Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 50

erragal · 10/08/08, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

To me that more seems to indicate that some other classes are kind of messed up.

Can someone explain how the balance druid and arms warrior high on those meters had 60%+ crit rates over the entire fight? The arms warrior crit 62% of his white hits, 54% of his executes, etc....

Buffed crit rates for Balance druids are going to be closing in on at least 50% as you hit the T7 gear level. If you utilize the starfire buff of eclipse they'll be even higher (But that part of the talent has been nerfed to oblivion for PVE purposes). I was under the impression fire mages were also approaching that critical rate in T7 gear as well. I don't see why elemental shaman won't as well, they have 3% more base spell critical chance from talents than the balance tree has and access to the same buffs/debuff. Was that druid using 4 piece T7? That's also 5% spell critical for his nukes.

Every caster has Imp Scorch (10% Spell Crit), Moonkin Aura/Elemental Oath (5% spell crit), Totem of Wrath/Ret Pally (3% all crit). I can't check the log, but it's plausible the moonkin was receiving Focus Magic from a mage which is a single target 3% spell critical buff that gives the mage 3% spell crit for a duration when the target crits on a spell. So a single individual can have 21% spell crit with no talents or gear at all.

Graze · 10/08/08, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

This is how I did Lightning Overload:
-Can proc on miss.
-50% damage penalty is for base damage.
-Can proc from another LO.
-LO spell misses, crits etc. independently from the base spell it procced from.

Please, give me some feedback.

This is not how LO works. the 50% penalty is for base+scaling.
LO cannot procc from other LOs or TLC charges.

tufy · 10/08/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Juice

Ghostcrawler posted a follow up to the post from earlier today:

Update on Lava Burst.

We ended up buffing the damage by about 10%. You should now have a lot motivation to use it and Flame Shock once you hit level 75. Lightning Bolt isn't going anywhere so you still have your old standby, particularly for 3.0.2 and until you gain a few levels.

This won't change a thing. Something I've been sketching up on the plane today (hey, 15 hour flight sucks if you have nothing to do :p):

1. 10% lb and possibly cl spellpower increase from lightning mastery
2. Lava Flows bonus upped to 15% per talent point, giving Lava Burst a total of 245 spell crit damage (same as fire mages)
3. SEF back to Flame Shock dot 100% buff and Chain Lightning down to 0s CD total (semi AoE)
4. Flametongue based on intellect or AP, whichever is highest. Both numbers should be set for expected intellect values of tier 8 shaman to be equal to current flametongue (meaning less at lower gear bonus, more at higher gear bonus, scaling with gear)
5. ToW similar to Demonic Pact, scales with shaman's spellpower
6. Totems divided into buffs and active abilities. Buffs (let's call them charms) working equal to other classes' buffs, totem working as today, limited to short term effects (fire nova, earthbind, grounding, etc.)

Points 1-4 would scale damage (I think the numbers seem reasonable, but again, I wrote them on my iphone on a plane, so they're nowhere near tested), point 5 would scale ToW (talented buff), point 6 solves buffing system based on totems.

Erdluf · 10/08/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Can someone explain how the balance druid ... high on those meters had 60%+ crit rates over the entire fight?

Potential Starfire crit buffs (over and above gear and consumables) for Moonkin:

Raid:
Scorch 10%
ToW 3%

Balance talents:
Improved Insect Swarm 3%
Moonkin Form 5%
Nature's Majesty 4%
Improved Faerie Fire 3%
Eclipse 15% (15s duration, 30s cooldown, 60% chance to proc on Wrath crit)

Blue has announced that Eclipse will be changed to 30% crit (10s duration, 40s cooldown, 60% chance to proc ...).

I did see one Moonkin with 60% SF crits and no Wrath casts (= no Eclipse buff), so he either had gear with a lot of crit, got very lucky, or had some other buf that I don't know about.

In BC, the only crit talents are Moonkin Form and Nature's Majesty (under a different name).

Roywyn · 10/08/08, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

To me that more seems to indicate that some other classes are kind of messed up.

Can someone explain how the balance druid and arms warrior high on those meters had 60%+ crit rates over the entire fight? The arms warrior crit 62% of his white hits, 54% of his executes, etc....

Assuming a low 15% generic paperdoll crit chance from intellect/crit rating, you add:
3% Totem of Wrath, 5% Moonkin Aura, 10% Scorch from raid buffs, talents add 4% Majesty, 3% Imp. Faerie Fire, 3% Imp. Insect Swarm, 6% Eclipse (averaged).
That's 18% from debuffs, 16% from talents, for 49% crit chance total.

That's with as little as 15% paperdoll crit from gear, which is very conservative to start with.
Casters get a lot of crit, so geared casters can get 60% crit throughout a fight with a bit of luck.
Fire mages are in a similar boat with 19% crit from personal abilities/talents/glyphs.

Ocyr · 10/08/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

This is how I did Lightning Overload:
-Can proc on miss.

YES.

-50% damage penalty is for base damage.

NO. The penalty is a flat 50% tax on all damage, including the damage derived from gearing and buffs.

-Can proc from another LO.

NO. This has been disproven many, many times.

-LO spell misses, crits etc. independently from the base spell it procced from.

YES.

dedmonwakeen · 10/08/08, 5:12 PM

If Drain Soul wasn't OP.............

If Torment the Weak wasn't OP...........

If Glyph of Chain Lightning made all the arcs of CL hit the main target..........

Perhaps a bit over the top.... but CL is cooldown limited so Haste scaling is severely impacted.....

Full config: (scroll to find Shaman profile)

#
# Globals
#

# patch level of 3.0.0 or later implies Wrath of the Lich King
patch=3.0.0

# Lag is a random value centered on the value below with a range of +/- 0.05 seconds
lag=0.2

# Boss Level
target_level=83

# One of "max_time" (fight time in seconds) or "target_health" must be specified.
# When "max_time" is used, the health of the target will be infered half-way through simulation.
max_time=300

# While min/max damage effects (such as weapons and direct damage spells) are averaged out, spell event
# and attack table mechanics are still random.  In order to get a trustworthy answer from the simulator,
# one must have a very long fight or iterate a short fight many, many times.  Given the constraints of
# mana, iterating a short fight is often more realistic.
iterations=1000

# For convenience it is possible to tell the simulator that a specific resource (mana, rage, etc)
# will never run out if you do not wish to configure raid/consumable buff scenarios to ensure sufficient
# resource replenishment.
infinite_mana=0

# WotLK has regen ticks occuring every 0.1sec.  Modeling this exactly produces a ton of churn in the
# event list and tons of unnecessary calculations.  A value of 1.0 is not perfect, but the performance
# improvement is worth the slight inaccuracy.
regen_periodicity=1.0

# Some WotLK beta patches have included a Potion Sickness debuff that only lows one potion consumed per combat.
potion_sickness=1

# Since support for the Warrior class does not yet exist, one can infer a Sunder Armor debuff by 
# artificially setting a low target armor value.  I'm really not sure what to put here.  I imagine
# that WotLK bosses will have armor close to 10k......  (5x Sunder is 3600 penetration in WotLK)
target_armor=6400

# Since support for the Paladin class does not yet exist, one can specify target debuffs (such as
# Judgement of Wisdom) and player buffs (such as Blessing of Wisdom and Sanctified Retribution) as parameters.
# Both blessing_of_wisdom=1 and sanctified_retribution=1 would be included in each player section as appropriate.
judgement_of_wisdom=1

#
# Shadow Priest
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=6000" option to shadow_fiend represents the amount below max mana required to trigger
#
priest=Priest_Shadow
level=80
talents=http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbzhZZG0fVRfzfiqfzAo
actions=flask,type=pure_death/wizard_oil/inner_fire/shadow_form/mana_potion,trigger=3500/shadow_fiend,trigger=6000/dispersion/shadow_word_pain,shadow_weaving_wait=1/mind_blast/devouring_plague/vampiric_touch/shadow_word_death/mind_flay
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
glyph_shadow_word_death=1
pet=shadow_fiend
main_hand=beast,damage=110,speed=1.5,school=shadow
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

mage=Mage_Arcane
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=00550300120030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000230005031100330150323000515321
actions=flask,type=blinding_light/wizard_oil/molten_armor/focus_magic,target=Mage_Fire/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=3500/evocation,trigger=10000/arcane_missiles,barrage=1/presence_of_mind,pyroblast/arcane_barrage/fire_ball
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Glyphs
glyph_fire_ball=1
glyph_molten_armor=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Mage_Fire
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_gem and mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=10000" option to evocation represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (3) Focus Magic from raid dps standpoint is better than Icy Veins, but Fire Mages cannot live without Frost Channeling due to mana constraints.
#
mage=Mage_Fire
level=80
# We will let the poor Frost Mage raid-slave keep up the Improved Scorch debuff
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=03550300120033300531203003500000000000000000000000000000230005031100330000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/wizard_oil/arcane_brilliance/molten_armor/focus_magic,target=Mage_Frost/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=3500/evocation,trigger=10000/combustion/pyroblast,hot_streak=1/fire_ball
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Glyphs
glyph_fire_ball=1
glyph_molten_armor=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Mage_Frost
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_gem and mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=10000" option to evocation represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (3) The "frozen=1" option to ice_lance means that it will only be cast if the target is frozen (via winters_grasp) or virtually frozen (via fingers_of_frost)
# (4) The "fb_priority=1" option to ice_lance means that it will only be cast if the frozen debuff/buff will end before a frost_bolt could be cast
#
mage=Mage_Frost
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=00000000000000000000000000000533030310233100230052231350230005031100030000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/wizard_oil/arcane_brilliance/molten_armor/focus_magic,target=Mage_Arcane/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=2500/ice_lance,frozen=1,fb_priority=1/evocation,trigger=10000/water_elemental/icy_veins/cold_snap/fire_ball,brain_freeze=1/frost_bolt
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Glyphs
glyph_molten_armor=1
glyph_frost_bolt=1
glyph_water_elemental=1
pet=water_elemental
actions=water_bolt
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Balance Druid
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "eclipse=trigger" option to wrath will make sure that it is only used to trigger the Eclipse talent
#     which means it will only be used after the cooldown is ready and the effect has not yet proc'd.
#
druid=Druid_Balance
level=80
# Vanilla build, including Resto talents
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000205003312000000000000000005032003025301305213305300051
# Provided JoW is available and Treants are viable in the encounter
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005532203125331335213305311051
actions=flask,type=blinding_light/wizard_oil/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion,trigger=3500/innervate/faerie_fire/treants/moonfire/insect_swarm/wrath,eclipse=trigger/starfire
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# The starfire glyph is coded with starfire refreshing moonfire, not starfall.
glyph_moonfire=1
glyph_starfire=1
glyph_insect_swarm=1
# Three Treants modeled as one pet that hits 3x hard
pet=treants
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Elemental Shaman
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1" option to lava_burst will prevent it from being called until there is only one tick remaining on Flame Shock
#
shaman=Shaman_Elemental
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman=353005150021535102501350000000000000000000000000003050500300000000000000000000
actions=flametongue_weapon,weapon=main/mana_potion,trigger=3500/mana_spring_totem/totem_of_wrath/wrath_of_air_totem/elemental_mastery/flame_shock/lava_burst,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1/bloodlust,target_pct=35/chain_lightning/lightning_bolt
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=311
gear_mp5=50
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
glyph_flametongue_weapon=1
glyph_totem_of_wrath=1
glyph_lightning_bolt=1
glyph_chain_lightning=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1


#
# Enhancement Shaman
#
# Gear based upon: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t31667-enhancement_shaman_enhsim_dps_simulator/p15/#post910639
#
# (1) The "weapon=main" option to windfury_weapon puts the enchant only on the main-hand weapon
# (2) The "weapon=off" option to flametongue_weapon puts the enchant only on the off-hand weapon
# (3) The "flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=4" option to lava_burst will prevent it from being called until there are four or less ticks remaining on Flame Shock.
# (4) The "maelstrom=5" option to lightning_bolt/lava_burst means that LB/LvB will only be executed when there is a 5-stack of Maelstrom Weapon,
#     making the LB/LvB cast instant which prevents auto_attack resets.
# (5) The tool accepts separate value for hit/crit even though WotLK has merged them.
#
shaman=Shaman_Enhancement
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?shaman=052030150000000000000000000000000000000000000000003020502300502135331131231051
actions=flask,type=relentless_assault/windfury_weapon,weapon=main/flametongue_weapon,weapon=off/auto_attack/flame_shock/lava_burst,maelstrom=5,flame_shock=1,max_ticks_consumed=1/stormstrike/strength_of_earth_totem/windfury_totem/shamanistic_rage/spirit_wolf/earth_shock/lava_lash/searing_totem/lightning_shield/bloodlust,target_pct=35
gear_agility=386
gear_stamina=800
gear_intellect=280
gear_attack_power=2000
gear_attack_expertise_rating=185
gear_attack_penetration=0
gear_spell_power=0
gear_hit_rating=280
gear_crit_rating=445
gear_haste_rating=75
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Hateful Gladiator Weapons
main_hand=mace,damage=373,speed=2.6,enchant=mongoose
#off_hand=dagger,damage=258,speed=1.8,enchant=executioner
off_hand=mace,damage=373,speed=2.6,enchant=executioner
# Glyphs
glyph_earth_shock=0
glyph_strength_of_earth=1
glyph_windfury_weapon=1
glyph_stormstrike=1
glyph_lightning_shield=1
# Pets
pet=spirit_wolf
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

# Supported Warlock Glyphs
# glyph_conflagrate=1
# glyph_corruption=1
# glyph_curse_of_agony=1
# glyph_felguard=1
# glyph_felhunter=1
# glyph_immolate=1
# glyph_imp=1
# glyph_searing_pain=1
# glyph_shadow_bolt=1
# glyph_shadow_burn=1
# glyph_siphon_life=1

#
# Affliction Warlock (no Drain Soul)
#
warlock=Warlock_Affliction
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=550000050000000000000000002350220001023510053510331351000000000000000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/spell_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felhunter/haunt/curse_of_agony/corruption/unstable_affliction/siphon_life/immolate/shadow_bolt/dark_pact
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Glyphs
glyph_corruption=1
glyph_curse_of_agony=1
glyph_siphon_life=1
# Pets
pet=felhunter
actions=shadow_bite/wait
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Demonology Warlock
#
warlock=Warlock_Demonology
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=550030050000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000035033011350101500135031351
actions=flask,type=pure_death/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,felguard/curse_of_doom/demonic_empowerment/metamorphosis/corruption/immolate/shadow_bolt/life_tap
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Glyphs
glyph_corruption=1
glyph_felguard=1
glyph_shadow_bolt=1
# Pets
pet=felguard
actions=cleave/wait
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
pet=succubus
actions=lash_of_pain/wait
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=550
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Destruction Warlock
#
warlock=Warlock_Destruction
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warlock=050332052100310513352303512350020000000000000000000000030000000000000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp/shadow_bolt,shadow_trance=1/curse_of_agony/chaos_bolt/immolate/conflagrate/corruption/incinerate/life_tap
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_crit_rating=461
gear_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=492
chaotic_skyfire=1
# Glyphs
glyph_corruption=1
glyph_imp=1
glyph_curse_of_agony=1
# Pets
pet=imp
actions=fire_bolt
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

tukez · 10/08/08, 5:32 PM

Thanks Ocyr and Graze, I'll fix those for the next version. I forgot to mention that I made LO to proc stuff, like Elemental Oath etc. Is that correct?

McBeefy · 10/08/08, 6:40 PM

looking through the recent parses, anything from ocotober 1st on that had the full damage amount to kill patch, it would look like we (elemental shaman) are topping out around 3k dps and averaging about 2.5 or so. Which while not good and in needing of buffage isnt terrible, just dismal, it certainly wouldnt warrant a raid spot at any rate.

Naturally looking at the classes that can rack up 4k+ dps totals (pretty much everyone but SP and elemental shaman) that are dps specs makes me think that the increase to damage on LvB isnt going to cut it at 80, and scaling will still hold us down unless they sneak in some co-efficient love talents or revert back to the live co-efficient. I suppose nothing that hasnt been said before.

Teenee · 10/09/08, 12:26 AM

The elemental tree also feels fairly heavy, many 5 point talents, even while you can make a "best build", and still get all the talents you want, it still feels sorta bloated. For example, balance druids get 10% regen of int for 3 TPs, while shamans need to put down 5 for the exact same thing (and druids also get a +10% int in resto, tier 1). And does anyone feel that 5 talent points for a 1 second reduction in shock cooldown is even remotely good or "fun"? And Elemental Devastation, this is a pure Enhancement talent, which is great for enhance yeah, but couldn't they at least add *something* to make it interesting for Elementals? Or if not, at least have the decency to move it to Enhance, so it's not sitting in the wrong tree, giving the impression there's actually a sensible choice to be made there.

Latest from the druids is that Earth and Moon (their CoE / 5% spell dmg talent) is getting cut down to 3 points, to free points for more "fun stuff". Overall, the druid talent tree just looks alot more well designed (yes, grass is greener warning). But I kinda wish I had the feeling of "gee, I want to get all of these talents, but don't have enough points!"

And seeing a comment from GC like

Bloat (in our dictionary) does not mean there are more talents you want than you can afford. That's a *good* thing. If there were a bunch of talents you'd never ever get, now *that* would be a problem.

Well, looking at Elemental, there's basicly only 1 build I can imagine for all PvE (solo, raid, small content). Only thing that seems even remotely debatable is the old Elemental Warding, but in current WoW, that's mostly taken as a "best of a rather mediocre selection" (such as the current Ancestral Knowledge or Totemic Focus, which is still present in LK, despite being even more unattractive due to totem duration being extended 150%).

Durnitol · 10/09/08, 2:21 AM

Dedmonwakeen, I looked at your sim results and I've been keeping up with this thread pretty steadily, I do not understand how the numbers jumped up by 2k dps, when everyone is complaining with both hard evidence and sim results on their own that we are way way down the list. What has changed in the latest results? I don't know how to read your sim config file.

• Binkenstein · 10/09/08, 2:53 AM

He adjusted the sim by the things he put at the start of the post. (ie: CL had all three charges hitting the same target). A nice idea, but not exactly what we want.

Darian_TruBlade · 10/09/08, 3:49 AM

I wonder if that's the disconnect. If Blizzard's spreadsheets or simulations are counting the bounces of CL toward Shaman DPS that would explain how we can be short over a thousand DPS without them noticing. In a way it'd be nice, but as much as I'd like that to be our problem it's more likely to be the sum of a number of small things.

Aanzeijar · 10/09/08, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

He adjusted the sim by the things he put at the start of the post. (ie: CL had all three charges hitting the same target). A nice idea, but not exactly what we want.

Nor what we'll get. A CL that hits with all hops would be near instagib in pvp. Elemental Mastery with an active 4th hop glyph and a lucky LO would be the shaman version of a pyro mage.

Kesdaman · 10/09/08, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

To me that more seems to indicate that some other classes are kind of messed up.

Can someone explain how the balance druid and arms warrior high on those meters had 60%+ crit rates over the entire fight? The arms warrior crit 62% of his white hits, 54% of his executes, etc....

Looks like there is a good chance there is a bug.

From Ghostcrawler: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> I don't get it, Paladins and Warriors...

A lot of the numbers coming out from before this past weekend were tainted with the exploits where you could stack stats by re-equpping weapons. We are still seeing some cases where groups have 50-60% crit rates. So it's hard to tell whether some classes are too high or if it's just some bugs inflating numbers.

Agash · 10/09/08, 12:06 PM

I have been trying to figure out what Glyphs might be most useful for us both after 3.0 and through WotLK. The latest information I have on the Glyphs is as follows:

Chain Lightning : +1 target
Earth Shock : -1s GCD
Flame Shock : +3s Duration
Flametongue Weapon : 2% crit
Lightning Bolt : -10% mana
Totem of Wrath : 1% spell haste.

My first thoughts were Flametongue Weapon, Lightning Bolt and either Chain Lightning or Totem of Wrath. However, the Glyph of Earth Shock got me thinking...what if we included an ES with a 0.5s GCD into our standard DPS rotation?

I knocked myself up a crude spreadsheet based upon my current damage stats taken from WWS reports. My current gear level is 2 pieces T6 so I appreciate that my LBs are weaker than they would be with the 4 piece bonus.

However, it quickly became apparent that including the ES did up my DPS considerably at level 70 to the degree that a ES, LBx3 rotation output 13% more DPS than a straight LB spam. I tested other combinations including FS (including the +50% dot damage) and the only one that actually beat it (by 0.5%) was the rather complex FS, LBx2, ES, LBx3, ES, LBx3 rotation that required both the FS to be be glyphed and 3 points in Reverberation.

Unfortunately I don't have access to Beta or to any simulators and was wondering if someone here could verify whether this does indeed hold true for either 3.0 or WotLK. I assume the WotLK rotation would probably be FS, LBx2, ES, LBx2, LvB to make best use of the FS/LvB synergy. This would of course require 3 points in Reverberation.

tukez · 10/09/08, 3:46 PM

1.3.2
-Fixed Lightning Overload mechanics.
-Fixed Lava Flows mechanics.
-Totem of Hex added.
-Fixed Naxx nuker 4 set bonus mechanics.
-Fixed Illustration of the Dragon Soul to give sp instead of ap.
-Added default elemental config based around item lvl 213 items.
-Added option to cast Lava Lash only if Windfury is on cd. This option is noted only if dual wf is used. Config options is cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd.

enhsim - Google Code

So I fixed the talents. I made an ele config based on ilvl 213 items. I used 5/5 naxx set and some others I just randomly picked from Wowhead. Put spellpower chants and spell hit gems. The stats are probably off a bit, I didn't pay too much attention, but they should be somewhere near the correct stats. That config gives about 4000dps if I remember right. Remember it doesn't model mana.

tufy · 10/09/08, 7:32 PM

No elemental shaman will use Searing Totem, tukez. 3280 dps with your model, which more or less fits calculations and expected simulation dps and ingame tests.

dedmonwakeen · 10/10/08, 9:03 AM

SimulationCraft r750 available for download..... mostly tweaks to Shamans.

I was willing to have an open mind, so I did my due diligence..... Researched, experimented, played with spreadsheets, reviewed my code for hours.....

I don't care what Blizzard says.... Ele Shaman DPS sucks in comparison to other casters.

Using Water Shield, a gob of MP5, and a Glyphed Earth Shocks squeezed out a teensy bit more...... but not enough to make a real difference.

Satellite · 10/10/08, 9:35 AM

Dedmonwakeen

I am suggesting this specc
and the Flameshock glyph instead of the LB one. And may dropp the CL glyph.
Your rotation ist FS/3xLB/CL/LvB ? (depends on haste)

I think this will turn out in more DPS, but if not I´m at least interested in what in reveals.

/edit: and to intercept missunderstandings, you are using ToW in your calculations? Because you have skilled Flametongue Totem right now.

Agash · 10/10/08, 10:22 AM

Dedmonwakeen,

I'm not sure whether you dropped in the Glyph of Earth Shock at my suggestion, someone elses or off your own back - but thanks anyway, it gives me the last bit of information I needed to pump into my spreadsheets.

It appears the Glyphed Earth Shock is not as effective at 80 as it is at 70 and the 5 points required in Reverb to make the rotation work and the loss of a Glyph slot may not be worth the extra 2% it seems to add to DPS.

At 70, however, the numbers look good (adding about 12% DPS) so i think I will level to 75 using a Glyphed Earth Shock and probably drop it then in favour of a FS/LvB based rotation.

ncervantes · 10/10/08, 1:02 PM

Reading through this thread and blue posts on MMO is really pushing me to go Enh in the expansion. Blizzard has really messed this spec up and are completely blind too all the data that people have posted on pages and pages of threads. They tell us LB and CL are almost TOO good??? Unbelievable. Look at every single Ele shaman's dps on a boss, its horrible. Unless every shaman that posts meters is just incredibly bad (which I highly doubt) they are going in the direction of make us what ret pally's were to BC.

Laupen · 10/10/08, 1:40 PM

My understanding is that Blizz thank LB and CL are "almost too good" in terms of mana efficiency.

Big whoop, we finish boss fights with 40% mana left and the mages are on nothing... They still did more damage than us. We need Blizz to balance us around DPS rather than DPM.

If they have some convoluted plan that mages will run out of mana mid-boss fight and that we will make up the damage while they stand there and regen... Well that's ridiculous and will obviously only be balanced around one *exact* fight duration, with us losing out hugely at any shorter fight.

Sigh, I'm actually pretty worried that this is their plan and we're doomed to just suck from now on (except those epic 30 min boss fights... -.-)

ncervantes · 10/10/08, 1:48 PM

Anyone have any updated meters on a boss fight with the imp LvB and CoE buff?

Daidalos · 10/10/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Laupen

My understanding is that Blizz thank LB and CL are "almost too good" in terms of mana efficiency.

Big whoop, we finish boss fights with 40% mana left and the mages are on nothing... They still did more damage than us. We need Blizz to balance us around DPS rather than DPM.

If they have some convoluted plan that mages will run out of mana mid-boss fight and that we will make up the damage while they stand there and regen... Well that's ridiculous and will obviously only be balanced around one *exact* fight duration, with us losing out hugely at any shorter fight.

Sigh, I'm actually pretty worried that this is their plan and we're doomed to just suck from now on (except those epic 30 min boss fights... -.-)

Bink and I have been playing with a sheet that covers caster scaling. Its looking like we are behind right now although as far as mana we are far more efficient. Adding about 10% to LB coef would fix this scaling issue and pretty much put us on par scaling-wise and far ahead on mana usage. From recent posts it sounds like they are going to reduce the mage mana usage a bit. Using CL helps a little as far as scaling goes since currently CL scaling / s is about 5% better than LB. So really our scaling isn't THAT bad yes its a litttle low but I think people are getting carried away about about scaling issues. I do think our baseline dps is too low but thankfully thats even easier to fix than scaling.

Other things to note. Our mana usage is much less than mages. I'm not sure how relevant this is to locks... and unsure about balance druid usage. If someone knows druids and wants to enter in some info contact bink or myself. (I can't add people but I can enter the info. Bink is the owner and can add people)

Current scaling comparison sheet (work in progress)
Google Docs - SpellScaling