Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 41

Mmootimus · 09/21/08, 10:42 PM

There is a post on the EU forums saying that the CL CD reduction has taken the place of the 10% spellpower component on SE&F.

No personal proof if this is true, but the above posters experience seems to indicate it may well be.

Someone with access to the Beta forums really needs to start making a lot of noise about this, and at least try and get a response as to whether its intended. A scaling nerf of that type would - other things being equal - be pretty much terminal for Ele.

Wildwary · 09/22/08, 6:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mmootimus

Someone with access to the Beta forums really needs to start making a lot of noise about this, and at least try and get a response as to whether its intended. A scaling nerf of that type would - other things being equal - be pretty much terminal for Ele.

Agreed, we need a response, and hopefully a clearification like the boomkinsare getting. I really hate only having accsess to european standard forums :/

ragga · 09/22/08, 6:28 AM

If you can get together an organised post about the issues and our concerns about our scaling, i'd be more than glad to post it on Beta forums.

Laupen · 09/22/08, 9:24 AM

Erm... sorry if this has been discussed before but it's literally only just come to my attention what with trying to keep up with changes to several different classes/specs at once, but as I see it, we're losing 10% hit from talents in 3.0 at the moment. This is correct and there's not uproar about it?

As I see it, with my current gear, my DPS will be destroyed and not having the forethought that Blizz might do something like this before WLK came out and I'd need to re-gear anyway, I have nothing with Hit on it in the bank. Therefore am I looking at retiring from raiding until WLK comes out and we all start getting new gear?

Hidden · 09/22/08, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Laupen

Erm... sorry if this has been discussed before but it's literally only just come to my attention what with trying to keep up with changes to several different classes/specs at once, but as I see it, we're losing 10% hit from talents in 3.0 at the moment. This is correct and there's not uproar about it?

As I see it, with my current gear, my DPS will be destroyed and not having the forethought that Blizz might do something like this before WLK came out and I'd need to re-gear anyway, I have nothing with Hit on it in the bank. Therefore am I looking at retiring from raiding until WLK comes out and we all start getting new gear?

You can simply regem your gear like most other classes will as well.

Daidalos · 09/22/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by ofancow

Storm, Earth and Fire nerfed from 25% to 10%, but hey they increased the base damage of Lava Burst to compensate ... that's a terrible, horrible, aweful tradeoff for Shaman players.

the 25% was multiplicative the 10% was additive please don't compare the two. Yes it is a loss of coef but use the units when comparing.

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

[e] From IRC
<Vontre1> 1 spd = 1.27 dps
<Vontre1> 1 crit rating = 1.1 dps
<Vontre1> 1 haste = 1.03 dps

While on my spreadsheet it's 0.832. 0.934, 2.374.

Scales differently, not better nor worse.

Hm I'll try to crunch some numbers on this. I'm not dead just been moving and without net so.. just feels like I'm dead. Hopefully I'll have solid conversions for all the rotations this weekend. I have some calcs in a beta sheet but everything gets outdated in each subsequent patch
so I just stopped for awhile.

Graze · 09/22/08, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

the 25% was multiplicative the 10% was additive please don't compare the 2\two. Yes it is a loss of coef but use the units when comparing.

No actually for a patch or two there S,E&F worked properly.

Fireball = 115% on 3 seconds = ~38% / sec
Shadowbolt = ~105% on 2.5 seconds = 42% / sec

It used to be:
LB = ~94% on 2 seconds = 47% / sec
Now it's more like ~81% on 2 secs which is ~40% / sec. A clear scaling nerf.
I can say from my experience on the beta that it feels like I hit less and less all the time.

Medicine Man · 09/22/08, 2:53 PM

These reports of the +10% coefficient on SEF being removed are very alarming. Blizzard can't possibly be thinking about leaving us with strong base spells/skills and no long term scaling talents. It doesn't take a spreadsheet to figure out what shape we'll be in half way through Wotlk if they do that.

What does SEF do in the current beta push? Still +10% on LB/CL?

Mmootimus · 09/22/08, 3:00 PM

Just tested for myself on the PTRs, we are now seemingly getting no damage boost to our Lightning Bolts from SE&F.

I am getting a coefficient of 0.713-0.714 - exactly what a 2.5sec base cast gets as standard. Would welcome someone else doing some tests on this, but I don't think my maths is that flawed.

(Vague attempt at getting this addressed - WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Two BIG nerfs/bugs for Ele - Blue please).

Scaredofbees · 09/22/08, 3:10 PM

If anyone with US beta forum access wanted to relay information there I think the Mmootimus post is a good start as stated a few posts ago.

Graze · 09/22/08, 3:50 PM

I can also confirm it now, the coef from S,E&F is gone.

EDIT: I just now noticed how the tooltip numbers on LB just changed when speccing into S,E&F - just like it does when speccin into Concussion. This my good gentlemen, is a bug.

EDIT2: Sorry no that's a false alarm, it doesn't increase the base damage either. I'm confused.
I've also posted about this on the Beta EU forums:
WotLK Beta (EU-English) Forums -> ATTN: The Complete Lack of Scaling

ofancow · 09/22/08, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by ofancow

A critical thing that people are not talking about, is the lack of scaling for Elemental damage spells.

The scaling talents we've had have been nerfed or removed, and the compensations we've been given were more powerful base spells.

That works only at the gearing point Blizzard is testing us at. Which will take what, 4-6 months after the game hits retail for the top raiders to have farmed out.

And after that, what about elemental shaman in gear that comes out down the road? Powerful Base spell + poor scaling = will be left behind by other classes.

It seems to me that this topic is not being discussed much at all.

Storm, Earth and Fire nerfed from 25% to 10%, but hey they increased the base damage of Lava Burst to compensate ... that's a terrible, horrible, aweful tradeoff for Shaman players.

As gear progresses, Shaman will fall behind in PvE and PvP due to the current lack of scaling. Blizzard certainly won't be releasing a new rank of damage spells every new content patch.

With Storm, Earth and Fire sclaing completely removed, that goes from 25% to 0%.

As someone already stated, there is no need to do a spreadsheet to know that 0% scaling = 0% scaling, and being locked into high base damage spells with no scaling will flat-line the class midway through the expansion.

Now more than ever, people need to speak up on the beta forums.* WotLK ships in 6 weeks, the PTR probably goes live within 2 weeks -- that means we effectively have 2-4 weeks to get this sorted out before we are locked into a bad set of talents for 2 years.

*constructively speak up, that is .. shaman spells need a way to scale with damage beyond their current base abilities.

Gelanin · 09/22/08, 5:26 PM

PTR is already up i think

Wildwary · 09/22/08, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Graze

I can also confirm it now, the coef from S,E&F is gone.

EDIT: I just now noticed how the tooltip numbers on LB just changed when speccing into S,E&F - just like it does when speccin into Concussion. This my good gentlemen, is a bug.

EDIT2: Sorry no that's a false alarm, it doesn't increase the base damage either. I'm confused.
I've also posted about this on the Beta EU forums:
WotLK Beta (EU-English) Forums -> ATTN: The Complete Lack of Scaling

We need this post on the US beta forums as well. That place seems to be the only place where there are actual blue responses with meaning. I'm really hoping for some "intention" post like the druid are getting now aswell.

Scaredofbees · 09/22/08, 7:04 PM

I've made a post in the US Beta forums that is really just a rant on the SE&F change that I think everyone shares and where the spec is going towards the expansion release. If anyone wants me to edit something in I will as kind of an indirect post from EJ direct to the Beta forums.

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [Elemental] SE&F Change and Scaling Concerns

jondolar · 09/22/08, 11:04 PM

Anyone else notice the elemental oath nerf?

Current tooltip:

Your spell critical strikes grant your party or raid members within 100 yards Elemental Oath, increasing spell critical strike chance by 5%. Lasts 15 sec.

Thats for 2 points.

Previous version was reduce the cost of spells and abilities by your party by 2% stacking up to 3 times and increasing critical strike dmg of your party by 2%.

So we used to get 6% to critical strike damage and 6 % less mana/ability costs to the entire party.

Now we get 5% to spell crit change. not dmg.

• Juice · 09/22/08, 11:08 PM

Yea that changed a month ago

Spectravita · 09/23/08, 4:31 AM

anyone else notice a stealth increase to all shock ranges? My earth shock is 30 yards (talented SEnF), flame shock is 40 yards (talented LavaFlows), and frost/wind shock is 25 yards. Completely untalented all shocks are 25 yards. This is on the PTR with version 8970.

Graze · 09/23/08, 5:04 AM

Try not using PVP gloves.

Lucitron · 09/23/08, 10:25 AM

Ok, we have a rumour that SEF was changed to reduce the cooldown of CL with 0.5 sec per point, which got me wondering what the relative strength of such talent would be? How big dps boost is it to be able to cast a few more CL during a boss fight? Will we scale better thanks to this?

Since there was no previous calculations, I decided to make my own rough calculation. For simplicity sake I decided to just examine the ratio between a regular CL-LB cycle and one with reduced cooldown. While this TBC dps-cycle is not representative of the new dps cycle for WotLK, with Flame Shock and Lava Burst, I felt it was a justified simplification since I wagered it would exaggerate and enhance the ratio, giving sort of a "max value" to how powerful such talent would be. Further, I decided to just look on 4 talent points, i.e. the relative power between 2xLB+CL and 3xLB+CL. Finally, I decided to totally skip the base damage and just check the scaling.

In the end I got the following formula:

dps(2LB+CL) / dps(3LB+CL) = ((2*2.5 + 2) /(2*2+1.5)) / ((3*2.5 + 2) /(3*2+1.5)) = 52.5 / 52.25 = (roughly) = 1.005

So for 4 talent points we would gain 0.5% more dps, and that is if we calculate it all very favourable. In reality the dps-boost should be far less than that.

Daidalos · 09/23/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lucitron

Ok, we have a rumour that SEF was changed to reduce the cooldown of CL with 0.5 sec per point, which got me wondering what the relative strength of such talent would be? How big dps boost is it to be able to cast a few more CL during a boss fight? Will we scale better thanks to this?

Since there was no previous calculations, I decided to make my own rough calculation. For simplicity sake I decided to just examine the ratio between a regular CL-LB cycle and one with reduced cooldown. While this TBC dps-cycle is not representative of the new dps cycle for WotLK, with Flame Shock and Lava Burst, I felt it was a justified simplification since I wagered it would exaggerate and enhance the ratio, giving sort of a "max value" to how powerful such talent would be. Further, I decided to just look on 4 talent points, i.e. the relative power between 2xLB+CL and 3xLB+CL. Finally, I decided to totally skip the base damage and just check the scaling.

In the end I got the following formula:

dps(2LB+CL) / dps(3LB+CL) = ((2*2.5 + 2) /(2*2+1.5)) / ((3*2.5 + 2) /(3*2+1.5)) = 52.5 / 52.25 = (roughly) = 1.005

So for 4 talent points we would gain 0.5% more dps, and that is if we calculate it all very favourable. In reality the dps-boost should be far less than that.

I really don't see the cooldown reduction being a single target boost of any significance I see it more as a "give ele shaman some sort of aoe" stop gap. In small group aoe shaman do quite well its only in larger aoe groups where we really don't have much to offer.

Darian_TruBlade · 09/23/08, 12:42 PM

Ideally an Elemental Shaman spamming CL while managing Fire Nova/Magma Totem would be competitive AoE. It's not that difficult to map out, as you effectively have a set amount of damage with CL (it doesn't scale past the third or fourth mob) and scaling damage from the totem.

The issue is more the fire and forget nature of the totems. I don't think Blizzard wants us to be able to do equivalent AoE damage by dropping a totem and sitting on our thumbs.

Mmootimus · 09/23/08, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lucitron

Ok, we have a rumour that SEF was changed to reduce the cooldown of CL with 0.5 sec per point, which got me wondering what the relative strength of such talent would be? How big dps boost is it to be able to cast a few more CL during a boss fight? Will we scale better thanks to this?

Since there was no previous calculations, I decided to make my own rough calculation. For simplicity sake I decided to just examine the ratio between a regular CL-LB cycle and one with reduced cooldown. While this TBC dps-cycle is not representative of the new dps cycle for WotLK, with Flame Shock and Lava Burst, I felt it was a justified simplification since I wagered it would exaggerate and enhance the ratio, giving sort of a "max value" to how powerful such talent would be. Further, I decided to just look on 4 talent points, i.e. the relative power between 2xLB+CL and 3xLB+CL. Finally, I decided to totally skip the base damage and just check the scaling.

In the end I got the following formula:

dps(2LB+CL) / dps(3LB+CL) = ((2*2.5 + 2) /(2*2+1.5)) / ((3*2.5 + 2) /(3*2+1.5)) = 52.5 / 52.25 = (roughly) = 1.005

So for 4 talent points we would gain 0.5% more dps, and that is if we calculate it all very favourable. In reality the dps-boost should be far less than that.

Firstly, its not a rumour, its a fact. The CL CD change is starting at you on the tooltip, and anyone with PTR/Beta access, 15 minutes to spare and some basic maths can prove the loss of coefficient bonus for themselves. What we don't know is if its intended - there is a good chance its a bug, and will be changed back, but right now, its reality.

I really can't see the loss of the coefficient bonus as being in any way made up for by a reduced CD on CL. Even if its is, I imagine CL will not be usable in an Ele PVE rotation due to its mana cost anyway.

B-Dawg · 09/23/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mmootimus

I really can't see the loss of the coefficient bonus as being in any way made up for by a reduced CD on CL. Even if its is, I imagine CL will not be usable in an Ele PVE rotation due to its mana cost anyway.

Exactly my thoughts. We've been getting slapped with coefficient nerfs left and right, so I don't doubt this being a bug or not intended. Also, a while back Convection was said to have been changed to a 3 pt. talent, but it has remained a 5 pt. talent in all the talent calculators through all the new builds. I haven't seen any blue post stating it was changed back, so what do people make of this? Here is my build, taking into account the 3pt. Convection change.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I also have a question (or two) regarding haste, crit, and our rotations. I've been reading this thread but it's hard to keep up with all of it, especially since I haven't been reading it on a daily basis. Are we continuing to stack haste in WoTLK in lieu of Crit? I understand spell dmg is the best stat for us, but I was just reading a post Bink made showing numbers and he was giving Crit a higher dps value per point than haste. And, with the FS, 4 LB, LvB, rotation (the rotation which yields the highest dps, from what I've read), how many ticks of FS are we getting in after the 4th LB?

Papaduval · 09/24/08, 6:49 AM

Arguably, with the coefficient reduction, haste becomes even more valuable vs spellpower or crit - we get high base dmg and low correlation with increased spellpower - so the more spells we can pump out in a specific time, the better.

Just going off gut instinct (and based on the large amount of raw crit% we can get from talents/glyphs before we even start on eq, i'd probably rate haste as the most valuable, with crit and spellpower ranking fairly close together (no doubt someone with the time to do the maths will confirm or deny this, but just based on the latest changes, it seems this way)