Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 62

Zomglazerpew · 10/31/08, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by whave

Seems like you have not heard about the new FlS gylph which will prevent LvB from consuming the dot.

Wait I looked around for the Flameshock glyph you where talking about, and I don't see it. Is it currently in Live or is it a Wrath glyph.

whave · 10/31/08, 5:49 AM

Looks like you were not really looking around

World of Raids | New Beta Build - 9095

Ezareth · 10/31/08, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Here's the problem with a 25% Int -> Spellpower change to Flametongue. Assuming a Enhance shaman uses two FT imbued weapons, here's the scaling:

A 20 Int gem gives 22 Int if Enhance goes 5/5 AK.

22 Int * 0.5 (2 FTs) = 11 Spellpower

22 Int becomes 22 attack power with Mental Dexterity.

In combat, 22 attack power gets a 10% bonus from unleashed rage: 24.2 AP

24.2 AP * 0.3 (MQ) = 7.26 spellpower

So 1 20 Int gem gives 18.26 spellpower, 24.2 AP, and 0.13% Spell Critical. Not to mention benefits from replenishment and the actual mana itself.

That would be enough to make Int Enhance's best stat after they are hit capped for spells.

By your same example if there were a 20 Int Gem then the Attack Power equivalent gem would be 40 Attack Power.

I know next to nothing about Enhancement so correct me if I'm wrong here but 40*.3=12 spell power.

Wouldn't 40 AP and 12 SP be better than 24.2 AP and 18.26 Spellpower, .13 spellcrit?

Especially considering AP is made more effective through Windfury procs(on the mainhand) than flametongue at least from what I understand of enhancement, then 40AP would still be more useful than 20 Int even considering the mana gains.

gothic · 11/01/08, 3:33 AM

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, could someone explain to me if anything besides Concussion directly modifies the base damage of Lightning Bolt? I'm thinking no, but I'll be damned if I'm missing something here (and missed it when I searched the forums).

If Rank 12 LB does 563-643 damage, and with Concussion adding another 5% to that, shouldn't the base damage range be 591-675? According to my tooltip ingame, the damage range is 599-684, which is a 6.5% increase over the base damage according to Wowhead.

I'm trying to write a simulator/modeler in VB, and my LB spam values keep coming up ~30-40 damage short (Naked), so I was looking around trying to find reasons (Are the formulas I am using wrong? Are the spell values in the tooltip wrong? etc), and I happened to notice the difference in the damage ranges from what my game tells me to what Wowhead tells me.

Thanks, and again I apologize for such a braindead question.

Edit: Well, after firing a few hundred Lightning Bolts at a training dummy, I cannot get my damage outside the lowend range of the tooltip, and the highend goes past the Wowhead*1.05 value.

Lares · 11/01/08, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by gothic

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, could someone explain to me if anything besides Concussion directly modifies the base damage of Lightning Bolt? I'm thinking no, but I'll be damned if I'm missing something here (and missed it when I searched the forums).

If Rank 12 LB does 563-643 damage, and with Concussion adding another 5% to that, shouldn't the base damage range be 591-675? According to my tooltip ingame, the damage range is 599-684, which is a 6.5% increase over the base damage according to Wowhead.

I'm trying to write a simulator/modeler in VB, and my LB spam values keep coming up ~30-40 damage short (Naked), so I was looking around trying to find reasons (Are the formulas I am using wrong? Are the spell values in the tooltip wrong? etc), and I happened to notice the difference in the damage ranges from what my game tells me to what Wowhead tells me.

Thanks, and again I apologize for such a braindead question.

Edit: Well, after firing a few hundred Lightning Bolts at a training dummy, I cannot get my damage outside the lowend range of the tooltip, and the highend goes past the Wowhead*1.05 value.

The values in the ingame tooltip should be right. Lightning Bolt rank 12 is learned at level 67 and wowhead displays the damage range at level 67. The damage increases while you level up to 70.

gothic · 11/01/08, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lares

The values in the ingame tooltip should be right. Lightning Bolt rank 12 is learned at level 67 and wowhead displays the damage range at level 67. The damage increases while you level up to 70.

Sad. I've been playing since shortly after release and never noticed it do that before. Many thanks for the quick answer. Do you know if it's a static .5% per level across the board (Including other classes, level 1-70?) I'll have to look that up. Very interesting.

Medicine Man · 11/01/08, 7:53 PM

I've popped a thread into the damage dealers Blizzard forum:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Elemental -- beyond 80

While I agree that it is premature to be drawing conclusions, I don't think it is premature to start drawing attention to the entirely predictable scaling issues elemental is going to encounter as WotLK progresses.

Medicine Man · 11/02/08, 3:26 AM

Ghostcrawler just threw down the gauntlet regarding spell scaling for elemental shaman:

In our testing, Elemental did single-target dps in various levels of Naxx gear that was on par with other dps specs.

But since there seems to be a concern among Elementals that they don't scale well with gear, I'll put a blue on this thread to give them a chance to explain those concerns.

Here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Ghostcrawler a Elemental question for you

I freely admit that I mostly follow the discussions on EJ, not drive them. If you blokes are convinced that there is a long-term scaling weakness being built into the elemental shaman damage model, this thread GC has marked is a good enough opportunity to bring things to their attention -- hopefully before it becomes a total gong show over there.

As I've stated elsewhere, I find the dearth of gear synergies in the elemental talent tree very suggestive of future problems. I do not have the data, simulations, or complex math to make a truly convincing case for it though. I hope some of you gents will stop by and give GC the executive summary (up-to-date) of what the anticipated problem with post-80 advancement for elemental shaman will be.

I plan on sleeping on it and then taking my best shot tomorrow.

Daidalos · 11/02/08, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Medicine Man

Ghostcrawler just threw down the gauntlet regarding spell scaling for elemental shaman:

Here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Ghostcrawler a Elemental question for you

I freely admit that I mostly follow the discussions on EJ, not drive them. If you blokes are convinced that there is a long-term scaling weakness being built into the elemental shaman damage model, this thread GC has marked is a good enough opportunity to bring things to their attention -- hopefully before it becomes a total gong show over there.

As I've stated elsewhere, I find the dearth of gear synergies in the elemental talent tree very suggestive of future problems. I do not have the data, simulations, or complex math to make a truly convincing case for it though. I hope some of you gents will stop by and give GC the executive summary (up-to-date) of what the anticipated problem with post-80 advancement for elemental shaman will be.

I plan on sleeping on it and then taking my best shot tomorrow.

I think some of the elemental concerns about scaling might be overly paranoid. The big question so far is "At what rate do all of the dif casters scale?" and I don't know the answer for the other classes and attempts to get solid numbers for all classes has been mostly unsuccessful. I think any qq of ele scaling needs to be backed up by solid TC numbers from other classes not half understood guessing from people who don't play those classes. I'm not saying for sure that we will scale at the same rate but so far its looking on par from what I know.

Ocyr · 11/02/08, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I think some of the elemental concerns about scaling might be overly paranoid. The big question so far is "At what rate do all of the dif casters scale?" and I don't know the answer for the other classes and attempts to get solid numbers for all classes has been mostly unsuccessful. I think any qq of ele scaling needs to be backed up by solid TC numbers from other classes not half understood guessing from people who don't play those classes. I'm not saying for sure that we will scale at the same rate but so far its looking on par from what I know.

Except, the last 15 pages of this thread of full of simulations and comparisons of all the various caster classes and specs, and Elemental Shaman are still dead last in DPS and scaling.

What is the history of GC's comments about Elemental Shaman?

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

*Elemental Shaman are too powerful

*We think Elemental Shaman do too much damage

*Whoops we messed up on our spreadsheets, and are buffing Elemental Shaman because their damage is less than 1/2 other caster DPS

*OK **NOW** we think Elemental Shaman are overpowered

*Yep we now think Elemental Shaman Nature spells scale too well

*What's that, how come level 70 Shaman DPS is lower than Prot Paladin DPS if Lightning damage scales so well? You don't have Fire spells yet, that's why. (lolwut)

*OK whoops, we messed up our spreadsheets again, so we are buffing Fire damage yet again and adding even newer Fire-specific Glyphs

*OK now we really really really think Elemental Shaman are overpowered, and we know this because we have compared their DPS and scaling to absolutely no other class, and we can't even give you an estimate on where their DPS and DPS scaling stands relative to any other class. Just take our word for it, you are overpowered.

And you wonder why people believe the math on this forum over Blizzards math? Their math is about as accurate as mine, when I was in the second grade. (edit: and for the record, I already did the math on Balance Druid vs Elemental Shaman as of this latest patch, and Elemental came up about 9% short -- as I have previously posted. I'll be done with Mage and Warlock comparisons this week hopefully. And 9% is huge, by the way, when you are comparing yourself to another Hybrid caster that brings the better buffs to the raid than you do.).

Daidalos · 11/02/08, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ocyr

Except, the last 15 pages of this thread of full of simulations and comparisons of all the various caster classes and specs, and Elemental Shaman are still dead last in DPS and scaling.

In the comparison I did with Bink I saw elemental scaling was on par with mages (its possible the mage calcs were off but they seemed right to my rather mage-ignorant scruity)I think people are confusing dps with scaling. I do think ele sham need a dps buff (the glpyhs help with but I'd much rather not be so dependent on them) but thats a dif issue than scaling

Ocyr · 11/03/08, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I do think ele sham need a dps buff (the glpyhs help with but I'd much rather not be so dependent on them) but thats a dif issue than scaling

It isn't a different issue at all.

There are two ways to address DPS buffing (and nerfing).

1) increase (or reduce) base damage

2) increase (or reduce) scaling (via cast time changes, coefficient modifiers, et cetera).

It's the same exact issue. The difference is, the first method (that Blizzard likes to use is a crutch for not having spent any real effort/time in the talent tree) is a short-term bandage and terrible long-term, and the second method is what has to happen for the spec to actually not be walking a tightrope every single expansion, or even every single new tier of gearing.

It was said several weeks ago -- if Blizzard is going to overcome the broken state of Shaman Nature-damage casting at 80 with Fire and Fire alone, they'd have to double the damage and scaling of Fire. Since then they've upped Fire contribution by more than 50%, and overall DPS and scaling is still falling short. Just another 50% to go, since they don't want to do the smart thing and just add a talent modifier like +10% damage to all damage.

Wildwary · 11/03/08, 9:18 AM

Ghostcrawler just recently respnded to a comparisation between elemental and balance. I'm pritty sure it wasn't posted here before:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Elemental Theorcrafing

I don't think this looks like very solid math, even though I'm no math expert at all. Please go poke some holes!

I also think it's wierd that it looks like he didn't use a 18 sec rotation (?)

dedmonwakeen · 11/03/08, 10:40 AM

A soon-to-be checked in version of SimulationCraft generated the following scale factors (T7 level, Chaotic Meta, No set bonuses)

Scale Factors:
 Druid_58_0_13_SF           spell_power=1.13  hit_rating=1.71 crit_rating=0.68  haste_rating=0.97
 Druid_58_0_13_W            spell_power=1.05  hit_rating=1.56 crit_rating=0.59  haste_rating=0.56
 Mage_0_53_18               spell_power=1.35  hit_rating=1.19 crit_rating=1.01  haste_rating=1.07
 Mage_18_0_53               spell_power=1.32  hit_rating=1.66 crit_rating=0.39  haste_rating=0.97
 Mage_20_51_0               spell_power=1.43  hit_rating=2.08 crit_rating=0.87  haste_rating=1.23
 Mage_52_19_0               spell_power=1.18  hit_rating=1.95 crit_rating=0.70  haste_rating=0.83
 Mage_52_19_0_Slow          spell_power=1.06  hit_rating=1.74 crit_rating=0.65  haste_rating=0.93
 Priest_14_0_57             spell_power=1.28  hit_rating=1.46 crit_rating=0.80  haste_rating=0.70
 Priest_14_0_57_NoSWD       spell_power=1.29  hit_rating=1.45 crit_rating=0.79  haste_rating=0.74
 Priest_38_28_5             spell_power=0.59  hit_rating=1.10 crit_rating=0.31  haste_rating=0.05
 Shaman_55_16_0             spell_power=0.86  hit_rating=1.67 crit_rating=0.47  haste_rating=0.37
 Warlock_0_53_18            spell_power=0.97  hit_rating=1.52 crit_rating=0.70  haste_rating=0.71
 Warlock_2_13_56            spell_power=1.68  hit_rating=1.97 crit_rating=0.70  haste_rating=1.04
 Warlock_56_0_15            spell_power=1.48  hit_rating=1.61 crit_rating=0.62  haste_rating=0.87
 Warlock_56_0_15_CoE        spell_power=1.43  hit_rating=1.63 crit_rating=0.64  haste_rating=0.92
 Warlock_56_0_15_NoDS       spell_power=1.35  hit_rating=1.77 crit_rating=0.74  haste_rating=0.59

Nothing really unexpected...... Elemental Shaman scaling is in a troubled state.....

EDIT: For perspective, here are the baseline DPS values that were generated in the same run:

DPS Ranking:
 74410 100.0%  Raid
  5319   7.1%  Warlock_56_0_15
  5161   6.9%  Mage_20_51_0
  5103   6.8%  Warlock_56_0_15_CoE
  4978   6.7%  Warlock_56_0_15_NoDS
  4828   6.5%  Priest_14_0_57
  4804   6.4%  Mage_0_53_18
  4801   6.4%  Priest_14_0_57_NoSWD
  4693   6.3%  Warlock_2_13_56
  4512   6.0%  Mage_52_19_0
  4423   5.9%  Druid_58_0_13_SF
  4142   5.6%  Warlock_0_53_18
  4131   5.5%  Druid_58_0_13_W
  4090   5.5%  Mage_18_0_53
  4057   5.4%  Mage_52_19_0_Slow
  3708   5.0%  Shaman_55_16_0
  2385   3.2%  Priest_38_28_5

Daidalos · 11/03/08, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

A soon-to-be checked in version of SimulationCraft generated the following scale factors (T7 level, Chaotic Meta, No set bonuses)

Scale Factors:
 Druid_58_0_13_SF           spell_power=1.13  hit_rating=1.71 crit_rating=0.68  haste_rating=0.97
 Druid_58_0_13_W            spell_power=1.05  hit_rating=1.56 crit_rating=0.59  haste_rating=0.56
 Mage_0_53_18               spell_power=1.35  hit_rating=1.19 crit_rating=1.01  haste_rating=1.07
 Mage_18_0_53               spell_power=1.32  hit_rating=1.66 crit_rating=0.39  haste_rating=0.97
 Mage_20_51_0               spell_power=1.43  hit_rating=2.08 crit_rating=0.87  haste_rating=1.23
 Mage_52_19_0               spell_power=1.18  hit_rating=1.95 crit_rating=0.70  haste_rating=0.83
 Mage_52_19_0_Slow          spell_power=1.06  hit_rating=1.74 crit_rating=0.65  haste_rating=0.93
 Priest_14_0_57             spell_power=1.28  hit_rating=1.46 crit_rating=0.80  haste_rating=0.70
 Priest_14_0_57_NoSWD       spell_power=1.29  hit_rating=1.45 crit_rating=0.79  haste_rating=0.74
 Priest_38_28_5             spell_power=0.59  hit_rating=1.10 crit_rating=0.31  haste_rating=0.05
 Shaman_55_16_0             spell_power=0.86  hit_rating=1.67 crit_rating=0.47  haste_rating=0.37
 Warlock_0_53_18            spell_power=0.97  hit_rating=1.52 crit_rating=0.70  haste_rating=0.71
 Warlock_2_13_56            spell_power=1.68  hit_rating=1.97 crit_rating=0.70  haste_rating=1.04
 Warlock_56_0_15            spell_power=1.48  hit_rating=1.61 crit_rating=0.62  haste_rating=0.87
 Warlock_56_0_15_CoE        spell_power=1.43  hit_rating=1.63 crit_rating=0.64  haste_rating=0.92
 Warlock_56_0_15_NoDS       spell_power=1.35  hit_rating=1.77 crit_rating=0.74  haste_rating=0.59

Nothing really unexpected...... Elemental Shaman scaling is in a troubled state.....

EDIT: For perspective, here are the baseline DPS values that were generated in the same run:

What units are these in? I haven't had much time to play with the sim but the numbers don't seem to match my spreadsheets

Roywyn · 11/03/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

What units are these in? I haven't had much time to play with the sim but the numbers don't seem to match my spreadsheets

I'm guessing that they are the DPS gain of 1 spell power / crit rating / haste rating.
Measured in absolute DPS. Not sure, but it would be my guess.

dedmonwakeen · 11/03/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

What units are these in? I haven't had much time to play with the sim but the numbers don't seem to match my spreadsheets

To confirm Roywyn's post: Yes, they are in units of absolute dps....... at this very particular gear point and particular raid setup.

A while back I did a very detailed comparison against Binke's spreadsheet. I highlighted some errors for him and found some problems in my own code, too. I'm in the process of doing a review against Enhsim. When that is complete, I'll be happy to do the same with your spreadsheet. I exit these reviews with at least one tweak to SimulationCraft, so its usually worth the effort.

In general, the biggest source of difference (given exact same model) is that I tend to be more pessimistic about the vagaries of human reaction time and network latency..... especially with channeled spells and instants. The fact that I use a priority system as opposed to a fixed rotation will also reduce my dps since DoTs and CD-driven spells won't be hitting their cooldowns dead-on.

Ezareth · 11/03/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

To confirm Roywyn's post: Yes, they are in units of absolute dps....... at this very particular gear point and particular raid setup.

A while back I did a very detailed comparison against Binke's spreadsheet. I highlighted some errors for him and found some problems in my own code, too. I'm in the process of doing a review against Enhsim. When that is complete, I'll be happy to do the same with your spreadsheet. I exit these reviews with at least one tweak to SimulationCraft, so its usually worth the effort.

In general, the biggest source of difference (given exact same model) is that I tend to be more pessimistic about the vagaries of human reaction time and network latency..... especially with channeled spells and instants. The fact that I use a priority system as opposed to a fixed rotation will also reduce my dps since DoTs and CD-driven spells won't be hitting their cooldowns dead-on.

Yeah this is my single largest concern for Shaman DPS.

I'm willing to bet that Blizzards "Spreadsheets" don't include our shorter cast times and convoluted cast-cycle when compare to some other classes.

Can anyone give a quick list of the "perfect" DPS cycle for the other caster classes to compare?

Ocyr · 11/03/08, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Wildwary

Ghostcrawler just recently respnded to a comparisation between elemental and balance. I'm pritty sure it wasn't posted here before:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Elemental Theorcrafing

I don't think this looks like very solid math, even though I'm no math expert at all. Please go poke some holes!

I also think it's wierd that it looks like he didn't use a 18 sec rotation (?)

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Elemental Theorycrafting

That post uses an 18 second rotation and expands on dedmonwakeen's data.Not exactly a direct rebuttal to the thread you posted, more like a counter-thread.

Binkenstein · 11/03/08, 7:59 PM

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...9NlzrKGw&hl=en

My copy of the math from that thread.

Just pip 4k dps with the listed gear/buffs/etc (2.8k spellpower, 43% crit (+5% for nature) hit capped and 19.17% haste)

Binkenstein · 11/03/08, 10:55 PM

What's the current mechanic (and the intended) for the Earth Shock Glyph?

Daidalos · 11/04/08, 2:07 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

What's the current mechanic (and the intended) for the Earth Shock Glyph?

Currently it takes ES down to the low end limit of the GCD i.e. 1s I think there is a post in the beta forums about it with a blue response since it in effect only takes .5s off instead of 1s like the glyph says. If they are going to fix this or not its not entirely clear.

gothic · 11/04/08, 3:04 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Currently it takes ES down to the low end limit of the GCD i.e. 1s I think there is a post in the beta forums about it with a blue response since it in effect only takes .5s off instead of 1s like the glyph says. If they are going to fix this or not its not entirely clear.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - GC, bug with the Earth Shock glyph

This was the only post I could find on it when I went searching around the other day.

tufy · 11/04/08, 3:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ocyr

And you wonder why people believe the math on this forum over Blizzards math? Their math is about as accurate as mine, when I was in the second grade. (edit: and for the record, I already did the math on Balance Druid vs Elemental Shaman as of this latest patch, and Elemental came up about 9% short -- as I have previously posted. I'll be done with Mage and Warlock comparisons this week hopefully. And 9% is huge, by the way, when you are comparing yourself to another Hybrid caster that brings the better buffs to the raid than you do.).

Doing the same as you right now (boomkin vs. elesham vs. fire mage) and the results in dps difference were even greater than yours (I'm not sure about a few modifiers on boomkins, though; inquiry in progress :p). It should be noted, though, that I'm using the optimum available gear at current T7, with optimum available rotations. Btw., geared up in best available gear right now, we'll be at slightly over 19% haste without gemming (which I had to spend nearly all on hit to cap it anyway; I ended up with 3 reds + 2 BS gem slots empty). So much for trying to avoid negative haste hole :p

Othinn · 11/04/08, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...9NlzrKGw&hl=en

My copy of the math from that thread.

Just pip 4k dps with the listed gear/buffs/etc (2.8k spellpower, 43% crit (+5% for nature) hit capped and 19.17% haste)

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see you including any Totem(Totem of Hex) in your calculations?