Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 55

Agash · 10/16/08, 7:56 PM

Flame Shock
396 + 650 base damage (with 5/5 Storm Earth Fire talent)
Modifiers
1330 spell power
29 (gear) + 5 (TS) + 5 (EO) + 3 (ToW) + 10 (Imp. Scorch) = 52% crit rate for direct damage portion / 0% for damage over time
1.21 second GCD time**
((396 + (1330*.29) * 1.52)) + (650 * 1.29)) / 1.21 = 1674 damage

Flame Shock at 70 is a DPS loss for Elemental Shaman, even with SE&F talents and casting on a target with improved scorch.

However, it is not possible to Glyph to increase LB damage whereas you can with FS and I don't believe you have included that. Including the extra tick from the Glyph the Base damage for FS becomes 396 + 812.

I think that there is a bracket missing from your equation but this should add (812-650)*1.29 damage = 209 or 173 DPS making it the higher DPS spell by 103 DPS.

Ocyr · 10/16/08, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by Agash

However, it is not possible to Glyph to increase LB damage whereas you can with FS and I don't believe you have included that. Including the extra tick from the Glyph the Base damage for FS becomes 396 + 812.

I think that there is a bracket missing from your equation but this should add (812-650)*1.29 damage = 209 or 173 DPS making it the higher DPS spell by 103 DPS.

Thanks, I corrected for the glyph, and it changed the outcome.

• Binkenstein · 10/16/08, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hodur

Great information so far gang, thanks a ton as it's really helped many fellow Shaman. One thing I'd like to add is towards the necessity for more +hit. As mentioned above there are quite a few items out there than can give you +hit, but I'd say the biggest "bang for the buck" would be the Skyshatter T6 gloves. From those you get +19 hit, you can add +15 more with the newly renammed Precise Strikes enchant and another +10 with a epic yellow gem (for a grand total of +44 hit on one item).

I know many of you who are in Sunwell will have better gloves, but for the majority I think these gloves will be the easiest way to get to 10% (vs the old 4%).

With that +44 you can likely just regem a few other items or if you have other high end items like the Loop of Forged power (+19), Translucent Spellthread Necklace (+15), or the awesome Skull of Gul'dan (+25) then the gloves won't be as big an issue.

But, this change for many is a big surprise so they haven't been after the high end items like above (and there are more). So, what can you do to get your +hit higher so that you can actually hit things again until you get those items? Well, you can pick up items like Ruby Drape of the Mysticant (+18) from Kara or the Hammer of Judgement (+22) from Hyjal if you don't have something much better already.

The key is: this change stinks, but there are ways around it to still be able to contribute to raids. I've only listed a few of the items available, but I hope it helps.

I went for that glove setup, hoping to get a loop of forged power, and then would just need an alternate bracer gemming to hit 10% (huzzah for hit aura + skull of gul'dan). However for the convinience factor I picked up a Fused Nether-whatsit band from the IQD badge vendor which put me over the cap, but I'm using Spicey Talbuk Steaks for an extra 20 hit rating.

Also, gloves were the best of the original t6 items to use for the four piece too.

• Juice · 10/17/08, 12:05 AM

I guess WWS isn't updated to 3.0 combat logs yet. Just anecdotally, I did 2485 dps on Brut tonight.

I was kinda dumb, and ran wizard oil instead of flametongue (I forgot about the improvement).

Anyway, my spec is 44/17/0. My gear is in armory, it's decent.

I ran in a solid pack with our other DPS. Enhancement shaman (similar gearing) did 2500, mages did 2500 and 2300, another elemental shaman (much better gear than mine, but he used a 51/x/x spec which is inferior at 70) did 2335. The only people who tore up the DMs were rogues at 2900s. It wasn't nearly the parade of tears I was fearing.

So it's possible all the crying is for nothing. 'saying.

Edit: I should add, this raid is a group of nubs mostly. None of us are full sunwell geared, just stuff up through Brut. Also, tonight was terrible for our server - lag and shit. So performance probably isn't typical. .

Dhiva · 10/17/08, 12:08 AM

I've done my own testing on live on testing dummies to determine if FS is better. This is my results I got.

Flame shock is 395 to 396 fire damage immediately and 810 to 815 over 15 secs if Glyphed, 648 to 652 over 12 sec if not.

Our constants:
FS_DD_BASE = 395.5
FS_DOT_BASE = 812.5
FS_DD_COEF = 0.225 (This was obtained from testing from 0 to 1600 fire damage on char screen, with multiple mixes of T6 / meta, this should be higher with CoE)
FS_DOT_COEF = 0.775 (This should be higher with CoE)
CRIT_AND_META_MULT = 2.09 (I have no clue why the "Skyfire Diamond" gives a 2.09 multiplier instead of 2.06, but after hours of testing, with fire damage gear from 0 to 1600, testing with and without meta gem, T6 bonus with and without, 2.09 matches perfectly when I got the meta gem on, otherwise, it was 2.00 )
IMP_COE_COEF = 0.13

Our Variables:
GCD = 1.21 ( with around 366 haste, took directly from Ocyr's example )
FireDmg = 1500
FireCrit = 0.45 (This is an approximation of fire % crit in raid normall LB/CL/TH would be around 50%, but our fire damage doesn't benefit from "Call of Thunder" I believe)
FS_DD_Done : Flame shock direct damage
FS_DOT_Done : Flame shock dot damage
FS_TOT_Done : Flame shock total damage
FS_DPS : Flame shock DPS

Our Equations:
FS_DD_EQ : (FS_DD_BASE + FireDmg * FS_DD_COEF) * (CRIT_AND_META_MULT * FireCrit + (1-FireCrit)) = FS_DD_Done
FS_DOT_EQ : FS_DOT_BASE + FireDmg * FS_DOT_COEF = FS_DOT_Done
FS_TOTAL_EQ : FS_DD_Done + FS_DOT_Done = FS_TOT_Done
FS_DPS_EQ : FS_TOT_Done / GCD = FS_DPS

With 1500 spell damage, 366 haste, 45% crit, the result is:

FS_DD_Done = (395.5 + 1500 * 0.225) * (2.09 * 0.45 + 0.55) = 1092.5365
FS_DOT_Done = 812.5 + 1500 * 0.775 = 1975
FS_TOT_Done = 1092.5365 + 1975 = 3067.5364
FS_DPS = 3067.5364 / 1.21 = 2535.15 DPS

With Improved CoE:
FS_DD_Done = (395.5 + 1500 * 0.225 * 1.13) * (2.09 * 0.45 + 0.55) = 1157.9322
FS_DOT_Done = 812.5 + 1500 * 0.775 * 1.13 = 2126.125
FS_DPS = (1157.9322 + 2126.125) / 1.21 = 2714.1 DPS

I'm very confident with the above values, as they were tested on live for hours on testing dummies, with different sets of gears, and it makes sense too. I saw other statements from previous posts that seemed wrong to me, and decided to test it and present proofs.

For a quick test, get the Flame Shock Glyph, go 51/10, and try putting like 100 FS DOTS on dummies while auto attacking it, sum up all the FS total damage, divide by 100 (or whatever times you casted it), and divide it by your GCD. You should come with a rough value of around 2500dps with Sunwell gears. I'm confident that Flame Shock is actually our current highest DPS spell when all ticks are used.

1.Could someone point me out how should I add CoE into my FS_DD_COEF and FS_DOT_COEF ?
2.Please let me know what raid buffs we likely would have and should be calculated.
3.Could anyone clarify why the Skyfire diamond gives a +9% crit damage increase and not +6% ?

Daidalos · 10/17/08, 1:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dhiva

FS_DD_COEF = 0.225 (This was obtained from testing from 0 to 1600 fire damage on char screen, with multiple mixes of T6 / meta, this should be higher with CoE)
FS_DOT_COEF = 0.775 (This should be higher with CoE)

Hm did you mean .2205? for the dd coef with concussion otherwise your findings don't match mine?
Also the .775 coef is I assume with 5 ticks since each tick has a .155 coef according to my results.

1.Could someone point me out how should I add CoE into my FS_DD_COEF and FS_DOT_COEF ?
2.Please let me know what raid buffs we likely would have and should be calculated.
3.Could anyone clarify why the Skyfire diamond gives a +9% crit damage increase and not +6% ?

1. CoE is just a 10% dmg modifier you just multiply whatever the final number is by 10% or 13% (I think its 13 for imp CoE)
2. Hm do you mean for 10 mans or 25 mans?
3. the 3% increased dmg is applied before elemental fury and basically bliz did the math in an odd way which doesn't really show up until you add in a modifier like this. So ((1.5*1.03)-1)*2+ 1 or some other way of writing the same equation. Why did they do it this way? We have no idea but I"m sure it was just one of those things where we can't be sure since we don't see the code and no one even noticed until they introduced CSD and the like.

missiletoad · 10/17/08, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by Juice

I ran in a solid pack with our other DPS. Enhancement shaman (similar gearing) did 2500, mages did 2500 and 2300, another elemental shaman (much better gear than mine, but he used a 51/x/x spec which is inferior at 70) did 2335.

It should be noted that the big DPS difference was due to +Hit, not spec. I was running with just 3.5% Hit tonight (forgot to re-gem for hit as I'm taking a break from heavy raiding), which is abysmal on boss fights. This led to expected results on single target boss fights.I had what, over a 10% miss rate on Brutallus? Ugh.

Regarding spec difference at 70, going 51 into Elemental is going to be higher overall damage in a raid with a few mana replenishers which is raiding an instance with big trash packs like Sunwell, because you can spam the living shit out of Chain Lightning. I was pushing the CL button every time the cooldown was up, and mana did not budge (3 replenishers in raid). With a CL glyph it'd be even more glorious. It makes me feel a bit less hatred towards the SEF talent.. though it's still obviously not very great overall, especially if it only shines on large trash pulls.

Spec-wise the only difference between yours and mine is 2% crit and 29 spell power. Considering you forgot to use Flametongue tonight, even those differences are moot.

Dhiva · 10/17/08, 2:12 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Hm did you mean .2205? for the dd coef with concussion otherwise you findings don't match mine?
Also the .775 coef is I assume with 5 ticks since each tick has a .155 coef according to my results.

Yes it was using the FS Glyph with 5 ticks.
Its possible the coefficient on the DD of FS is not 0.225, those coefficients were averaged from my personal data samples. Although all the data sample were very stable and I tried using 0.2205 instead of 0.225 and it doesnt match up on any data sample, while 0.225 does.

Maybe it's a difference in gear or talent? That's what I'm using as my current build:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...00000000000000

1. CoE is just a 10% dmg modifier you just multiple whatever the final number is by 10% or 13% (I think its 13 for imp CoE)

Will add this to see new results.

2. Hm do you mean for 10 mans or 25 mans?

Was more towards 25 mans. I think I'll do more research first.

3. the 3% increased dmg is applied before elemental fury and basically bliz did the math in an add way which doesn't really show up until you add in a modifier like this. So ((1.5*1.03)-1)*2+ 1 or some other way of writing the same equation. Why did they do it this way? We have no idea but I"m sure it was just one of those things where we can't be sure since we don't see the code and no one even noticed until they introduced CSD and the like.

Ok, I was banging my head for hours trying to figure out how the hell that additional damage on crit was coming from, well I won't complain for extra damage

Daidalos · 10/17/08, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dhiva

Its possible the coefficient on the DD of FS is not 0.225, those coefficients were averaged from my personal data samples. Although all the data sample were very stable and I tried using 0.2205 instead of 0.225 and it doesnt match up on any data sample, while 0.225 does.

Ok, I was banging my head for hours trying to figure out how the hell that additional damage on crit was coming from, well I won't complain for extra damage

Hm I'll double check on the FS coef I was thinking it was .210 untalented but I could be off by .005 or some such so if the coef is .215 untalented it would be closer to your result.

Dhiva · 10/17/08, 2:47 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Hm I'll double check on the FS coef I was thinking it was .210 untalented but I could be off by .005 or some such so if the coef is .215 untalented it would be closer to your result.

Yes that would do 0.22575, and it could work according to my samples.

• Juice · 10/17/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by missiletoad

Spec-wise the only difference between yours and mine is 2% crit and 29 spell power. Considering you forgot to use Flametongue tonight, even those differences are moot.

Look, it's OK that you're terrible. We understand and still love you. No need to lash out.

OK I'm kidding, Mork is an excellent elemental shaman.

I guess DPS on trash will be better, but I wouldn't think it'd be better on bosses. But with 4 weeks till wotlk and we can get LvB, who cares right?

Also, last night was my first raid with a G15 keyboard. I fumbled up more stuff than you know. At least on Brut I just sat there with the "spam LB you idiot" button held down. How did I live without that for this long?

fasian · 10/17/08, 12:24 PM

Target dummies are lvl 70, not 73, and as stated before all of your CL's will hit 2 targets. 2hours hitting these targets pales in comparison to some of the real math done by some of our brain trust.

I'm anxious to see some theory crafting models for some of the new talents, and reserve judgement until then.

As far as the crying about the nerfbat, ya it may sting, but the re-ordering of dps meters is to be expected with sweaping changes in class structure. It typically ends up being competitive in the endgame, so let them iron it out. Also, how can we expect to occupy the same spot on a dmg meter when we went from being OVER the hit cap to a 4-8% miss rate?

It will all work out. Best of luck to you mathaletes!

Dhiva · 10/17/08, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by fasian

Target dummies are lvl 70, not 73, and as stated before all of your CL's will hit 2 targets. 2hours hitting these targets pales in comparison to some of the real math done by some of our brain trust.

AFAIK, the only difference between level 70 and level 73 targets, is the missrate. For simplicity, I didn't include it in my flameshock test, even if flameshock has an advantage over any of our other spells because the missrate is only calculated on the direct damage portion, the DOT ticks never misses. So even if I did include the missrate in my test, flameshock will only come out better.

Also, you can avoid hitting multiple targets with chain lightning depending how you position yourself. CL will NEVER bounce to a target that is 180 degrees behind you ( ie: the target is behind you). You can use that as a trick to avoid breaking sheeps/CC targets sometimes too, and stay friend with mages

IMO, I think the best route for maxing your effiency in dps is not by only theorycrafting, or only by experience/data sampling, it's way better to use a cycle between both to validate the theory. For example:

1.Play and get data samples.
2.Construct mathematical model based from data samples.
3.Validate model over existing data samples, re-adapt 2 if needed, or go back to 1 if more samples is needed.
4.Play some more with different variables: group-makup, buffs, consumables, gears, talents, etc.
5.Revalidate mathematical model based from new samples, go back to 2 if something needs to change in your model.

Rapparee · 10/17/08, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Juice

I guess WWS isn't updated to 3.0 combat logs yet.

Convert your combatlog from 3.0.x to 2.4.x

I read the first couple threads on the wowwebstats.com forums and found that link to a downconvertor for combat logs. It takes 3.0 logs and can convert most of them to something that WWS does read properly.

It's not the best solution to WWS not reading 3.0.x logs, but it at least works for the meantime.

lolshamans · 10/17/08, 2:30 PM

If that can help with some numbers, here's the wws for Genesis' clears of BT and Sunwell last night (look for Noobshock).

Wow Web Stats

That's with an almost full set of sunwell gear, hit cap and 47/14 spec.

edit: either way, output in a raid buffed environment at 70, while not bad per se, is by and large irrelevant. A quick glance at the talent tree shows that a whole lot of nothing has been done in terms of scaling for elemental nukes, which is likely to get elemental shaman benched when gear starts to shine on other casters and not them, in the more challenging raid zones. Not exactly exciting, and deja vu.

Scaredofbees · 10/17/08, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by lolshamans

If that can help with some numbers, here's the wws for Genesis' clears of BT and Sunwell last night (look for Noobshock).

Wow Web Stats

That's with an almost full set of sunwell gear, hit cap and 47/14 spec.

63% crit, wow.

Character Sheet = 32.86%
Talents = 10%
Elemental Oath/Moonkin = 5%
Totem of Wrath/Crusader = 3%
Flametounge Glyph = 2%

Where is this other ~10% crit coming from?

Ocyr · 10/17/08, 2:57 PM

edit: never mind then, someone found the missing crit.

lolshamans · 10/17/08, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Scaredofbees

63% crit, wow.

Character Sheet = 32.86%
Talents = 10%
Elemental Oath/Moonkin = 5%
Totem of Wrath/Crusader = 3%
Flametounge Glyph = 2%

Where is this other ~10% crit coming from?

Mage buff adds 3%, does that stack?
"focused magic" I believe.

Roywyn · 10/17/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by lolshamans

Mage buff adds 3%, does that stack?

That is on one single raid member of choice.

Improved Scorch/Winter's Chill is 10% raidwide crit, exactly what you're missing.

anyakaschala · 10/17/08, 6:48 PM

I've been perusing the beta boards and there are some interesting blues

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Please relook elemental shaman (a druid plea)
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Blue avoiding AoE issue like plague
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> GC: Bliizard's internal spreadsheets

First, they seem to be talking a lot about us now at least.

They seem to be admitting we are not doing the damage they expected us to at 70 with 3.0.2
They also acknowledge our lack of AE and are looking into it, with hopefully a fix coming before LK (I'm guessing here)
They also seem to think that LvB is the fix for our rotation at 80.

tufy · 10/17/08, 7:04 PM

It is part of the fix (the base damage), but as Daidalos put it a few posts back, we still need a wee bit extra scaling to keep up with other casters. Still, admitting you were wrong is the first step to solution

Mentioning AoE comes as a surprise to me, though. I always considered Shamans more of a single target class and I even looked at Thunderstorm as a defensive AoE mechanism rather than true AoE spell. Even the mention of improving our AoE brings a whole new potential aspect to the class. But, let's not rush ourselves, we may still be in for a long wait before anything is actually done.

EDIT: Also, check these glyph changes:

* Glyph of Totem of Wrath has been removed.
* Glyph of Lava - Your Lava Burst spell gains an additional 10% of your spellpower
* Glyph of Elemental Mastery - Reduces the cooldown of your Elemental Mastery ability by 30 sec.
* Glyph of Flame Shock - Increases the duration of your Flame Shock ability by 6 sec and it is not consumed by casting Lava Burst. (Old - 3 seconds, didn't prevent Lava Burst from consuming it)

Last one is a major change to our spell rotation, we will actually be able to get two Lava Bursts off in one Flame Shock rotation and will not get any ticks consumed. Other three have lesser, but still very big impact to the way elemental will perform. Calculating tomorrow in the morning, if someone doesn't beat me :p

Njald · 10/17/08, 7:13 PM

One of Ghostcrawlers latest posts on the Beta Shaman forums reiterated the statement that Elemental Shamans fear nothing at 80. We have yet to fully deduce if this is based on large changes coming soon (existing in internal builds) or if it's just forum damage control. (some people clain plain ignorance but that seems unlikely at this point imho)

From what we've seen so far on Live after the 3.0.2 patch, it does seem as if Elemental's dps is a little lower than where we hoped it would be. We still don't think it's going to be a problem at 80, which is a conclusion we draw from a lot of testing and conversations with smart players both here and across the community.

Source

Someone posted a snippet of conversation that the poster claimed to have had with GC him/herself at Blizzcon confirming that statements like these where based on internal builds that indeed did adress the problems discussed in this thread and many other places.

EJ forums seems like a good as any place to find "smart players across the community". So my question (and my reason for this post) is :
Have any of the more prominent members in this thread or the EJ community have had any lengthy discussions with developers on this subject, and if so would you be able to discuss the contents of such discussions?

I do not find it farfetched, especially in the light of GC comments, that they actually had sitdowns (virtual ones) with the best/favorite theorycrafters/BETA-testers from a community such as this. Even if it would be little more than "Hey, we are going with _insert-new-concept/mechanic_, what's your take on it?" it would still be interesting to hear.

Last two posts before I managed to get mine up had some clues towards the "internal patch"-miracle. But even so I'm still interested to find out if any of you guys/gals are the "smart people" GC refers to.

Agash · 10/17/08, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Scaredofbees

63% crit, wow.

Character Sheet = 32.86%
Talents = 10%
Elemental Oath/Moonkin = 5%
Totem of Wrath/Crusader = 3%
Flametounge Glyph = 2%

Where is this other ~10% crit coming from?

The 10% is from Improved Scorch or Winter's Bite from Fire or Frost Mages respectively.

Edit - Apologies - noticed this has already been answered.

missiletoad · 10/17/08, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by anyakaschala

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Please relook elemental shaman (a druid plea)
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Blue avoiding AoE issue like plague
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> GC: Bliizard's internal spreadsheets

Hot damn, those are some encouraging posts. What they have in mind for "better AoE" has me very curious. It could either be something great, but the cynic in me is whispering something about a lower Fire Nova cooldown

. We'll see soon I hope.

Regarding the Lava Burst damage change and the new glyph of Flame Shock, I'm looking forward to what you mathletes come up for in theoretical lvl 80 calculations.

Medicine Man · 10/17/08, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by anyakaschala

They also seem to think that LvB is the fix for our rotation at 80.

This is what I'm really curious about. Is Lava Burst good enough cover both our present deficit and whatever additional ground other casters gain on us heading to 80? I'm not so sure. I'm also still quite concerned that Blizzard appears to be balancing for level 80 and not considering "level 80 + two raid instances"-worth of gear. GC has stated that scaling is on their radar but I'm not convinced they are looking that far ahead.

Some thoughts: With +10% spell coefficient going onto our lava burst and a flame shock that will safely continue ticking through two lava burst casts, how much of our total (%) damage is going to be fire-based? Although those lava burst crits are going to be frighteningly huge, I don't see how fire is going to be more than 35% of our damage, due to cooldown times. Is our fire damage going to be significant enough that it will close the distance with other casters *and* keep us in sight of them as gear starts to accumulate?