tufy

Our mana useage is so low I'm running full mana pool in the Naxx 25 raid using max rotation with as many CLs as possible. That'll have to get nerfed eventually. The dps, though, is much too low, as you said. I'm currently running 9th to 11th (except Heigan, people fail on dances :p), roughly 1000 dps under top.

One comment, though - are you sure adding 10% to LB is a good idea? The more crit we get, the lower the relative value of FS-LvB, it might be a better idea to put that damage on LvB, tbh (perhaps as part of Storm, Earth and Fire to boost those talents' damage contribution) - though that might up the pvp burst too much. Hm...

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Daidalos

The problem is that as you add haste the number of LBs increase and in additiona LvB is already our highest scaling spell I see no reason to it increase its scaling when LB is so low. Personally I"d like a 10% increase to LB and increase the base mana cost a little.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

MatthewDB

Completely unimpressed with the Blizzcon class boards for shaman. However I didnt expect much.

 

Tainter

If a glyph was introduced that decreases LB cast time but increases LB mana consumption, would you like that?
How much cast time reduction would be necessary to put Shamans on par with the other casters? 0.2s maybe?

If you can't join them?
Beat them.

 

Pitbuller

I don't get Idea of lighning bolt glyph. If blizz think lightning bolt is too cheap allready why do a glyph which make it even more cheaper. With elem focus up and convection lightning bolt cost only 50% of base cost. Then that 10% is 20%. If elemental focus uptime is around 75% glyph save ((.1/.5) * .075) + (.1/.9)*.25) = 0.1778.
17.8% cheaper main nuke from one glyph sound good but this isn't what elemental shamans need. Change it +Y% mana cost and +X% damage.

Blizzard should add all spells to lighning overload and rename it to elemental overload then scaling with different spells would be much easier to handle. Double flame shock wouldn't be problem and second lava burst loses auto crit niche. Unique talent to give some kind of scaling is better than carbon copy from caster class X talent. Shaman have that talent but one school specify is main problem right now.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Teenee

T7 set bonus is also a lowered LB mana cost.

 

Ocyr

The answer to that would be really complex, because it's a scaling question that would have to include talents and gearing.

It also has a couple of core problems that nullify the results (so I'll go with this and skip comparing every single class+talent+gear); it doesn't address the LvB issue (that is, Blizzard wants us to use LvB and anything increasing the damage of just LB works contrary to that); and it doesn't really even come close to addressing the real DPS problem (we are about 35% under other casters), and the perceived efficiency problem that Blizzard has (we are about 20% more efficient than other casters, if you conveniently ignore their passive and active regeneration abilities, which Blizzard apparently does).

I think DPM / efficiency is a false problem that some developers at Blizzard is hung up on, and DPS is our real problem that they keep ignoring because of the false efficiency problem.

As Tufy said [paraphrasing], ending a raid encounter with 100% mana is meaningless if your DPS is 1,000 less than every other caster. There is no way to fix that large of an imbalance with base spell damage increases, nor with minor haste changes.

Shaman are the only caster that does not have talents for increasing your spell power by a % of X stat, and the only caster that does not have a talent for granting bonus spell power based off gear. Those two types of talents go directly to scaling, and until Shaman get them both, Blizzard is going to be bouncing from one base modification to the next, and will never find a real solution. Shaman are also the only class in which the majority of their DPS-buffing talents are raid-buffing talents, and not personal-buffing talents, meaning that any DPS comparison which includes those raid buffs in the Shaman's personal numbers will give a false result of comparative DPS*.


*that is to say, Blizzard seems to currently be looking at Totem of Wrath and Wrath of Air and Mana Spring totems when running Elemental Shaman solo sims, which is all fine and dandy, except in a raid setting those buffs all benefit other classes as well -- which is not reflected when you, say, take a Balance Druid and run a solo sim on it -- but it is the actual reality of a raid. So counting Totem of Wrath against Shaman when considering a talent that would grant Shaman a bonus 20% of their spell power just ends up leaving the Shaman short on scaling talents, and giving every other class Totem of Wrath + their personal spell power bonus from talents.

Someone on the beta forums has already pointed something similar out -- Blizzard has boxed themselves into a corner, by loading Shaman up with so many raid buffs, in which the only solutions that will make Elemental Shaman do raid-viable DPS (that is, equal to other casters like Balance Druids) will make them "overpowered" in solo-dps testing. The person making the post seemed to feel Blizzard Devs were actually aware of this, and were balking and looking for other solutions -- but as he stated, Blizzard has always said they don't balance around 1 vs 1. And there won't be another solution that will stand up to gear changes as additional content is added. Blizzard will either have to make Elemental Shaman an extremely powerful 1 vs 1 class, or it will never be able to balance it for raiding in this expansion, simply because of all the raid buffs cooked into a single Elemental Shaman.

 

mek

A decent theory, but the same doesn't apply to Enhancement, which is competitive with other melee DPS specs despite the additional buffs they bring a raid. (Ret brings just as much buffing power if not more, and again is extremely competitive. Again with Moonkins.) I think part of the point of the buff redundancy changes was to allow the developers the freedom to ignore buffs when balancing dps: in a 25man raid, an elemental shaman may bring absolutely nothing other than their own DPS and an extra mana spring totem, and they still need to be competitive in that situation. Finally, there aren't even any imaginable PvP concerns for Elemental in 1v1 currently - they are quite weak there.

I think there simply must be flaws in whatever spreadsheets or models Blizzard is using internally to project DPS, which are giving false results indicating excessively high scaling for Elemental in WotLK. Do they know something we don't? Unlikely.

 

Scaredofbees

Day 2 Class Panel

Q: Any feedback on the current state of Elemental Shaman?
A: Class balance is so reactive. Each class type reacts to changes of other classes differently. Elemental Shamans, like Hunters, fight the GCD quite a bit, and Devs have tried to give them some help in that regard. Changing totems to the physical school may help. They have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Other than PvP, I didn't think GCD was such a big deal.

Q: Will Elemental Shamans ever get a Talent that boost spell power with spirit like other casters have?
A: If they need it. Devs are to the point where spirit is no longer the mana regen stat, it's more of a boost for spell power. They don't feel everyone needs a Talent like this, but if it's needed, it will be added.

But everyone does have something like or similar to this, except us.

 

• Binkenstein

In a way, Overload is our empowerment talent, but a bad one.

 

Ocyr

I've never fallen for the argument that Overload is anything like a spell power scaling talent.

Lighting Overload is what it is -- and overpriced version of other classes lower-tier spell damage talents. It increases the damage of 2 Shaman spells by 10% for 40 points; compare to Moonfury, which increases 3 Druid spells by 10% for 30 points. And note that Moonfury doesn't stop Druids from getting 4 spell power multipliers in their talent trees. So why should Lightning Overload, which is just an overpriced underpowered Moonfury, be used as an argument against even 1 spell power talent for Shaman? [A: It shouldn't]

I really don't know what to say to the bolded statement given by a Blizzard Dev during a Q&A. The exact opposite is actually the truth. Once again, a huge disconnect between the Developers that have never actually experienced the class mechanics other than via spreadsheets and theory-crafting, and the reality of how the class actually plays?

 

Mode

They were probably thinking/talking about the pvp 4-piece set bonus which gave 70% pushback resistance. It was subsequently nerfed to 50%.

Has anyone ever put together a complete list of ele shaman nerfs and buffs over the course of BC? Maybe some sort of pattern will become apparent if we look at the big picture.

 

tufy

Even if we count the 70% pushback resistance (on ONE spell!!!!), it's a blatant outright lie. Warlocks, a CLOTH class, were always a better melee "tank" due to soul link system and drain life (SL-SL build). If we consider Eye of the Storm, then rogues have way too many interrupts to be successfully tank-nuked, while warriors and paladins don't crit often enough. This ment that the best class we were able to tank-nuke were hunters, against which EotS was indeed very powerful.

I really don't get some of the answers or even questions, tbh. For instance, GCD isn't a problem and I have no idea how the hell making totems physical was intended to help fight THAT problem, it's like saying "yeah, the car's engine was broken. We painted the car blue, it may help run a bit smoother". The second answer (and even question) is even wierder. We were never a spirit class, thus making spellpower scale with spirit would be a bad decision by default. If they want to scale our spellpower, they have to either make it intellect based (like Lunar Guidance), add a talent that increases existing spellpower (like "empowered" talents such as Wrath of Cenarius) or add more secondary scaling systems (such as Lightning Overload or critical damage increases).

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Agash

It strikes me that what we need is something that reduces our mana efficiency and keeps LvB emphasised (to keep Blizz happy) and yet increases our DPS (to keep us happy). I was thinking maybe a change to Elemental Focus to something like 20% mana reduction and 20% damage increase on the next 2 spells after a crit. It's probably a bit overpowered for a one point talent so maybe change it to a 5 pointer and trim some points elsewhere.

 

Pitbuller

You have to think how this change effect enchancement. Blizz don't want us do too much spell damage. This would change balance and they would have to nerf enhancement some way to compensate. More elengant solution would be buff concussion to 10%. Enhancement shaman plan skip that talent becouse convection give us 100mp5 and concussion give only 45dps. You have to think every talent change from every aspect. Pve dps, pvp burst, rotations, elemental longevity, Enhacement access/dps/longevity.

I think main problem is Lava burst. Burst can't be too big so scaling can't be very good but it still have to better than lighning bolt. This lead weak lighning bolt. Maybe Lava burst would be better if it's only would reaply flame shock dot.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Genj

Has anyone calculated which will be more beneficial for raiding when the patch hits, between 5/5 SE&F vs. 3/3 in Elemental Weapons in enhancement?

So it's either more 30% more spelldmg on FT weapon imbue benefiting any rotation, or more chain lightning in the rotations. It surely depends on the haste amount a person has but if the difference is significant, regemming and regearing to pure spelldmg might prove to be useful in the case we will fire a chain lightning every 4sec (CL,LB,LB,CL), no?

 

Duno

As has been proposed by greater minds already, they should just drop the base damage of offensive spells and compensate with a deep elemental talent to provide scaling. If the scaling affects all offensive spells, it will maintain the usefulness of incorporating LvB and FlS into our rotation.

Perhaps the mana cost can be increased to bring further base parity with other caster classes. Buffs to thunderstorm mana return would compensate, in turn making the talent/spell more useful for PVE.

This should markedly decrease the incentive for enhance to wear spellpower gear, which may solve the allusions I've read that enhance dps is a bit too high right now (?). With the new dual-spec system, such a change would not ruin resto-shaman as they can have a secondary dps spec if they desire to quest, farm, etc.

 

• Juice

You're incorrect regarding GCD. The statement was made relative to PvP and yes, GCD management is a problem in PvP for elemental. All dps and utility requires a GCD. It makes it hard to be highly reactive to enemy movements if you find yourself on the wrong side of the GCD at the wrong time (wait 1-1.5 second to drop a tremor, earth shock someone, or put down a grounding).

Now, making totems part of the physical tree doesn't change that. It does address another significant issue for elemental shaman in TBC - huge reliance on the Nature spell school. Right now when we're on nature school lock out, our options for how to spend our time (8 seconds on counterspell) are extremely limited. Physical totems will help that some, but the GCD lock will be exactly the same. For pve, you'll loose fewer GCDs on totems due to the 5 minute duration...

 

tufy

That's exactly the same for every caster - for instance, a mage using Fire Ward or Mana Shield evokes global cooldown, preventing him from casting damage spells. The only exception to this is counterspell, but this exception is covered by our new Wind Shock. The totem system evoking GCD has nothing to do with GCD as such, though, it has to do with retarded buffing system that's the very core of the totem problem.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Daidalos

LO also gives 10% increase to damage and a 10% threat reduction to LB and CL (in CL's case it can be greater than 10% due to the chance of proccing per jump) I do think SEF should get the 10% increase to LB coef again. Its really the major hole in our scaling. FS is weak but averaged out with LvB its fine.

Taking current mechanics and giving the 10% to LB back yields pretty good parity with mages in scaling as can be seen here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...lYm_Rlz4F0wJHg

The fix is simple and was implemented at one time so it should be trivial for them to reintegrate those changes if they ever listen to us. Re-implement the 10% empowerment to LB and increase LB base cost. I should note that any spi->spell power conversions are not in the spread sheet and if all classes are getting this its something we will need as well for scaling to be on par.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

• Juice

Is windshock off the GCD? I'll admit I've been lazy in keeping up with it's mechanics.

I disagree with your above comment, but we're getting off tangent so I'll be brief. Elemental shaman spend a greater percentage of their normal operations under a GCD effect. In part because they have so many tools in their belt to respond to the movements of other players, and in part because their longest cast time spell is only 1/2 second over that of the GCD. A greater portion of the time of elemental shaman, in pvp, is spent GCD constrained. We might argue if that's good/bad/indifferent - but let's not do it in this thread since it detracts from PvE discussion. Giving us Windschock off the GCD and reducing the totem GCD to 1.0 seconds a few patches back is a really good change.

 

tufy

A fire or elementalist mage pvping with Scorch spam + instants or a Boomkin with Wrath/Moonfire + Cyclone/root combo (remember, roots work indoor now) will be exactly the same. GCD reduction on totems was a step in the right direction, but it didn't solve the core of the problem - a level 5 frog can walk to the totem and kill it with a single hit. We're literally the only class in game that's forced to buff itself in the combat itself - even a warrior with his 2 min buff duration can do so before he jumps into the field and is free to do whatever he wants for those two minutes, even walking right to the other side of the area without losing his buff. A shaman goes 41 yards away and... To further weaken them, totems are easily targetable and destroyable by pet through a macro - no 1s GCD will help you there when the player can simply ignore the totems, nuking you, while the pet deals with the "problem" he didn't even notice. Totems are supposed to be our strong point - just as a player needs to consider which stance the warrior is in (can he break fear? Can he spell reflect?) or whether using a certain spell is a good idea, or will a druid just shapeshift and break it, so too should totems force the player to stop and think whether something is a threat to him or not - as it stands right now, nobody does so, all it has to be done is casually shooting off a cheap spell or letting your pet deal with it and the nuisance is gone.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Ocyr

Well the cheap spell part is fixed, Mages and the like will have to use a max rank / max mana spell to kill the totems, so I am OK with that because it fixes part of the problem. The only broken aspect for PvP remains the pet macro problem, where pet-class players are able to automate their totem killing so that it does not require any input from them, any mana, or any GCDs. They just copy and paste a pre-scripted macro, and attach it to their spells, so that their pets are always automatically killing specific totems. This is a very broken aspect of the game where Arenas are concerned, and it remains unaddressed.

 

Hainar

A mage with a fast casting wand can still "nuke" our totems though faster than we can re-cast them, or at least as fast as we can recast them. Though this does mean we aren't getting nuked in the process. But yes it doesn't help with the pet based classes in any way shape or form.

 

Tainter

It's not quite that black and white. Even a pet totem-killing macro has an opportunity cost. The pet won't be doing damage at that time. It won't interrupt spell casting. A Felhunter may not be in range for a Spell Lock and sometimes the pet blindly chasing the totems means you can drink because it's not chasing you.

It's not easy to say what Totems need in order to "feel" right for the Shaman and not be too strong. Indestructible Totems, or ones with say 2k HP, would probably be too strong for example. On the other hand pet classes counter Totems too effectively I suppose.

There is a slight trend for classes to gain something when their ability effects end or get dispelled at the moment. For example Warlock Fear has a talent to reduce the targets speed when it fades. Perhaps Totems could have something similar. When a totem of a certain element is killed the Shaman gains a little buff or the killer a debuff. Or alternatively the 5 minute Totems could be immune to damage for a short period of time after being planted. Something like three to five seconds could make a real difference. If it feels too strong or weak the time can get changed until it feels right.

Edit: Thoughts on Elemental dps
The general verdict seems to be that Shamans don't do enough dps, but have lots of Mana. There is one stat which converts efficiency into output: Haste. And it's a rather efficient stat as far as item budget is concerned. Has anyone tried what happens to dps if the gear is rich in a combination of haste, crit and power? Perhaps being extreme and foregoing all mp5/int gemming or enchanting.

If you can't join them?
Beat them.