Elemental Wotlk Talents discussion - Page 7

joe_in_hell · 06/19/08, 10:36 AM

I do not like the idea to consume another shamans shock.
First: It can produce very low flameshock-uptimes if 2 shamans want to lavaburst
Second: It makes the elemental shaman weaker. He needs another shaman for his own damage, very strange for a supporter! The Problem could be solved by incresing the range of all shocks, at least far enough to stay at "shadowpriest range" which is enough for many AoE Effects. Perhaps they could add this to Storm Reach, which otherwise is crap for PvE (not increasing lavaburst range)

Tejs · 06/19/08, 11:08 AM

I'm not very happy with Elemental Oath as it currently stands. Another talent giving us +hit is not something shaman need, and the values on it are not conducive. For example, we can get +9% Spell Hit from talents (still speccing that one resto talent), why would we need another 50-100% spell hit chance? We still get more than most casters. There would have to be a serious lack of +hit on our gear in the expansion to warrant taking the talent. Even assuming not +hit on our class sets, that leaves rings, neck, back, and trinkets to make up the difference without having to worry about a proc based +hit.

It seems to me especially in light of the Weapon Specialization change coming in that Elemental Oath could be changed to spell haste (not 50/100 mind you). Everyone would take the talent then if it gave you 5/10 spell haste or something. More like a talent based Skycall Totem effect as it were.

Vernichter · 06/19/08, 11:37 AM

Pitbuller and count both seem to be hitting the nail on the head with regards to Elemental Oath. Hit-capping is not mandatory. In the present environment it is perceived to be mandatory because it provides better return for a given amount of itemization points than any other stat. At the end of the day, though, the goal is to get the most damage possible from a given amount of itemization points and talents, and with that premise, Elemental Oath is amazing. At a minimum, it hit-caps the first two spells after a Lava Burst, which is itself hit-capped.

I took a few minutes to determine the probable number of "miss-able" spells during a 6-spell cycle: LVB>LB>CL>LB>LB>LB. The cycle would obviously vary if the shaman had to supply his own Flameshock (which would have a lower crit rate), but if we assume that LvB is used at the first GCD after its cooldown, the cycle should be close to that shown. In any case, I found that with a 30% crit rate, spell hit would apply to ~1.07 spells per 6 spell rotation. That is less than half a percent lower than the effective 98% hit chance that others are reporting, but at a much more reasonable crit rate. In a Moonkin group and with a Ret paladin in the raid, the player would only need ~4.5% spell crit from gear.

I do not like the mechanic of Elemental Oath for a number of reasons, most notably because it makes a stat undesirable, limiting our gear options. It is also absurd that Oath is a two-point talent. However, the upside is that for one talent point it really is quite amazing, and it does free up a bunch of itemization points. If I can get hit-free gear I will surely take the ~5-6% spell hit boost provided by one point in Elemental Oath.

Daidalos · 06/19/08, 12:57 PM

Running some prelim numbers on oath to see how it matched up with others TC. Seems fairly close. I Put FS into the rotation since its currently quite good dps with scorch x5 and CoE so looking at the new talents that help it I'm going to assume its worth using but will depend on mana regen and many other things. I was going to use 2 roll system but it gave me cyclic dependancy problems so in game crit rate will be slightly lower.

[

Hit from talents+ gear	9
Chance to hit w/o oath/EF	92
Ele Oath Hit chance	99
Crit from talents+gear	30

	LaB	FS	CL	LB	LB	LB
crit chance	100	30	40	40	40	40
non-critchance	0	70	60	60	60	60
EF up chance	0.64	1	0.307	0.58	0.64	0.64
average hit w/ ele Oath	96.48	99	94.149	96.06	96.48	96.48
cast time	2	1.5	1.5	2	2	2

avg hit for rotation	96.4415
total cast time for rotation	11

Lets look at hit scaling:

Hit from talents+ gear	12
Chance to hit w/o oath/EF	95
Ele Oath Hit chance	99
Crit from talents+gear	30

	LaB	FS	CL	LB	LB	LB
crit chance	100	30	40	40	40	40
non-critchance	0	70	60	60	60	60
EF up chance	0.64	1	1	0.58	0.64	0.64
average hit w/ ele Oath	97.56	99	99	97.32	97.56	97.56
cast time	2	1.5	1.5	2	2	2

avg hit for rotation	98
total cast time for rotation	11

Crit scaling:

Hit from talents+ gear	9
Chance to hit w/o oath/EF	92
Ele Oath Hit chance	99
Crit from talents+gear	33

	LaB	FS	CL	LB	LB	LB
crit chance	100	33	43	43	43	43
non-critchance	0	67	57	57	57	57
EF up chance	0.6751	1	1	0.6181	0.6751	0.6751
average hit w/ ele Oath	96.7257	99	99	96.3267	96.7257	96.7257
cast time	2	1.5	1.5	2	2	2

avg hit for rotation	97.4173
total cast time for rotation	11

The cycle that is used will dramatically affect the value of crit->hit due to 2 spells (a large percentage of the rotation) always being on EF.
Note: This is just a cursory look I am not using a 2 roll system and since the dps of these spells is currently unknown the weights for hit and crit cannot be truely calculated to give any gear advice at this time.

PSGarak · 06/19/08, 1:45 PM

While hit rating on gear becomes very undesirable with Elemental Oath (unless you're scizo paranoid about the RNG giving you forty misses in a row), hit rating also makes Elemental Oath undesirable. If the itemization team shoves more hit rating down your throat again that will make EO a useless talent, despite that it's a really great talent on its own.

• Aeolian · 06/19/08, 2:16 PM

I read through quickly because I am at work, so I apologize if it was missed this if it was discussed already. Anyways, IF by chance Lava Burst does consume any Flame Shock that is currently on the target, and not just your own, Elemental Shamans may be competing with Enhancement Shamans that use Fist Weapons.

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Weapon Specialization is being changed in a upcoming patch for the fist weapon bonus to instead be "When you crit with a fist weapon, reduces the cast time of your next spell by 20%. This effect can stack up to 5 times.".

Shamans: Upcoming Weapon Specialization Change

Using a rotation involving SS, ES, FS, and LvB (assuming that using LvB as an instant cast spell doesn't reset our swing timers) will probably be the best DPS rotation for us. It is still a bit early in testing though, and I would really like to see some information pertaining to how these Instant spells affect our swing timers. If it doesn't reset them, hopefully Lava Burst consumes your personal Flame Shock and leaves other spells alone. I would assume that Blizzard wouldn't allow these Instant spells to reset our swing timers considering our melee damage is what gave us the instant spell, and I would also assume that they wouldn't be so blind as to allow one Lava Burst to consume multiple Flame Shocks. But only time will tell.

• Chicken · 06/19/08, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

While hit rating on gear becomes very undesirable with Elemental Oath (unless you're scizo paranoid about the RNG giving you forty misses in a row), hit rating also makes Elemental Oath undesirable. If the itemization team shoves more hit rating down your throat again that will make EO a useless talent, despite that it's a really great talent on its own.

I actually vaguely wonder if Elemental Oath is an attempt at making a talent that would mean both Restoration and Elemental Shamans could use the same gear. Unless it's being changed hit rating would be undesirable for a Restoration Shaman, so adding a talent to Elemental Shamans which makes it less desirable than other stats would allow for both to use (close to) the same gear.

Whether that'll work out in practice is something entirely different of course.

Corvin. · 06/19/08, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by Vernichter

I took a few minutes to determine the probable number of "miss-able" spells during a 6-spell cycle: LVB>LB>CL>LB>LB>LB. (...) In any case, I found that with a 30% crit rate, spell hit would apply to ~1.07 spells per 6 spell rotation. That is less than half a percent lower than the effective 98% hit chance that others are reporting, but at a much more reasonable crit rate.

Originally Posted by Daidalos

I was going to use 2 roll system but it gave me cyclic dependancy problems so in game crit rate will be slightly lower.

I took a shot at calculating this using 2-roll system. I started with a Lava Burst under EO (from say EM) and went from there. The cycle stabilises after only two turns (the probability differences are lost to rounding to 3 decimal places), so I assumed it was accurate enough for preliminary assessment.

With assumptions of: 0,92 hit without EO, 0,99 with EO, 0,3 crit chance for lightning spells, guaranteed crit for Lava Burst
and Vernichter's rotation of LV, CL, 4*LB (stealing Flame Shock from someone else) I arrived at ~0,657 EO uptime which gives effective hit chance of ~0,966, meaning EO is worth about 4,6% hit.

Torgol · 06/19/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Paladia

Elemental oath seems severely messed up in its current state. Why would you ever want to put more than one talent point into it? A 50% increase in hit chance would be just as good as 100% unless you face a mob that is 10 levels your senior.

I hadn't thought about this until I saw this post, but now I'm wondering. . . what if Elemental Oath doesn't set your hit chance to 100%, but rather increases your hit chance from talents and gear by 100%? This doesn't really change anything in terms of its overall effect, since most shaman would go from 9% to 18% hit when the buff is up with talents alone, still over the cap. But it does make the 2 point structure of the talent more sensible. Or were most people already reading it this way? The wording seemed to me to indicate that your spell hit chance was set to 100% with the buff up, but maybe not.

Originally Posted by Paladia

Also, do not count on using the FS of melee Shamans, as fist weapon specialization is being changed to decrease casting time of the next spell by 20% on a critical strike (stacks 5 times). Hence they will utilize their own FS in order to LaB to keep elemental devastation up.

While this is certainly a possibility, it ultimately turns into much the same argument that goes on over the Stormstrike debuff. Which is better for overall raid DPS? To let the Enhancement Shaman get the benefit of the SS charges (or FS-LavB combo) or leave them for the Elemental? It's safe to say that an Elemental Shaman's Lava Burst will hit for a good bit more than an Enhancement's, so a good team player Enhancement Shaman may be discouraged from consuming his own FS, though the Elemental Devastation bonus is also worth considering. It could go either way. Personally, though, I'd have to say that I tend to see this instant cast benefit from fist weapons as a more PvP-oriented burst damage tool.

Rhaegal · 06/19/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Torgol

I hadn't thought about this until I saw this post, but now I'm wondering. . . what if Elemental Oath doesn't set your hit chance to 100%, but rather increases your hit chance from talents and gear by 100%? This doesn't really change anything in terms of its overall effect, since most shaman would go from 9% to 18% hit when the buff is up with talents alone, still over the cap. But it does make the 2 point structure of the talent more sensible. Or were most people already reading it this way? The wording seemed to me to indicate that your spell hit chance was set to 100% with the buff up, but maybe not.

At 2 talent points, there isn't really any difference between setting it to 100% or increasing your hit chance from talents and gear by 100%, given that it increases from 9% to 18%, which is 2% over the maximum useful spell hit against a target 3 levels higher than you. That said, with only one talent point, you'd be looking at a 9% -> 13.5% hit change, which makes that second point not entirely useless, assuming you have no hit on your gear. If they're truly trying to combine elemental and resto gear into one class of items, that wouldn't surprise me, especially given the new focus of resto on spell crit.

Beregon · 06/19/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

I actually vaguely wonder if Elemental Oath is an attempt at making a talent that would mean both Restoration and Elemental Shamans could use the same gear. Unless it's being changed hit rating would be undesirable for a Restoration Shaman, so adding a talent to Elemental Shamans which makes it less desirable than other stats would allow for both to use (close to) the same gear.

Whether that'll work out in practice is something entirely different of course.

Several thoughts on this and as a Feral druid I think I have a little different perspective on it.

Assuming the cost of respecing remains constant, that 50G by level 80 is going to be a minor cost of raiding. Combined with druid (and shaman) ability to quickly get to a trainer and warlocks now able to summon into instances, I can already respect back and forth between Feral and Resto in under 2 minutes. Shaman are in a similar situation and the ability to do it is getting cheaper. With gear being the same, it will be very easy to go back and forth, bringing the DPS as Elemental when needed and the healing as Resto when needed. We may even begin to see less identification as specific specs within a class and more general identification as class members.

Ferals are currently unique in that for DPS even below hit-cap they're better off gemming/enchanting for Agility than for +Hit. We'll need to run the numbers, but Elemental Oath looks likely to put Elemental Shaman in a similar situation. Even if it does, it is not neccesarily the best way to spend the talents.

Lava Flow to me looks a lot like Elemental Weapons or Improved Weapon Totems. I believe Flametongue Weapon will be getting a +damage bonus and this just increases that bonus by 15%.

Assuming +hit will remain as easy to cap as it currently is, I believe the best Elemental spec with the talent trees as we're currently seeing may be to stop at Totem of Wrath and 2/3 Lava Flow then go down the Enhance tree to pick up Ancestral Knowledge/Mental Dexterity/Mental Quickness like Dra suggested above. While I don't like the spec as it's nearly as deep in Enhance as in Elemental, the ability to benefit not only from the normal caster buffs, but convert most melee buffs into +damage seem to give it huge potential as a Raid DPS caster spec.

Graze · 06/19/08, 6:26 PM

is mental dex/quickness outdoing 1 point in Lava Flows, 5% critt and 3% hit?

Say 700 int, that's 700 more AP, plus ~350 base AP, plus another ~300 from SoE totem, that's 1350 AP, (assuming no Might) = 405 extra +dmg, which is almost as good as the Flametongue portion of Lava Flows in itself based on the "best case" scenario I calculated earlier.

Note; We do not know anything about how they're "improving under used totem" or anything regarding how the spellpower change is affecting talents such as Mental Dext/Quickness.

Darian_TruBlade · 06/19/08, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by Beregon

Assuming the cost of respecing remains constant, that 50G by level 80 is going to be a minor cost of raiding. Combined with druid (and shaman) ability to quickly get to a trainer and warlocks now able to summon into instances, I can already respect back and forth between Feral and Resto in under 2 minutes. Shaman are in a similar situation and the ability to do it is getting cheaper. With gear being the same, it will be very easy to go back and forth, bringing the DPS as Elemental when needed and the healing as Resto when needed. We may even begin to see less identification as specific specs within a class and more general identification as class members.

Personally, the idea of constant respeccing iduring raids seems preposterous. Gold cost aside (I'm not sure it will be "trivial" though it will sting less), there is the time cost involved. Two minutes is enough to fail a ZA bear run. Also, the entire concept is distinctly hardcore at the deepest level. Under the very best of scenarios this wouldn't be a viable option for 90% of the raiding population.

Originally Posted by Beregon

Lava Flow to me looks a lot like Elemental Weapons or Improved Weapon Totems. I believe Flametongue Weapon will be getting a +damage bonus and this just increases that bonus by 15%.

The question is whether the +damage bonus is static or a % in and of itself. The 15% wouldn't necessarily be additive if it was working on a % value, as Demonic Aegis shows.

Buanna · 06/20/08, 1:16 AM

11 talents at tier 10 is mildly retarded. Especially when 5 of em are required for the 51 point talent.

I hope that gets fixed. Either Lava Flow or Thunder will be better, and the other will be completely unavailable.

Mirranda · 06/20/08, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by Vernichter

I do not like the mechanic of Elemental Oath for a number of reasons, most notably because it makes a stat undesirable, limiting our gear options. It is also absurd that Oath is a two-point talent. However, the upside is that for one talent point it really is quite amazing, and it does free up a bunch of itemization points. If I can get hit-free gear I will surely take the ~5-6% spell hit boost provided by one point in Elemental Oath.

Originally Posted by Chicken

I actually vaguely wonder if Elemental Oath is an attempt at making a talent that would mean both Restoration and Elemental Shamans could use the same gear. Unless it's being changed hit rating would be undesirable for a Restoration Shaman, so adding a talent to Elemental Shamans which makes it less desirable than other stats would allow for both to use (close to) the same gear.

Whether that'll work out in practice is something entirely different of course.

I think the second quote is truly the answer to the first. If they really are going through with this spellpower change, that means that elemental shamans will be using resto gear and vice versa, meaning that there probably WILL NOT be any spell hit on any of our actual armor, only by choice of rings/necks/trinkets/weapons will we be able to obtain spell hit. Thus this is a means by which to try to fix this gap of spell hit (and I mentioned this on the second and third page already, though it seems most people are bypassing this fact).

tufy · 06/20/08, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Mirranda

I think the second quote is truly the answer to the first. If they really are going through with this spellpower change, that means that elemental shamans will be using resto gear and vice versa, meaning that there probably WILL NOT be any spell hit on any of our actual armor, only by choice of rings/necks/trinkets/weapons will we be able to obtain spell hit. Thus this is a means by which to try to fix this gap of spell hit (and I mentioned this on the second and third page already, though it seems most people are bypassing this fact).

Might be, but it's a retarded system, as it doesn't assure the hit. This simply means elemental shamans will go for hit rings or weapons to cap themselves, dropping this talent.

Here's what I would do on Blizzard's place:
1. drop Elemental Oath altogether
2. Move Storm, Earth and Fire down to Elemental Oath's place, perhaps linking Lava Flow to it
3. Change Totem of Wrath to: "Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the chance to hit with spells by 6% for all party members within 20 yards. For each hit % that the party member cannot use, this member is granted 1% spell crit instead.
4. Link Thunder to Lightning Overload
5. Add Lava Flow and Flame Shock (and flame shock only) to Storm Reach (rename to Elemental Reach if needed)
6. New 5-point talent in tier 10: Fiery Wrath: each time your Lava Flow crits the target, your party members gain 1/2/3/4/5% spell damage increase for 10 seconds.

Basically, Totem of Wrath is changed to full haste boost up to the point when the player is capped against current target, then it increases crit instead. Storm Reach boosts Lava Flow and Flame Shock, making it useful for pve. The new 5% spell damage increase, on the other hand, gives Elemental Shamans a reason to support through dps. To be honest, I'd rather see haste, but Boomkins are already getting that, so...

Graze · 06/20/08, 5:32 AM

So is everyone comming to conclusion that there won't be any hit on the mail caster gear? Goodie.

It's pretty interesting how one talent grants "hit cap" for a single specc/class, while every other caster needs to gear for it. Why is it two points? Why would it be two points when 50% is far more than enough to reach the hit cap.
Can it mean 100% bypasses the 1% miss barrier?
I think that if it only works in that way that it doubles your current hit chance, it could have another tooltip.

It's a "funny and unique" idea really(Kinda like our totems). However I don't share others idea of it being a great talent, I see it (just like our totems) as a lack luster and I hope they give both a review.

EDIT: I just wrote a quick little simulator with a 2 roll system calculating EO uptime, hit and critt rate.
This is my output assuming 0.83 + 0.09 hit chance from talents alone over 1 million casts of pure LB spam with a 1% miss rate barrier(read: hit chance with EO is still max 0.99) and no Lightning overload:

20% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
944053 hits.
188785 critts.
===============
Hitrate: 94.4053%
EO uptime: 34.345%
Critrate: 18.878500000000003%

30% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
954536 hits.
286536 critts.
===============
Hitrate: 95.45360000000001%
EO uptime: 49.178%
Critrate: 28.6536%

40% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
963349 hits.
384728 critts.
===============
Hitrate: 96.3349%
EO uptime: 62.196%
Critrate: 38.4728%

50% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
971434 hits.
485915 critts.
===============
Hitrate: 97.1434%
EO uptime: 73.58930000000001%
Critrate: 48.591499999999996%

Critt rate is calculated critts/casts, not critts/hits.

Graze · 06/20/08, 8:05 AM

With a 5x LB, LaB rotation my sim gives this output, still a 99% hit cap and no Ligtning Overload:

20% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
801192 LB hits.
159378 LB critts.
===============
157408 LaB hits.
157408 LaB critts.
===============
32141 LB misses.
9259 LaB misses.
===============
LB Hitrate: 96.14307845723138%
LB Critrate: 19.12536765014706%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 94.44461111077777%
LaB Critrate: 94.44461111077777%
===============
EO uptime: 55.0775%
Total Hitrate: 95.86%

30% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
806695 LB hits.
241442 LB critts.
===============
158964 LaB hits.
158964 LaB critts.
===============
26638 LB misses.
7703 LaB misses.
===============
LB Hitrate: 96.80343872137549%
LB Critrate: 28.97305158922063%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 95.37820924358151%
LaB Critrate: 95.37820924358151%
===============
EO uptime: 65.4071%
Total Hitrate: 96.5659%

40% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
811621 LB hits.
324981 LB critts.
===============
160646 LaB hits.
160646 LaB critts.
===============
21712 LB misses.
6021 LaB misses.
===============
LB Hitrate: 97.39455895782359%
LB Critrate: 38.99773559909424%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 96.38740722518556%
LaB Critrate: 96.38740722518556%
===============
EO uptime: 74.5753%
Total Hitrate: 97.2267%

50% critt rate
1000000 casts done.
815750 LB hits.
407321 LB critts.
===============
161794 LaB hits.
161794 LaB critts.
===============
17583 LB misses.
4873 LaB misses.
===============
LB Hitrate: 97.89003915601566%
LB Critrate: 48.87853955141582%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 97.0762058475883%
LaB Critrate: 97.0762058475883%
===============
EO uptime: 82.1953%
Total Hitrate: 97.7544%

If you see anything that might be flawed, please say so.
I'm sorry for a misunderstanding on how I should display the critt rate, the shown values for critt rates are a little scewed!

Phlis · 06/20/08, 9:43 AM

Well, if you have crits = casts * critrate rather then crits = hits * critrate then you're using a 1 roll system, not a 2 roll system. LO shouldn't be too hard to add, just increase LB casts by 1.2, though I guess depending on how you're simming this, it would be better to say, if you're doing it with rand and nested ifs, it's easy just to add another check

Code assumes 10% hit from talents, 0 hit from gear, I'm alliance, bite me.

 x = rand(100)
 if(EO)
    EO = EO - 1
    if(x <= 99)
       y = rand(100)
       if (y <= critrate)
          LBcrits = LBcrits + 1
          EO = 2
       else
          LBhits = LBhits + 1
       end if

       if (x <= 20)
          z = rand(100)
          if(z <= 99)
             check crit just to refresh EO, don't incriment total hits or total crits.
           end if
       end if
     end if
 else
   if(x <= hitrate)
      check crit
      check LO
    end if
 end if

Anyway, thats how I'd do it, nest that in a for loop that counts up to 5, do a check on whether LaB hits, set EO to 2, nest that in a while loop that incriments by 6 and counts up to 10mil + 2, just to get full rotations. Also, I might add in flame shock, and CL, but meh.

Graze · 06/20/08, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Phlis

Well, if you have crits = casts * critrate rather then crits = hits * critrate then you're using a 1 roll system, not a 2 roll system. LO shouldn't be too hard to add, just increase LB casts by 1.2, though I guess depending on how you're simming this, it would be better to say, if you're doing it with rand and nested ifs, it's easy just to add another check.

It can't critt if it doesn't hit can it? Isn't that what a 2 roll system is?

What I'm doing it I'm putting the "didItCritt" function inside "do this if the "didItHit" function returns true" code block doing another Math.random() there.
The "theoretical" critt rate (the number I match the Math.random() value with) is 0.20, 0.30, 0.40 or 0.50. The displayed "critt rate" value is actual critts / actual casts. Not actual critts / actual hits.

Either I'm doing it right and displying it wrong or vise versa.

Phlis · 06/20/08, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Graze

It can't critt if it doesn't hit can it?

What I'm doing it I'm putting the "didItCritt" function inside "do this if the "didItHit" function returns true" code block doing another Math.random() there.
The "theoretical" critt rate (the number I match the Math.random() value with) is 0.20, 0.30, 0.40 or 0.50. The displayed "critt rate" value is actual critts / actual casts. Not actual critts / actual hits.

Yeah thats essentially the same thing. Nesting the functions that way is what you should be doing, and to add in LO you'd need to seperate out a LB function and LaB function. In LB(), whether didithit is true or not, call a second didithit function on a random 20, basically, and then if that's true call a did it crit to refresh EO. The Problem is if you're didithit function automatically incriments your total hits, you'll have to decrement that, so it doesn't scew your hit%, and the same for the diditcrit function, which would scew your LB crit% to be 20% then it should be.

Graze · 06/20/08, 11:02 AM

Anyway, the purpose of the sim was to display how EO affects your overall hit rate without any hit from gear, as shown, I can only imagine LO affecting the result with a mere fraction of a %. With drastic increase in critt rates, your total hit rate barely adjusts by less than a 10'th of your critt increase.

Just because you can (let's assume itemization allowes you) stack critt until the point where +hit adds 0 to your dps, doesn't mean it's a good idea just because that way you "can" avoid taking hit items.

Unless they add an additional effect to an Elemental shaman critting (again; Fero. Insp.?), it's not gonna be a desireable stat after a certain, (rather low actually) amount.

Daidalos · 06/20/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Graze

Anyway, the purpose of the sim was to display how EO affects your overall hit rate without any hit from gear, as shown, I can only imagine LO affecting the result with a mere fraction of a %. With drastic increase in critt rates, your total hit rate barely adjusts by less than a 10'th of your critt increase.

Just because you can (let's assume itemization allowes you) stack critt until the point where +hit adds 0 to your dps, doesn't mean it's a good idea just because that way you "can" avoid taking hit items.

Unless they add an additional effect to an Elemental shaman critting (again; Fero. Insp.?), it's not gonna be a desireable stat after a certain, (rather low actually) amount.

Looking at my 1 roll results adding in LO added about half a hit to each spell after a LB increasing the total hit average by about .25

Graze · 06/20/08, 12:23 PM

I've added LO support (LO can procc from full resists) and corrected the way critt rate is displayed.

20% critt
LO proccrate: 20.029208011683206%
LO Critrate: 19.999400874722905%
===============
LB Hitrate: 96.40431856172742%
LB Critrate: 20.093257270320365%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 94.76861046277908%
LaB Critrate: 100.0%
===============
EO uptime: 58.952000000000005%
Total Hitrate: 96.1317%

30% critt
LO proccrate: 20.025848010339203%
LO Critrate: 30.257307558634245%
===============
LB Hitrate: 97.08831883532754%
LB Critrate: 29.9902727703076%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 95.8252083495833%
LaB Critrate: 100.0%
===============
EO uptime: 69.6751%
Total Hitrate: 96.87780000000001%

40% critt
LO proccrate: 20.033648013459203%
LO Critrate: 39.945611481488136%
===============
LB Hitrate: 97.65387906155163%
LB Critrate: 39.9756937361603%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 96.80560638878723%
LaB Critrate: 100.0%
===============
EO uptime: 78.5462%
Total Hitrate: 97.5125%

50% critt
LO proccrate: 20.06820802728321%
LO Critrate: 50.12467485873172%
===============
LB Hitrate: 98.0971592388637%
LB Critrate: 50.177742221178356%
===============
LaB Hitrate: 97.51360497279006%
LaB Critrate: 100.0%
===============
EO uptime: 85.8585%
Total Hitrate: 97.9999%

This is what I got when I added LO proccs(LO can procc from full resists), even these numbers assume LO proccs cannot miss, which is probably incorrect but I made it so because of convenience.

So 10% critt adds less than 1% to hit at +0 hit from gear, according to my assumptions being correct;

Spells have a 1% miss chance whether EO is active or not.
You gain +9% hit from talents. making it 0.83 + 0.09 base hit.
LO can (still) procc from full resists.
LO can trigger, but not consume, Elemental Focus.
LO cannot be resisted.
LO critt according to "normal" Lightning Bolt rules.
LaB cannot procc LO.
LaB have a 100% critt chance.
Elemental Mastery is not used.

Are we approaching this from the wrong angle?

Torgol · 06/20/08, 12:38 PM

The more I think about EO and the preliminary math that's been done so far, the more I can't help thinking that there are easier, more elegant ways to accomplish their goal. If they really want to make spell hit an unneeded stat for Elementals, changing EO to say something like "Causes your spell critical strikes to grant you the Elemental Oath effect, which increases your spell hit chance by 100% for 10 seconds" would do the job much more simply. A 10 second window should be enough time to guarantee that it stays up more or less permanently, with the crit rate we usually have and the guaranteed crit every ~8 seconds with good use of FS and LavB. That should at least be reliable enough that you wouldn't feel compelled to gear for hit anyway.

Of course, I also can't help wondering that if they're planning to eliminate the need for spell hit on gear for shaman, why did they nerf our +hit talent from 6% to 3%? For that matter, why not simply increase the +hit we get from talents to the point where we can cap from talents alone? Something about all of this just doesn't quite add up. But, it's alpha, and our information is incomplete. *shrug*