I don't see how waiting for a lightning overload proc, firing your auto-crit lava burst, and then earth shock isn't significant burst damage. Higher health values don't make burst damage less important, they just make healing more viable and fights last longer but having the ability to concentrate your damage in a shorter frame of time is just as valuable. NS is a very small amount of burst damage by bringing two wraths closer together but does not actually increase DPS in that time frame as wrath is GCD locked. NS does not work on Starfire so it cannot function like a PoM Pyro (To be honest you'd be hearing complaints about being two shot by balance druids if this worked, and it would taken).

Yes, this is unfounded, because a) since the stormstrike change we are no longer OP with an Enh shaman, nor weak without one, and b) improved scorch adds 10% spell crit as a debuff on the target, or are you referring to the 15% fire damage bonus that it used to be? I find it hard to believe that Blizzard would consider us "underpowered" at the moment while still including a debuff that was removed many weeks ago.

This line of discussion really has nothing to do with spell scaling. And your assumptions are completely wrong and show a fundamental lack of understanding of how Shaman spells work. For instance, you can't "fire off" a Flame Shock > Lava Burst > Earth Shock > Lightning Overload combo. At all.

And just the Flame Shock + Lava Burst rotation takes more time to cast than a single Starfire -- and does less damage. The rotation only becomes DPS net positive if you let the Flame Shock tick out for 9+ seconds. That's hardly burst.

So please stick to the topic. If you want to rant about Balance Druids not having enough burst damage in your unsubstantiated opinion, I am sure there is a thread dealing with Balance Druids somewhere.

edit: same goes for the statement below me. Why not throw in instant chain lightnings? Because Chain Lightning isn't an instant cast spell. Why not spam instant-cast Mind Blasts at people every 1 second, is just as legitimate a question. Stick to the topic at hand people -- Elemental Shaman spell scaling. It has nothing to do with your Balance Druid or your Shadow Priest.

I am not going to go into it because it was basically an off-topic non-fact-based email about how underpowered Balance Druids are at level 70 compared to Elemental Shaman. Off topic and now off my radar. He had absolutely nothing to say to my listing of Elemental Shaman talents and their scaling effects, so the conversation is over as far as I am concerned.

Of course Flameshock duration is longer than Shock cooldown. It's quite possible to hit someone with Flameshock wait for the shock cooldown then go with an auto crit Lightning Bolt followed by Lava Burst followed by Earth Shock. And then why not throw an instant Chain Lightning in as well?

The Lightning Bolt travels slowly, the Lava Burst fast, the Earth Shock is instant and 1.5 later an instant Chain-Lightning (or another Lightning Bolt) rolls in. From when the first spell hits to the last it's no longer than 3 seconds.

Yes, it uses cooldowns, but it looks like substantial burst to me.

Then why did you make a laundry list of inaccurate comparisons between elemental shaman and balance druid talent trees? How in the world is it related to elemental shaman scaling at all? My points regarding burst was entirely related to the side discussion of potential reasons as to why there's been some difficulty getting elemental shaman scaling up to par, nothing more. I'm sorry you don't see my point, but it surely is relevant to a discussion about possible barriers to lightning bolt scaling buffs.

I PM'd you some changes you can make to your comparison post that I hope you'll do to show you're genuinely concerned about accuracy.

I don't understand your attitude when I'm just trying to have some genuine conversation on the potential reasons lightning bolt scaling not only hasn't been buffed, but has been reduced since the start of the beta. Being aggressive and shooting down other speculation because it doesn't match your own isn't helpful. I, nor anyone else, is out to 'get' your chosen playstyle.

Now I'm genuinely curious, what are these reasons in your opinion?

And here's the point that you are missing: there isn't really anything in our power to do what you're wanting to do. We're bug reporters and functionality testers, no more. Once Blizzard know there is an issue with something (and they do), we have to wait to see what they do about it.

It's better to have tried and failed than to not have tried at all

What you seem to be missing is that by testing actual DPS, providing actual results, comparing actual talent scaling -- instead of pure theory-crafting -- we are filling the role of functionality testers.

Blizzards Elemental spreadsheet is, by their own reports, broken. By providing actual data to report on how the talents are actually functioning, we provide Blizzard with something to check against their theory-crafting. It may not make a difference, but it is certainly preferable to the bitter sarcasm and total lack of useful information some on this forum have resorted to. And who knows, maybe it will make a difference.

If you want to test some scaling then get a few different casters to do a dps test for a set number of minutes in quest gear. Then have them repeat it with significantly better gear.

If the absolute elemental dps increase for a comparable change in gear is smaller then there's a scaling problem.

But then, why bother? Blizzard is undoubtedly fully aware of how dps scales with gear and stats for the different classes.

First off, Ofancow has had some great math and great posts thank you for your great work.

Now that PvP is up on the PTR I got to give thunderstorm a good go (This isn't a PvP thread and this isn't a PvP comment, just a segue to a suggestion for improvement). The knock back is "neat" but with just a little lag it is ineffective at stopping casts, allowing escape or a "setup move". For me it failed at PvP utility, just novelty.

So what about pve? As a 51 point talent that regens 5% mana (540 mana for me at a little over 10k mana - which is 60 mp5) and does 1350 damage (1100 SD in pvp gear). With its current setup it is only situational in pve for damage and works like a mana shield (uses a GCD but cant proc mana orbs).

The math Ofancow has shown ele needs a boost to damage upwards of 20%, which most importantly, can scale appropriately.

With time running out it seems like we should get some focus on improving Thunderstorm. For PvP I would like to see it set up attacks or heals better than it does WHICH goes perfect with boosting damage for PvE.

Perhaps on use we gain 50% spell haste for 10sec, gain a free instant cast (would need a fasters CD for this to ad significant damage which would also help in PvP), or allow Thunderstorm be a targeted spell that stuns and does a knock back but centered on a target rather than the shaman.

With time running out I think fixing a 1 talent point ability can ad some fun and power up the shaman to a competitive level again.

Hey all. I'm working on getting Rawr updated for WoW 3.0, which is approaching way too quickly. Elemental is one of the few specs that Rawr doesn't support yet, and nobody is actively working on a Rawr model for it. Now would be a great time to start on one, to be able to start from scratch with the new mechanics in 3.0. If anyone would like to help out with this, please PM me. You'll need to have experience with C# development, and an understanding of the Elemental mechanics as they have been changed in WoW 3.0. I'll be available all the time to help with the development and questions about Rawr's framework, etc.

For those who aren't familiar with it, Rawr is a user-friendly theorycrafting tool, designed to help people choose gear/talents/enchants/buffs/etc, and see the effects of changes to them. It's used by tens of thousands of WoW players, and currently supports almost all classes/specs. Further info on Rawr, the latest version, and our latest source code (it's open source) can be found at Rawr. Thanks!

I did some testings on Dr. Bumm today and I was really disappointed in what way Blizzard "improved" elemental.

Being level 70 I only used LB spam. Resulting in roughly 1500 dps soloing on live.
With the same gear but +10% from CoE + 13% from balance druid + 10% crit from scorch I did between 1600 and 1700 dps on PTR. It was a bit laggier on PTR.

Thats really poor comparing it to the DPS boost I get with my enhancement gear going from ~1200 up to ~1800.

I wanted to spec to elemental with the patch but if its still looking like this when it hits live I'm going to stay enhancement another few weeks or months or how long it will take to get it right.

True, although if you remember I've put some fairly detailed posts into the beta forum myself.
Really? What math? All I've seen is comparatives between the "scaling" talents Moonkin have, and those of our own. In fact, I haven't really seen much math around here at all recently, mostly just people whining about the lack of scaling/propper dps/etc.

Yes, we know that Elemental is due to get another pass, yes we know our dps is bad at the moment, but saying that we need 20% more on an arbitrary figure to get to some unknown point has nothing to do with math at all. Heck, if people had done 5 minutes of work they'd see that CL scales badly enough that once you have ~2000 spellpower it has the same dps as Lightning Bolt (and that's with talents as they are at the moment), but still people suggest it's a viable spell for rotations at 80.

Instead of spending so much time making bitter posts, read the last 4-5 pages. I posted a several-million-damage test and it's results, putting several "commonly" looked at elemental talent builds, both on the PTR and on Beta, through the wringer (so to speak). I know that it isn't the theory-crafting that you enjoy, and is in fact actual hard data, but it is worth a read.

I do hope you actually spend the time to learn the facts about Elemental Shaman at 80. They diverge greatly from your theory-craft models that you use at your current level 73 (or whatever level you are now in beta).

Then please, tell me how they differ.

Do we know we're in for another pass? That was said 3 updates ago and there was no change whatsoever yet. Except Fire Nova nerf, of course.

The 20% number may seem arbitrary, but it's actually based on another thread, namely mage one, specifically this post:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t30655-m...04/#post920120

I don't fully trust these rankings, so I'm giving it a 5% error margin. Sadly, since I'm in USA until wednesday, I can't check the numbers myself, thus theorycrafting + what others post is my best bet. And looking at the graph, top mage - 5% error margin - 10% dps = 4011. That's where Balance Druid and Elemental shaman should be. In other words, according to the graph, we're missing 1000 dps or flat out 25% dps.

Btw., as much as my spreadsheets show, FS-CL-3LB-LvB wins over FS-4LB-LvB almost every time. CL is falling behind LB around 200 damage per bolt, but cast time usually solves the issue. The only time they come dangerously close is around 15% haste on gear, when first rotation already drops to three FS ticks, while second still has four. I can post full calculations up if you want to and we'll see where our difference comes from.

How are you doing your LB & CL calculations, and how much spellpower are you testing with?
May be an idea to put up your spreadsheet somewhere and I'll have a look.

2000 spellpower (+ToW & Flametongue for a total of 2636 spellpower, with additional 182 spellpower from Totem of Hex for CL and LB), 22% crit on gear (+13% to all spells & 5% to lightning spells), 15% haste on gear (+5% from WoAT), crit damage meta gem.

Calculations used are:

LB: (((765+(LB spellpower*(2.5/3.5)))*1.05)*((1-crit modifier)+(crit modifier*2.09))*1.1)/(2/(1+haste modifier))

CL: (((1042+(CL spellpower*(2/3.5)))*1.05)*((1-crit modifier)+(crit modifier*2.09))*1.1)/(1.5/(1+haste modifier))

Obviously, additional raid modifiers are added as needed (such as 10% additional crit from Imp. Scorch/Winter's Chill, 13% extra damage from CoE or similar and so on), but they don't really change the base calculation much, as they affect both of them roughly equally.

Here is a link with a full Output for Simcraft at the latest patch:
SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code
Bear in mind that mage DPS is likely 12% too high across the board in the sim due to Torment the Weak not properly triggering on bosses (and likely not being intended to trigger either).

The Shaman is only using LB/CL/LvB. I can talk to Deadmon to modify the castsequence, but would need some more info:
Coefficient confirm on LB/CL/LvB. Coefficients for FS DD and FS DoT.
Cooldowns between spells, and which spells share cooldowns (Shocks and LvB do, no)?
Crit damage of Lava Burst with (or without) CSD fully talented.
A spec (mmo-champion link).
Any glyphs that matter.

A cast sequence/priority list. Should be:
FS - then cast CL (if off cooldown) and LB - LvB when you cut off one tick.

With that info, we should be able to sim Elemental Shaman better.


As for scaling:
Assuming a Naxx-10 kit gemmed, enchanted, flasked, and fully raid buffed, how much DPS do you gain per point of spell damage.
It's been a few patches since I calculated that for mages, but it's around +120 DPS from +100 spell damage for fire mages.
That's also in the last link of my signature. Arcane is completely outdated though.

Flame Shock > Chain Lightning > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lightning Bolt > Lava Burst; repeat.
LB coef is 2.5/3.5 = 0.7142; CL coef is 2/3.5 = 0.5714; LvB coef is 2/3.5 = 0.5714
Flame Shock Direct Damage coef is 21%, Flame Shock DoT coef is 39% spread out over 4 ticks (note: the above spell rotation ensures only 3 ticks will ever actually occur per rotation)
None of the spells in the rotation share a cooldown
.....
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...00000000000000
Flametongue weapon glyph grants 2% spell critical

That's all I can think of. I haven't tested Lava Burst with a CSD so I can't comment on it.


I just wanted to point out that a 1000 DPS increase from 3000 DPS means that Elemental Shaman need a 33% increase in DPS to break even with Balance Druids and come within the 5-10% range of other casters. Not 15% or 20% or 25%. People tend to base their % statements off the top number, but that is wrong. A 25% increase to 3000 DPS would only be 3750 DPS, far short of the 4000+ mark needed. Conversely, where the 25% number comes into play is, Blizzard would have to tone Balance Druid DPS down by 25% for it to come down to the level of an Elemental Shaman.

Lightning Bolt r14
715 - 815 damage
2 second cast time
2.5/3.5 scaling coefficient * 2000 spell power = 1428.5

(715+815)/2 = 765+1428.5 = 2193.5/2 = 1096.7 DPS

Chain Lightning r8
973 - 1111 damage
1.5 second cast time
2/3.5 scaling coefficient * 2000 spell power = 1142.9

(973+1111)/2 = 1042+1142.9 = 2184.9/1.5 = 1456.6


Tufy was correct, Binkenstein, and you were off by more than 32%. Using Chain Lightning in a rotation, even on a single target, at level 80 and with 2000 spell power, will be a DPS benefit.

The only thing really stopping CL from being viable in a rotation is it's huge mana cost (26% of base mana).

Hmmm, those numbers look right, so I'm not sure where I went wrong (that spreadsheet is at work).

Co-effs:
LB: 2.5/3.5 = 0.714
CL: 2/3.5 = 0.571
LvB: 2/3.5 = 0.571
FS DD: (1.5/3.5) * 500/(500+556) = 0.203
FS DoT: (12/15) * 556/(500+556) = 0.421