit heavy and be very light (possibly none) on hit.
I find it highly unlikely that hit will be forced on an ele shaman since the resto gear would never have any on it. Simply look at current resto gear and change the +heal to pure spell dmg and you find resto gear is actually quite good for ele.
I agree, however, rings, neck pieces, and cloaks do come into play here. If we assume say 19-20 spell hit rating will equal 1% at level 80, a 50% increase over level 70, then thats about 120-150 necessary rating to over come. A few gear slots given over to hit/damage/haste rather then crit/damage/haste may end up working out better if 100% uptime on Elemental Oath is impossible, which I believe it probably will be.
I agree, however, rings, neck pieces, and cloaks do come into play here. If we assume say 19-20 spell hit rating will equal 1% at level 80, a 50% increase over level 70, then thats about 120-150 necessary rating to over come. A few gear slots given over to hit/damage/haste rather then crit/damage/haste may end up working out better if 100% uptime on Elemental Oath is impossible, which I believe it probably will be.
Right, but since you will be able to choose between "resto" and "dps" rings necks gems etc you will most likely be able to optimize for the perfect amount of hit (since at this time the amount of hit needed with oath is looking rather small).
There'll still be sockets, I don't belive in 100% Elem Oath uptime (the calcs were made on a 50% critt rate if I'm not misstaken) and think it's more worth to gem and use rings/necks/backs with hit to reach the cap, 7% still isn't much.
I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!
There'll still be sockets, I don't belive in 100% Elem Oath uptime (the calcs were made on a 50% critt rate if I'm not misstaken) and think it's more worth to gem and use rings/necks/backs with hit to reach the cap, 7% still isn't much.
Yes it was calculated with 50% crit but it did not include lava burst while FS was up for the guaranteed crit. At this point its still too early to tell what the ideal rotation will be and if it even includes lava burst but 40% with a lava burst crit might yeild similar results, but I admit this is purely speculation at this point. When we start to get better numbers I'll start chrunching, however at this point I figure any TC done will just be wrong in one way or another.
Now all casters want spell hit to max. It's like mantra and it's true for now. But don't think that TC can't change and evolve. You don't need 100%(99%) hit for good dps. Now it's best stat to stack until cap. But elem oath inflate value of hit rating. Maybe it's better stack some other stat maybe not but don't stuck "hit cap or die" mentality.
Now all casters want spell hit to max. It's like mantra and it's true for now. But don't think that TC can't change and evolve. You don't need 100%(99%) hit for good dps. Now it's best stat to stack until cap. But elem oath inflate value of hit rating. Maybe it's better stack some other stat maybe not but don't stuck "hit cap or die" mentality.
Pretty much all spellhit talents got nerfed, and Imp. FF got buffed (to include spellhit) however some classes gained spellhit talents aswell, and mages got that new debuff that grants hit (melee only?) aswell, it seems that they're reworking the stat, making it easier to attain from non-gear sources (perhaps harder from gear?), perhaps it's a way to "ensure" the hybrids places in the raid, without giving them any other advantages (pvp ones? Bet they don't want another heroism situtation). At the moment every caster needs hit, the only ones who doesn't are healers, they benefit from critt though so having only spellpower, critt and haste makes rather good multi-class/specc items.
Perhaps it's all a part of the item homogenization plan, perhaps they're removing the stat all in all, making resists a more common factor opening up more possibilitys for effects like the one of the [Eye of Magtheridon]? I'm just guessing here, they're probably not gonna remove the hit stat, that could be pretty stupid, but I feel a small rework is to come in place.
Last edited by Graze : 06/16/08 at 6:49 PM.
I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!
The assumption I drew from lower overall spell hit was that they were lowering the miss rate for spells. I further assumed this would be lowered to the miss rate for melee attacks, 17% vs 9%.
The equation is more complicated then that, I believe. You'll need an extra term to consider lava burst, and the uptime of Clearcasting. Clearcasting is up after a crit for a minimum of 2 seconds, with enough spell haste to drop LB down to a 1 second cast, and a maximum of 4 seconds.
Edit:
Keeps getting the dps-cycle wrong, and later on Graze has kindly posted hard data that shows better how good Elemental Oath is. In the end, I give up with this.
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The assumption I drew from lower overall spell hit was that they were lowering the miss rate for spells. I further assumed this would be lowered to the miss rate for melee attacks, 17% vs 9%.
Well, I sort of doubt it. I'm personally wondering if they will finally get rid of Spell Penetration and merge that stat with Spell Hit.
Lava Burst is just a modification on your average crit chance, all depending on how often you will be able to cast it. If it is profitable to terminate Flame Shock early, then you will launch Lava Burst roughly every 6th second. If it is more profitable to have Flame Shock running, then it is more like every 12th second.
Lava Burst has an 8s cooldown.
I've designed the basic spreadsheet and so far, the dps output looks very promising, easily compared to that of a fire mage.
2000+dmg, 40% crit, CoE on target, Shaman and mage in same group (meaning mage gets shaman's buffs), both hit capped:
Shaman, assuming FS-CL-LB-LB-LB-LaB rotation (75% of the Flame Shock's dot is used): 2308.8 dps
Mage, assuming Fireball spam (someone else uses Scorch to keep debuff up; I'm assuming Molten Fury represents 4% of total dps, though, as we know, cooldowns are usually popped in the last 20% of the fight for mage group): 2478.9
Mage, assuming Fireball spam (same as above, but no shaman in group): 2325.5
So, the dps difference between shaman and mage (in same group) is 7.37%. Shaman adds 153.4 dps to the mage, which yields up a damage difference of 6.19%. With three such mages (and a shadow priest) in group, the total shaman dps contribution is 2769 dps or 111.7% as much as the mage. Note that I am completely ignoring Heroism, hit portion of Totem of Wrath, potential drums and the offhealing + other support possibility of the elemental shaman.
In other words, I doubt we have to fear for our raid spots, provided things remain as they are. However, I do agree that there should be an incentive for dpsing, similar to enhancement, or elemental shaman might only be taken into many raids as offhealer with dps support.
Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
I wish I could have pulled out some good information from my old post, but it was just a camo-painted whine with no real substance. Well, at the time I wrote it, then we were posting our thoughts about the new talents.
Last edited by Lucitron : 11/06/08 at 5:20 AM.
Reason: This post was just a big QQ
Well, while it is not that fitting and pretty childish, I've to say that I envy WotLK Balance Druids quite heavily currently. I had hoped for a similar Nature's Fury talent in the Elemental Tree, coupled with a talent that improved Wrath of Air totem.
Yeah I've been thinking the same since I saw thier tree, they've got 2 aoe spells aswell now, if we're left with none (I honestly don't count Fire Nova, Magma nor Chain Lightning) (Okey they only got one spammable one then), together with their pretty massive support, if their dps is considerable (I haven't looked into that) they might take our spots. (Feels like I'm just QQ'ing right now)
As it looks now, we give things that doesn't quite cut it, hit can be capped (assumingly this goes for Wotlk aswell), and we're left with 3% critt, and totems other shamans can provide, I feel a flat damage modifier, (Ferocious Inspiration/Unleashed Rage style) and/or a buff to ToW (5% perhaps) is in order.
@Tufy, could you run those numbers again assuming a 100% Flame Shock uptime provided by an Enhancement Shaman, just using LaB whenever it's up, since I belive that's gonna be a more common situation. Also are these the level 80 spells? I'm confused, because I see mages those numbers already, and what about warlocks? I doubt they'll decrease in dps by gaining 10 levels. Also; no haste? Thank you for your time.
Last edited by Graze : 06/17/08 at 6:57 AM.
I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!
@Tufy, could you run those numbers again assuming a 100% Flame Shock uptime provided by an Enhancement Shaman, just using LaB whenever it's up, since I belive that's gonna be a more common situation.
Obviously, rotation 3 has best dps and also best scaling, as it has 1.5 seconds spare for haste improvement. I only included Flame Shock in rotation above because I'm not certain if we will be able to burn an enhancement shaman's flame shock. If we can, though, you can see our dps rise, given correct rotation use.
Also are these the level 80 spells? I'm confused, because I see mages those numbers already, and what about warlocks? I doubt they'll decrease in dps by gaining 10 levels. Also no haste? Thank you for your time.
Yes, those are level 80 spells, but at raw values, no raid buffs other than those that directly affect either one or the other (i.e. no misery, Judgement of Crusader, Heroism, etc., I did include CoE, but not Stormstrike), hence what seem like low numbers.
Locks will need a calculation from scratch, as it seems Blizzard is pushing for greater balance between fire and shadow spells, so shadow really doesn't gain much, but fire is boosted by quite a margin. And yes, this is at 0 haste.
NOTE: these are raw dps values. They could be greatly influenced given trinkets based on proc per crit or similar (think Lightning Capacitor).
EDIT: added LB spam value for comparison
Last edited by tufy : 06/17/08 at 7:18 AM.
Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.
In other words, I doubt we have to fear for our raid spots, provided things remain as they are. However, I do agree that there should be an incentive for dpsing, similar to enhancement, or elemental shaman might only be taken into many raids as offhealer with dps support.
It'd give you guys a position not unlike Feral Druids though, which does pretty much guarantee a raid spot for that particular spec. On top of that, just from a 'raid composition' point of view, it would make life much easier by freeing up a healer slot if you could have an Elemental Shaman offhealing on the one fight and nuking on the other. There's looking to be four 'healer' specs - either there'd have to be double specs, such as now, pushing out other classes or there would have to be a dedicated Off-Healer.
It'd give you guys a position not unlike Feral Druids though, which does pretty much guarantee a raid spot for that particular spec. On top of that, just from a 'raid composition' point of view, it would make life much easier by freeing up a healer slot if you could have an Elemental Shaman offhealing on the one fight and nuking on the other. There's looking to be four 'healer' specs - either there'd have to be double specs, such as now, pushing out other classes or there would have to be a dedicated Off-Healer.
I'm unsure if Feral Druids is a good comparison. As I gather, then the strength of the Feral Tree is that melee dps and tanking talents are condensed in one tree, ensuring that with a gear change you can relatively easy go from one role to the other. I would rather say that Elemental Shaman is the opposite of a Feral Druid. We will not need to switch gear, like a Feral Druid must do, but rather we need to switch talents.
I'm unsure if Feral Druids is a good comparison. As I gather, then the strength of the Feral Tree is that melee dps and tanking talents are condensed in one tree, ensuring that with a gear change you can relatively easy go from one role to the other. I would rather say that Elemental Shaman is the opposite of a Feral Druid. We will not need to switch gear, like a Feral Druid must do, but rather we need to switch talents.
Actually I'd call it a relatively fair comparison. If you consider tanking to be a feral druid's primary role, and DPS to be the elemental shaman's primary role, and kitty DPS or elem healing being off-duty things used only on specific fights, it makes sense. It's not like feral druids are outdamaging rogues, warlocks, mages, or fury warriors (generally speaking). Elemental shamans wouldn't be able to outheal resto shaman, holy priests, etc. That doesn't mean that they're any less useful in that role on certain fights.
Anyway, one more note concerning Lava Blast and the Flame Shock DoT. As pointed out earlier, but not explained in detail, the mechanics already exist for it to use someone else's DoT and not end up using up all of them. Swiftmend looks for a Rejuvenation or Regrowth on the target and consumes it. If there are 3 resto druids in a raid and 3 Regrowths and 3 Rejuvs on the target, it will only consume one of them. Not only that, but it does so in the most efficient way possible--it figures out which one has the shortest duration left (i.e., the least amount of healing yet to occur). There's no reason to believe that Lava Burst couldn't work the same way.
I'm unsure if Feral Druids is a good comparison. As I gather, then the strength of the Feral Tree is that melee dps and tanking talents are condensed in one tree, ensuring that with a gear change you can relatively easy go from one role to the other. I would rather say that Elemental Shaman is the opposite of a Feral Druid. We will not need to switch gear, like a Feral Druid must do, but rather we need to switch talents.
I was thinking just the same, if you're gonna offheal in a raid, you might have the gear for it - but certainly not the talents, making the below quote a full truth:
Originally Posted by Lucitron
Actually, to paint the devil on the wall, then it would not surprise me if this change could work negatively for the Elemental Shaman. You start out being a support healer in a 5-man, for then becoming the third healer in a 10-man raid and then finally you are considered to be a full-time healer in 25-man raids... whereupon there will be a certain "encouragement" that you drop your Elemental-spec and go for Restoration.
This is not what we want, sure it's nice to be able to heal (the sole reason people claim (which currently is not true) shamans/hybrids can't be as powefull as a "pure" class) once in a while, but then we're back at the pre-BC quote; "If you can heal, you heal".
One might argure, that you have an 41/0/30 shaman in a raid just for ToW and healing. This is possible(however I don't think it's pretty practical) because ToW is a pretty passive buff, whilst Unleashed Rage(which I think it one of the best buffs in the game, because it's always good, it scales, and it requires the shaman to be active in his role.) is well... more active - the elemental tree totally lacks "active" talents such as Unleashed Rage.
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
Actually I'd call it a relatively fair comparison. If you consider tanking to be a feral druid's primary role, and DPS to be the elemental shaman's primary role, and kitty DPS or elem healing being off-duty things used only on specific fights, it makes sense. It's not like feral druids are outdamaging rogues, warlocks, mages, or fury warriors (generally speaking). Elemental shamans wouldn't be able to outheal resto shaman, holy priests, etc. That doesn't mean that they're any less useful in that role on certain fights.
No it's not a good comparison, the druids needs to swap gear, something that can be done with the click of a button, the shaman needs to respecc, which is a far more complicated matter.
The shaman has the advantage in, for example a phase shift at a boss encounter, but the druid has the clear advantage in a whole dungeon. This is why we have speccs in the first place, you optimize yourself for your role.
Last edited by Graze : 06/17/08 at 9:39 AM.
I'm a shaman, a conduit of the ancient forces of nature. A master of the elements, except fire, water or earth really... nor do I have any REAL control of nature. But I do hurl bolts of lightning!
Anyway, one more note concerning Lava Blast and the Flame Shock DoT. As pointed out earlier, but not explained in detail, the mechanics already exist for it to use someone else's DoT and not end up using up all of them. Swiftmend looks for a Rejuvenation or Regrowth on the target and consumes it. If there are 3 resto druids in a raid and 3 Regrowths and 3 Rejuvs on the target, it will only consume one of them. Not only that, but it does so in the most efficient way possible--it figures out which one has the shortest duration left (i.e., the least amount of healing yet to occur). There's no reason to believe that Lava Burst couldn't work the same way.
There's also the history of conflag consuming every single immolate on a mob, which led to it only working on the warlocks own immolate. Time will tell ofcourse.
06/16/08, 10:21 AM
