The tooltips confirm this as having been changed; my mp5 has dramatically decreased. The other players that I have been raiding with have reported the same, and we have determined that it is not just a tooltip bug.
To quote from The Disc/Holy Priest discussion thread
From a Shaman perspective, the only thing that really bothers me about the change is that it doesn't do anything to help the mana problems we're reportedly having at level 80. I'm generally a firm proponent of buffing people to equality rather than nerfing, but it sounds as though it's less a matter of equality and more a matter of simply being able to function.
From a Shaman perspective, the only thing that really bothers me about the change is that it doesn't do anything to help the mana problems we're reportedly having at level 80. I'm generally a firm proponent of buffing people to equality rather than nerfing, but it sounds as though it's less a matter of equality and more a matter of simply being able to function.
This is quite similar to the response in early BC to the outcry of priests; they did nothing to priests, and instead nerfed paladins. I agree with you completely - I do not believe that the issue was simply that resto druids (or paladins, for that matter) were too sustainable, but also that resto shaman and priests did not seem sustainable enough for the encounters.
[quote=Shifft;908779]While I can somewhat see the problems with shaman mana efficiency right now, I honestly don't see it nearly as much as everyone else here seems to be complaining about. It was bad when I was in Sunwell gear gemmed with haste/spell power, yes, but as I upgraded my Sunwell pieces more and more to heroic blues and a couple of naxx10/badge epics stacked with int, mp5 and crit, I've noticed I can heal for a very long time without any mana problems.
QUOTE]
You are the first shaman I've seen who hasn't had mana problems. Are you healing at level 80? If so could you tell me which spells/rotations you are using? The level 80 shaman I am using is a premade copy and does have crap pvp gear I am slowly replacing so I know that is part of my issue. But there are several shamans with MUCH better gear who are also having the same mana issues.
If things don't change before release, and I decide to level my shaman then I don't intent to learn the higher ranks of heals. I'm hoping this "forced" downranking will help with my mana issues.
You are the first shaman I've seen who hasn't had mana problems. Are you healing at level 80? If so could you tell me which spells/rotations you are using? The level 80 shaman I am using is a premade copy and does have crap pvp gear I am slowly replacing so I know that is part of my issue. But there are several shamans with MUCH better gear who are also having the same mana issues.
If things don't change before release, and I decide to level my shaman then I don't intent to learn the higher ranks of heals. I'm hoping this "forced" downranking will help with my mana issues.
It won't. All spells, healing and otherwise, have been moved to be based on a % of base mana. Whatever rank you use will cost the same mana, whether you learn new ranks or not. Downranking healing penalties are also far more severe than previously. There's no reason to downrank anymore.
If things don't change before release, and I decide to level my shaman then I don't intent to learn the higher ranks of heals. I'm hoping this "forced" downranking will help with my mana issues.
You realise that the spells ranks are all the same cost now? (well, actually the lower rank spells cost more - those not top rank at lvl70).
Blizzard moved to a model of % of base mana, not absolute spell cost (which was presumable the % of base mana at the level you got that spell).
Healing Wave R11 (70) to R13 (80) all cost 25% of base mana.
So, your plan is somewhat flawed. (Unless the new push for beta changed something today that I'm not aware of)
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
Well look at that, it does. I just read a post in World of Matticus where he brought it up making it sound like they had changed it in Beta to match the tooltip then. But if no one actually playing a shaman has seen these changes, then I'll just forget it. Maybe they just mean party in a raid kind of way, not group.
Just for further confirmation on the Chain heal bouncing, this was originally changed a while back to prevent chain heals from bouncing to random people *not* in your party or raid if you were intending to heal people who *are* in your party or raid. The upshot is that raid healing is not affected in the slightest, but chain heal will not accidentally put you in combat by bouncing to some random player who is nearby farming elites.
Of course, if you intended to heal someone out of party by targetting them, all bets are off and chain heal will consider any player in range as a legal target.
You are the first shaman I've seen who hasn't had mana problems. Are you healing at level 80? If so could you tell me which spells/rotations you are using? The level 80 shaman I am using is a premade copy and does have crap pvp gear I am slowly replacing so I know that is part of my issue. But there are several shamans with MUCH better gear who are also having the same mana issues.
If things don't change before release, and I decide to level my shaman then I don't intent to learn the higher ranks of heals. I'm hoping this "forced" downranking will help with my mana issues.
Yes, I'm healing at level 80. I pretty much use whatever spell I feel fits the situation, although I find myself using chain heal much less than at 70 and using LHW a ton more. With 2-piece T7, glyph and talents, my water shield procs give me about 600 mana, almost the entire cost of a LHW. Obviously chain heal has its place still, but I find I'm actually looking for situations where people are grouped up taking damage rather than just mindlessly spamming it. I use healing wave sometimes, but mostly only for tank healing. Keep Riptide up on tanks mostly, haven't really used it much for raid healing.
It won't. All spells, healing and otherwise, have been moved to be based on a % of base mana. Whatever rank you use will cost the same mana, whether you learn new ranks or not. Downranking healing penalties are also far more severe than previously. There's no reason to downrank anymore.
/ facepalm ... I knew that but wasn't thinking.
Thanks Shifft, it gives me hope that with better gear I'll be able to heal. To be honest, healing in beta has been pretty discouraging. I also switched to primary LHW (single target raid), chain heal (bunched), and LHW/HW/Riptide tank. Although in my case I couldn't last long in the fight.
How was your healing compared to the priests and druids? Are you comparable?
Thanks Shifft, it gives me hope that with better gear I'll be able to heal. To be honest, healing in beta has been pretty discouraging. I also switched to primary LHW (single target raid), chain heal (bunched), and LHW/HW/Riptide tank. Although in my case I couldn't last long in the fight.
How was your healing compared to the priests and druids? Are you comparable?
Don't really know, I haven't been running meters. We've done Naxx with only 2 shamans healing, as well as paladin/shaman combo many times with no more trouble than running with druid/priest healers, so it seems ok.
Isn't healing meters about the best way to find out some data which does not tell one anything?
I mean the only "effective" throughput test I could think of was to switch mods to account for overhealing and then let two people spam each other as good as they can and compare stats of that.
But that's not different from a theoretical examination, on paper.
And other comparison ingame hinges on too many non-healerish factors to make healing meters a useful comparing device. It's already stretching to say you can compare damage dealers from meters due to how their damage dealing capabilities are impacted in each fight (and differently depending on class and spec), but for healing the argument completely goes out of the window.
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Isn't healing meters about the best way to find out some data which does not tell one anything?
I mean the only "effective" throughput test I could think of was to switch mods to account for overhealing and then let two people spam each other as good as they can and compare stats of that.
But that's not different from a theoretical examination, on paper.
And other comparison ingame hinges on too many non-healerish factors to make healing meters a useful comparing device. It's already stretching to say you can compare damage dealers from meters due to how their damage dealing capabilities are impacted in each fight (and differently depending on class and spec), but for healing the argument completely goes out of the window.
I disagree so completely. Healing meters tell a lot, in TBC one of the main aspects of healing has been the ability to put out a high and consistent HPS, it mattered that you healed, not so much who you healed or when.
Last patch was again very disappointing for shamans, no changes, no fixes, nothing. Starting to get a bit anxious here. None of the trees offer much help to the problems we have nor do they change how we play shamans at all. The number of new abilities is as almost as lacklustering as when TBC came. The top talents sure are again very disappointing, thunderstorm maybe being the only exception for PvP purposes.
Hi.
Can someone good at math help me figure out the following:
Level 80 3/3 Improved Water Shield (100% on LHW crit to consume 1 watershield globe - 460 mana) 3/3 Improved Shields (15% more mana back on Watershield - 460 total) 5/5 Tidal Mastery (5% Crit) 2/2 Blessing of the Eternals (4% crit)
How often do you have to cast LHW for crit rating to become more valuable than MP5 ?
And how much of the 2 stats are needed (ratio) ?
Did some calcualtions myself, can anyone confirm ?
30% spellcrit * 460 mana = ~138 mana pr.cast
138 mana pr.cast * 3,33 cast pr.5sec = 460 mp5
Now if we remove the 9% talent crits that you will have regardless
of mp5 or critgear
21% spellcrit * 460 mana = ~96,6 mana pr.cast
87,4 mana pr.cast * 3,33 cast pr.5sec = 321,6 mp5
So 21% spellcrit from gear equals 321 mp5.
Dont know on lvl 80 how much mp5 your pvp/pve gear will have.
But as the lvl 80 pvp gear looks like atm, it looks like the elemental gear
will be bether than the resto gear, since resto only have mp5.
In a senario where you heal your partner or yourself once every 5 sec, you will have ~87 mp5
In a PVP senario, LHW and Riptide will be the 2 spells that i will use the most. And
1-2 cast pr 5/sec is not unusual.
Looks like it will be very up to the situation that you are in.
The fun part about going for elemental pvp-gear, is that you have gear for 2 types of spec ^^
Hi.
Can someone good at math help me figure out the following:
Level 80 3/3 Improved Water Shield (100% on LHW crit to consume 1 watershield globe - 460 mana) 3/3 Improved Shields (15% more mana back on Watershield - 460 total) 5/5 Tidal Mastery (5% Crit) 2/2 Blessing of the Eternals (4% crit)
How often do you have to cast LHW for crit rating to become more valuable than MP5 ?
And how much of the 2 stats are needed (ratio) ?
Neither one. Mp5 is just too expensive stat. Allways been.
If you need mana stack int. Gem int. Beg for more.
I leave crit thing to another post.
1 int cost same as 0.4mp5.
You have two 10% modifier to int Ancestral Knowledge and Blessing of Kings.
Let say those are additive(Worst case scenario.)
If encouter take 5minute.
0.4mp5 give then 60*0.4mp5 = 24mana.
1 Int give then 15 * (1+0.1+0.1) = 18mana.
If you cast mana tide you get 0.24*18 = 4.32mana more.
If you got mana battery then you get 0.0025*300*18 = 13.5mana more.
So int is better absolute mana before 900s or 15minute mark.
Int also give crit and spell power.
1int = 1.2 * 45.9/166.66 = 0.33 crit rating.
1nt = 1.*2 0.15spell power. = 0.18spell power.
Summarum.(5minute fight)
Int is 1.5mp5
Int is 0.33crit rating.
Int is 0.18spell power.
Total: Int is worth of 4.23 item points but cost only one.
Allways when you are mana limited Int is best stat.
I din't even count water elemental regen.
Edit: Tc and pvp is totally different business. I don't even poke to it.
If you where to spam LHW you would get 65 MP5 out from 195 Crit rating.
Around 40 MP5 if you where to cast around 2 healing spells every 5 sec
Well, you loose some regen but gain a bit of healing from getting more crits, not to mention the benefit of our other crit based talents. I imagine it will depend on your playstyle. Moving forward to naxx gear though, you'll be loosing pretty nice set bonuses, as well as alot of wasted budget points from wearing gear with hit rating. So yes short term, no long term maybe?
Last edited by Woofermazing : 09/25/08 at 8:44 AM.
If you where to spam LHW you would get 65 MP5 out from 195 Crit rating.
Around 40 MP5 if you where to cast around 2 healing spells every 5 sec
1) We dont spam LHW (except PVP, and PVP gear IS crit heavy), so you need to cal assuming larger casts (2-2.5 sec depending on the casts)
2) DOnt forget thundering strikes, which will be another 5% crit. Nothing to sneeze at...
3) You are not including the biggest factor, the GCD to refresh WS.
Assuming 35% crit rate, and 2.25s casts avg, you will have ot recast WS every 20 seconds or so. I cant say how spammy we are in Naxx and other LK fights, but in sunwell 3 GCD every min is actually asking alot.
Right now gemming for Int (yellow), int/mp5(red) and SP/mp5 (blue) looks like our best bet for raids. It might even be better to skip the blue gems and stick with all yellow and drop the bonuses if they are healing.
Yeps, even after the nerf to manarbatteries Int is by far the best stat, 4,5mp5 from the battery, 1,5 from Mana tide, 360mana/minutes*12, 12,5 crit rating and 3,5 spellpower from one Int gem, still around 38 item budget points where other gems are only 20.
And with our lack of mana, I can't see us using haste gems, which is the other very efficient stat around.
We might actually see Int on weapon again, something not used by healers for a long long time.
1) We dont spam LHW (except PVP, and PVP gear IS crit heavy), so you need to cal assuming larger casts (2-2.5 sec depending on the casts)
2) DOnt forget thundering strikes, which will be another 5% crit. Nothing to sneeze at...
3) You are not including the biggest factor, the GCD to refresh WS.
Assuming 35% crit rate, and 2.25s casts avg, you will have ot recast WS every 20 seconds or so. I cant say how spammy we are in Naxx and other LK fights, but in sunwell 3 GCD every min is actually asking alot.
Right now gemming for Int (yellow), int/mp5(red) and SP/mp5 (blue) looks like our best bet for raids. It might even be better to skip the blue gems and stick with all yellow and drop the bonuses if they are healing.
The lvl 80 (Hateful Gladiator Ringmail) Resto gear got 0 critrating.
Think the discussion derailed here!
I give a big fat care about pve. Im only into PVP and therefor i only discuss pvp gear (stated pvp gear several times)
My question in the start was: Will the Elemental PVP gear be bether in PVP cus of all the critrating, or will
the Restoration PVP gear be best, tho it have 0 critrating but alot of mp5.
The answer have been aswered along the way, and no. Elemental PVP Gear will not be more mana efficient than Restoration PVP gear, but its all situational. All the crit will proc alot of neat resto talents.
And what i fancy alot, is that by going for the Elemental PVP gear, as restoration, you wont be a bad healer, and you can use the same gear if you would go Elemental in IE. 5v5 !
Earlier in the thread, it was stated: This is formula how healing spells work.
direct = [base value + (cast time /3.5) * 1.88 * spell power] * talents * buffs
hot = [base value + (hot time / 15)* 1.88 * spell power] * talents * buffs
Blizzard has stated that Chain Heal will still remain our primary healing spell. Then why do have to spend up to 19 pts buffing HW and LHW with no effect on Chain Heal?
5 - Improved Healing Wave
5 - Tidal Waves
3 - Ancestral Awakening
3 - Healing Way
3 - Improved Water Shield
Is a 0/20/51 build feasible, with not taking most of these talents?
(For some reason, I cannot log into the Blizzard beta boards. Do you have to be in the beta to have access?)
Earlier in the thread, it was stated: This is formula how healing spells work.
direct = [base value + (cast time /3.5) * 1.88 * spell power] * talents * buffs
hot = [base value + (hot time / 15)* 1.88 * spell power] * talents * buffs
You are likely excluding talents. Don't forget, we have Purification (multiply by 1.1). I forgot this MANY times when calculating our heal ability. Perhaps paladins have a talent that improves their heal spells?
09/24/08, 7:53 PM
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